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http://www.zbrushcen...4-Are-YOU-ready

I see a lot of features copied from 3dc. How about 3dc copy some features, too. I'm sure there are a lot of ideas there 3dc can copy.

This is precisely what I was thinking. Almost like they saw the Kitbashing videos and said "Hey we can do that too by tweaking the Sub tools."

Nevertheless, some of the UI changes have implemented ideas/concepts from theirs because some of those helping Andrew with the UI, are ZB users too. I'm just surprised how much Pixologic copies...most of R4 is some replication of features already in 3DC

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This is precisely what I was thinking. Almost like they saw the Kitbashing videos and said "Hey we can do that too by tweaking the Sub tools." Nevertheless, some of the UI changes have implemented ideas/concepts from theirs because some of those helping Andrew with the UI, are ZB users too. I'm just surprised how much Pixologic copies...most of R4 is some replication of features already in 3DC

Most well-established applikation have that policy. First build a big community, and than try to hold that community happy with functions/ ideas, which they can buy or copy from innovative start-ups.

The innovation-spirit in their first steps is forced out by the competition with other companies. And in this case it is good to have all functions (of other apps),too, when you struggling to be the best in market.

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FiberMesh, ShadowBox e.g.

Personally, I'd prefer that Andrew didn't waste precious development time with another Hair/Fur utility. I'd rather the focus be on boosting raw Sculpting and Painting performance and restructuring the app (in V4 cycle) to be more of a unified environment (No Rooms), and with an Outliner panel, to keep track of all scene assets easily.

As for Shadowbox, that was actually a copy of 3D Coat's Sketch tool. Pixologic just took it a few steps further. Andrew then enhanced the Sketch tool to offer some of those additions.

Like?

Like have some type of Layer Morph system, which allows you to store mesh states that can increase or decrease the shape with a slider, and even use masks on that morph. A good example would be using different type of pore brushes on the face, and going back later to dial the effect down or brush areas the you want to mask parts of it out.

We can do that to some degree in the Paint Room, with the different layers, but it's neither as simple or as elegant as it is in MB or ZB...plus there are no layer masks.

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Personally, I'd prefer that Andrew didn't waste precious development time with another Hair/Fur utility. I'd rather the focus be on boosting raw Sculpting and Painting performance and restructuring the app (in V4 cycle) to be more of a unified environment (No Rooms), and with an Outliner panel, to keep track of all scene assets easily.

As for Shadowbox, that was actually a copy of 3D Coat's Sketch tool. Pixologic just took it a few steps further. Andrew then enhanced the Sketch tool to offer some of those additions.

Yes, youre right.

With an one man show development it is probably impossible to implement all those full-package-functions (edit: although im curios about the features Raul will take with from Cuba ) .

But no rooms? Imho it is much clearer for understandig the workflow.

How would that unifiied Enviroment look like? Are there some concepts for that?

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Personally, I'd prefer that Andrew didn't waste precious development time with another Hair/Fur utility. I'd rather the focus be on boosting raw Sculpting and Painting performance and restructuring the app (in V4 cycle) to be more of a unified environment (No Rooms), and with an Outliner panel, to keep track of all scene assets easily.

100% agree ! :)

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I'm testing this new zb build, all day now.

It looks like it copied 3dcoat... this isn't true IMO.

Qremesher / retopo is an interesting engine that provides much better meshes than 3dcoat/autopo

Very clean loops almost ready for rigging.

Yes, IMO, far better than 3dcoat. I already found the tricks LOL, loop guides are forcing topology. We never saw it happening in 3dc.

There're also some new implementations like a much better editor for manual retopo. And a more powerful boolean-dynamesh engine.

I think, it's the best ever zb build. Too early to talk about bugs, I already found a few minor ones. LOL

These are good days. Both 3dcoat and zb at their best.

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some great new features! Mostly I'd like to see the spline tools. Looks like theres a lot of power is having splines that can morph shapes, and tubes into place.

However... we have such a powerful tool in 3dc, some years now. It's more powerful actually. You know, you can edit these meshes-for-splines in an external editor, make a fully decimated version - good topology, (here I use the chain thing as example), then use this, export the mesh as splines, replace it with the Hi Density spline mesh. Import the low dense mesh in retopo and have a nice topology automatically.

Do the same in zbrush ... if you dare LOL

I actually found a way to do this. LOL again.

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restructuring the app (in V4 cycle) to be more of a unified environment (No Rooms), and with an Outliner panel, to keep track of all scene assets easily.

I'm totally agree , this is the actuall weak point of 3D Coat , this is why it doesn't look like as professionnal as it deserves.

I would add , the support to a true multi UV like Mari does, not only the support of UV sets.

Where i'm disagree is about the support of Hair i would prefere to have it in 3D Coat, here at our studio we can use ZBrush to make some grooming,

then proceduraly scatter it on a surface and it works.

I'm allready fine with the modeling tools in 3D Coat,i don't need more.

I worked with zbrush so many times in production (i own a license as well) and personnaly i find 3D Coat more logical.

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Hmmm I in fact find the rooms a good thing. I personally dislike very much the way zbrush has every single thing clumped up in a single space. So many menus make me dizzy. What should be improved in my opinion is the way a retopology mesh adapts to a voxel/surface mesh. Andrew already made some improvements with the pose/move tool so it adapts, but we need further adaptation to brushing so we can use a mesh that already has uvs and good topology as base. This communication between the retopology room and voxel room would be perfect (perhaps to even have the retopology mesh as a "ghost" in the voxel room).

Thinking it more deeply... I would leave the paint, retopo and voxel rooms untouched (with more connectivity only), but maybe the sculpt and uv room (which are the least used I believe), could be definitly discarded and merged into a more robust and organized retopo room.

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FiberMesh, ShadowBox e.g.

We had "Shadowbox" before they did. See the Sketch tool. True, we don't have the fiber solution right now. Andrew talked about creating hair in 3DC before Pixo ever mentioned it but decided not to do it.

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I do have to say that this latest release (R4) may have enough Retopo capability (they copied the Strokes tool, essentially) to remove 3D Coat from many ZB artist's workflow altogether. I am perplexed as to the amount of accolades all these new features in ZB4 get compared to the lack thereof when released in 3D Coat. The Kitbashing toolset gets no love...even in this community, but as soon as it gets copied into ZBrush's bag of toys...it's suddenly this totally amazing innovation!

Seems to me that the one thing Andrew could do to make up ground and close the gap, is to shift from the current pursuit of new features (that Pixologic will just copy and be lauded for all "their" innovations) and instead make it his mission to take ZBrush's performance crown. THAT would kick the door in, and get everyone's attention.

I'll say again...Andrew has an ace up his sleeve...CUDA. Update it to v5, which is multi-platform (Mac and Linux too), and broaden it's usage throughout the application, to all brushing and transform operations. Let NVidia's development behemoth do all the heavy lifting for Andrew. The new Kepler cards are BEASTS!

The GTX 680 has 3x as many CUDA cores (1500+) as the previous generation of cards, and with relatively affordable 4GB (VRAM) versions. Andrew simply needs to tap into all that performance, just waiting to be leveraged in his favor.

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I do have to say that this latest release (R4) may have enough Retopo capability (they copied the Strokes tool, essentially) to remove 3D Coat from many ZB artist's workflow altogether. I am perplexed as to the amount of accolades all these new features in ZB4 get compared to the lack thereof when released in 3D Coat. The Kitbashing toolset gets no love...even in this community, but as soon as it gets copied into ZBrush's bag of toys...it's suddenly this totally amazing innovation!

Zbrush has a powerful marketing division. All the new features of 3DC get lost in the short Release-notes., there is no attention grabber in the presentation.

Maybe they plan it for the V4 release, but in this state its no comparision to zBrushs marketing.

However it is a basic rule of economics, that you can have the best products available, but without marketing nobody wil notice or buy your products

btw: whats about this michael irvin vid?

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I do have to say that this latest release (R4) may have enough Retopo capability (they copied the Strokes tool, essentially)

Don't say this before trying.

These are not the loop guides we are familiar with.

These loops are forcing geometry as much you like! These produce perfect loops, no spiral results, no tris neither ngons.

This tool works perfectly on very complicated meshes, a hand-fingers already posed, touching the body... yes, this Qremesher managed to do it right. No overlapping faces. Not the expected messing. I'm deeply impressed.

You know what I'm thinking? Pixologic is the master of tool making. It was and still is the reference for all other 3d sculpting apps.

They may adopted some ideas from 3dcoat but the implementation is far better and it obviously uses different and very complicated algorithms.

@BeatKitano

+1

Let's stop this and concentrate on making 3dcoat better. We don't need more tools, we need to see refinement of these tools. Latest build became my favorite. Retopology room needs more love now.

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BTW, I guess a lot of the accolades also has to do with ZBrush updates being free. So, it's largely just the same users gushing about the new goodies they get. Very similar to how it is around here when there are substantial updates. I would be pretty happy too if I were in their shoes.

...You know what I'm thinking? Pixologic is the master of tool making. It was and still is the reference for all other 3d sculpting apps.

They may adopted some ideas from 3dcoat but the implementation is far better and it obviously uses different and very complicated algorithms.

This is the major dilemma for Andrew. On one hand he is hounded with an relentless barrage of feature requests and then he has us long time users asking for fewer features and more refinement. Once the app has grown enough that Andrew can hire more full-time staff, then there will likely be continued progress on both fronts.
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Zbrush has a powerful marketing division. All the new features of 3DC get lost in the short Release-notes., there is no attention grabber in the presentation.

Maybe they plan it for the V4 release, but in this state its no comparision to zBrushs marketing.

YES

They may adopted some ideas from 3dcoat but the implementation is far better and it obviously uses different and very complicated algorithms.

Let's stop this and concentrate on making 3dcoat better. We don't need more tools, we need to see refinement of these tools.

YES

------------------------------------------------

There is a man building a house. He digs deep and builds his house on rock. The floods come, and the water tries to wash the house away. But the flood cannot move the house, because the house was built well (strong).

And there is a man that does not build his house on rock. When the floods come, the house falls down easily. And the house is completely destroyed

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I, too, have used Zbrush from its first introduction - and used it heavily. I liked its unique approach to the problem of presenting complicated 3D scenes using what was really just "basic" hardware - the software, itself, did the work.

I also liked the original idea that not everything must be "true 3D", but 2.5D suffices well, many times. The software interface made immediate sense to me, although I thought some of the names of things were strange. It was probably the most stable and trustworthy 3D software I had ever used.

The speed and stability were a direct product of its software engineering - meticulously thought out and tested (or it could not have been so stable).

In the first stages of development, I think ZBrush was the work of a single man, Ofer Alon. He put his very different view of things directly into his application - just as Andrew did with his very unique approach to working with 3D content. Both ZBrush and 3D-Coat were fairly simple, to begin with - and grew much more complex over the years.

Pixologic added more talented staff to cope with increased complexity and user demands. Pilgway has yet to do this.

Someone at Pixologic must also be a very talented and efficient product manager. I believe it is impossible to keep up with user demands and product complexity without enlarging a staff, considerably. This of course, cannot happen without increased profits and the corresponding marketing savvy. Pixologic has demonstrated success in both of these areas.

And, I might add, they thoroughly recognize to whom they are marketing their product.

Pixologic has discovered what it takes to survive and to thrive in a consumer driven marketplace. They started by marketing to non-professionals, succeeded in evangelizing some notable professionals, and continue to profit by supporting their original market target and user base, with the recommendations of those recruited professionals.

In the future, we will see fewer and fewer software manufacturers that continue to thrive - and to even exist - without a similar realization and marketing track.

It's unrealistic to think that one man, working alone, could have pulled off what Pixologic has now accomplished by means of its very talented, hard-working and visionary team.

Greg Smith

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All the below are just my opinions and 2 cents worth.

Photoshop has the biggest share of the market in it's field. There are other programs that work as well but Photoshop is integrated into industry. I use Twistedbrush which I find more artistic friendly. (my opinion). TwistedBrush is a very good paint program and the most bug free software I ever used but TB will never have the same large customer base as Photoshop. That is just the way it works once a piece of software gets integrated into the industry unless they make some really poor decisions.

Even Andrew puts the default editor as Photoshop and supports PSD files for many of the image saving operations in 3DCoat...

Zbrush is integrated into the industry.

The smartest thing Andrew can do is make the upcoming version 4 as free of bugs as possible before releasing so he can capture the share of market that is out there and not lose any of the smaller customer base that is available...

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It is no longer "The Industry" which sustains Adobe Photoshop as a viable product. Just go to any Barnes & Noble Bookstore, go to the "Computer" section and look at the number of Photoshop books which are on the shelf - which cater to the consumer marketplace. And those shelves have been stocked this way for about 10 to 12 years.

Industry professionals are not responsible for the proliferation of Photoshop sales. Photoshop has become ubiquitous because of its extremely large, non-professional user base.

Adobe realizes this trend, which has not influenced all of their software suite with the same success - but has begun to act upon this singular realization by "popularizing" its entire software suite - once the domain of the professional - with the introduction of the monthly subscription. $49.95 per month gets you all of their intellectual property. To use, at least.

This is an act which will influence the entire CG software industry.

If Adobe is going this way, and Apple is going this way (Apple Motion for $99 and Final Cut Pro for $299 - and all of the other consumer priced items in the AppStore) - you can bet nearly everyone will be going this way.

Greg Smith

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All the below are just my opinions and 2 cents worth.

Photoshop has the biggest share of the market in it's field. There are other programs that work as well but Photoshop is integrated into industry. I use Twistedbrush which I find more artistic friendly. (my opinion). TwistedBrush is a very good paint program and the most bug free software I ever used but TB will never have the same large customer base as Photoshop. That is just the way it works once a piece of software gets integrated into the industry unless they make some really poor decisions.

Even Andrew puts the default editor as Photoshop and supports PSD files for many of the image saving operations in 3DCoat...

Zbrush is integrated into the industry.

The smartest thing Andrew can do is make the upcoming version 4 as free of bugs as possible before releasing so he can capture the share of market that is out there and not lose any of the smaller customer base that is available...

I hope Raul is able to make it back from Cuba, and I personally think Andrew needs to bring another clone of himself onboard to handle just the bugfixing duties. That could take a lot of stress & wear and tear off of him, plus enable them to spend more time with each feature/tool, so that it is well thought out and polished.

I agree with Beat on the unrefined nature of things...but in all fairness, I think most of that is confined to the Voxel Sculpting toolset. The rest of the application could thrive on it's own, as a 3D Paint/UV Editing and Retopo app. This might be a strategy that could work with Greg's view of things. Something lightweight, that could be affordable enough to appeal to more ZB and MB users (who don't want or need the Voxel Sculpting tools) and to to the tablet market as well.

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