V4.1 BETA (experimental 4.1.17D)

[ajz3d]

But AUTOPO is a very self-explanatory term. On my first contact with 3D Coat back in May I didn't have any doubts what this option is for. And English is only my second language.

I think it's a very catchy phrase that just asks for a superscripted TM as a suffix.

[BeatKitano]

On the various forum I visit, people rarely say autopo. You know why ? Because retopology is common known term, so autoretopology (the function) is "learned".

Almost no one notice the slight alteration in AutoPo. The cut doesn't register, most people simply read autopo and register autoretopo (with the exception of those unfamiliar with the retopology concept).

This is all a matter of target audience, 3dcoat is for total beginner, or begginer and more experienced users ?

The answer is conditioning those kind of alterations. And I'm still standing by AbnRanger side on that matter (not specialy autopo, like I said I don't really care but the suggested changes are making sense to me and I've been saying it for quite some times now).

Another example:

we have the voxel room, which is by default in voxel mode (if not using the startup menu), so far ok.

So we have a what, volume (voxel mesh, voxel model ?) in the viewport. Ok.

Then we switch to surface mode (in the voxel room, what ?).

So we have what, a surface (surface mesh, surface model ?) in the viewport. Ok.

See: real lack of convention and/or duplicated names (this room should be called sculpt simply put), generating ton of confusion for new users.

The software is so full of features new users really don't need weird/duplicated names to make the learning curve steeper imho.

This is something that was largely discussed during the mockup phase of the ui overhaul, unfortunately nothing came of it.

Do the test: look at some conversations between new users asking questions about that room and the answers, there's always names bouncing, no one have a real SOLID convention on calling the meshes in this room depending on the mode.

Take zbrush: subtools. We don't really care if it's a voxel based model, or a surface representation of a voxel model (in fact same as 3dc), ofc it's a weird name forced on the user, but it's self explaining and easily adopted because it's a real convention.

Mudbox ? Mesh simply.

This also is reflected in the software, some tooltips are calling things different names in different places. Weird.

[unity2k]

I do not like Autopo, as in German "po" is your ass! Add to to this that every other software package I'm using that deals with retopology calls it retopology. No one in the industry says, "Hey can I get your input on po'ing this model?" Should you be at Siggraph again this year, will people come up and tell you how much they love your po tools - this has way to many weird undertones for us German speakers.

[Tony Nemo]

Rather like Danish speed limit signs to English speakers (speed = fart)

[ajz3d]

I guess Autopo was decided because it was a "proprietary" point, something to sell as a new unique feature

That's what I always thought, a term representing a proprietary technology (though I always read it in a slightly different way: AuTopo) . Perhaps that's why it was capitalized and made into something short, with "TO" syllable being shared between Auto and Topo, to draw attention.

Anyway, I can live with either AUTOPO or AutoRetopo or anything you guys come up with. All I wanted to say is that AUTOPO isn't really -that- confusing.

[TimmyZDesign]

I totally agree with AbnRanger and Beatkitano. There should be consistent names for EVERYTHING in 3D-Coat. Also, there should be no misspelled words. I am actually still confused about the "Materials" names, and "Carcass" name. I have avoided using some features because I am not totally clear about what they do. I like the tooltips, but there is strange grammar and misspelled words there, so those can be confusing too. AbnRanger did a great job of spending time to find many of the mistakes and corrected them. These changes should be added in the next Beta.

I like "Auto-retopo".

[ajz3d]

There's always approximately 2-3 seconds of delay when switching tools in Retopo Room. Switching tools in Voxel Room or Paint Room doesn't have this lag.

I've noticed this doesn't always happen. For example, I started 3D Coat a few moments ago and I'm switching tools in the Retopo Room now, but there's no delay at all. I will keep working without restarting the application to see if the lag returns and in what circumstances.

[geo_n]

autopo roboto groboto nemoto

Please change carcass term. I never understood why it is what it is.

[AbnRanger]

On the various forum I visit, people rarely say autopo. You know why ? Because retopology is common known term, so autoretopology (the function) is "learned".

Almost no one notice the slight alteration in AutoPo. The cut doesn't register, most people simply read autopo and register autoretopo (with the exception of those unfamiliar with the retopology concept).

This is all a matter of target audience, 3dcoat is for total beginner, or begginer and more experienced users ?

The answer is conditioning those kind of alterations. And I'm still standing by AbnRanger side on that matter (not specialy autopo, like I said I don't really care but the suggested changes are making sense to me and I've been saying it for quite some times now).

Another example:

we have the voxel room, which is by default in voxel mode (if not using the startup menu), so far ok.

So we have a what, volume (voxel mesh, voxel model ?) in the viewport. Ok.

Then we switch to surface mode (in the voxel room, what ?).

So we have what, a surface (surface mesh, surface model ?) in the viewport. Ok.

See: real lack of convention and/or duplicated names (this room should be called sculpt simply put), generating ton of confusion for new users.

The software is so full of features new users really don't need weird/duplicated names to make the learning curve steeper imho.

This is something that was largely discussed during the mockup phase of the ui overhaul, unfortunately nothing came of it.

Do the test: look at some conversations between new users asking questions about that room and the answers, there's always names bouncing, no one have a real SOLID convention on calling the meshes in this room depending on the mode.

Take zbrush: subtools. We don't really care if it's a voxel based model, or a surface representation of a voxel model (in fact same as 3dc), ofc it's a weird name forced on the user, but it's self explaining and easily adopted because it's a real convention.

Mudbox ? Mesh simply.

This also is reflected in the software, some tooltips are calling things different names in different places. Weird.

I agree with the Voxel room naming. These all may seem like small issues, but together they add up and communicate "UNPOLISHED" (especially the 2 different Materials Panels) or not yet refined to the point of being a production-capable app...even though it is. I thought it was a good move to name the old SCULPT room, TWEAK (room). Very descriptive and not confusing to a new user. I wholeheartedly agree about the Voxel Room. It made sense when V3 was officially released, but it's now grown into a fully Split sculpting paradigm. I would submit for consideration, calling it the ADVANCED SCULPT Room/Workspace ("Adv. Sculpt" on the tab, for short). This way, I don't feel I have to keep saying Voxel Volume mode. In the Advanced Sculpting room, when you say "in Voxel Mode," there would be no confusion for a new user. It would also communicate to someone considering a purchase, that Voxels are not the only sculpting platform. They have options.

Just some thoughts. 3D Coat is a really deep application, and the more comfortable a trial user feels in the learning process, the more prone they will be to making the purchase and using it for their work.

[BeatKitano]

. It would also communicate to someone considering a purchase, that Voxels are not the only sculpting platform. They have options.

Just some thoughts. 3D Coat is a really deep application, and the more comfortable a trial user feels in the learning process, the more prone they will be to making the purchase and using it for their work.

I SO concur, people talking about the software on other board don't even know we have a live dynamesh in. They think it's only voxel based, a real flaw in marketing strategy as this is the only dynamic tesselation software which suppports multi million polygons counts on the market... And they often try it AFTER we do a small demonstration of the liveclay system...

SAY IT !

[AbnRanger]

autopo roboto groboto nemoto

Please change carcass term. I never understood why it is what it is.

Domo Arigato, Mr. Autopo?

[Carlosan]

3DC have a great grown potential & V4 is coming to be a solid rock

my pov being a relative new user

3dc is dragging old builds naming conventions and looks like there is no time to make an effort to change it.

The dev are focused atm to killerbugs and the work done is frankly amazing

Will be the next step in the roadmap to make a software cleanup ?

sculpt room = tweak room

voxel room = sculpt room

voxeltree (?) = no idea but other

At tools UI... Surface Submenu below Voxels tools -in between objects(?) and commands(?)

etcetc

--------------------------------------------

-> I propose to open a new post titled

naming conventions

to put all the name changes needed by the community

help doing a good brainstorm

and just to do one and clear request to Andrew

regards

[dfp123]

I am glad to see discussions about unifying the 3dcoat naming conventions with a standard convention. It is definitely a stumbling block for new users.

Recently, I needed to give an explanation about the 3dcoat workflow, what the difference is between the rooms and where to find essential commands ("Autopo") to a seasoned vfx pro. A few questions, I wasn't able to answer because the terminology and workflow is still a bit vague "carcass", "sculpt mode in the voxel room verses the sculpt room".

I hope the new version of 3dcoat is geared toward creating an interface so that the new user has an easier time jumping right in. Also, what I think will be helpfull when v4 is released, that there are a series of video tutorials created that show the 3dcoat process (steps that need to be taken to create a model, retopology, uvs, painting and export) and gives an underlying explantion of the 3dcoat working philosophy (the difference between rooms, what processes are worked in which rooms, and the different sculpting methods). I loved Greg's rat videos, the ghost videos, Eric Kunzendorf's and The Candyfloss Kid's Vimeo videos, and there are a number of other really valuable tutorials. But there needs to be a comparable tutorial set available when v4 is released using v4, with links to them from most main pages.

These videos, the standard naming conventions and the streamlined workspace will help get 3dcoat in more hands. I love this software and would love to see it get in more hands. These recent discussions are a positive step in the right direction.

Thanks for all the dedication and hard work in making a GREAT product!

[Zeddicus]

I see what Andrew was thinking, which was obviously Au-topo. I think a lot of folks read it as Auto-po though. The last two letters of Auto and the first two letters of Topo are the same, so AUTOPO is actually a witty combination of the two that forms a new unique name, which is something you want for a proprietary feature meant to draw people to your application. I still like Auto-Topo which is a compromise between Auto-Retopo and Au-Topo... unless you pronounce it Awe-Toe-Toe-Poe instead of Awe-Toe-Taw-Poe.

I do see where people from both sides are coming from. There are a lot of typos that need to be fixed as well. I just don't think these all that big of a deal at the moment. Focus on the new features and especially the bugs first, then focus on naming conventions later. Even if renaming is needed, and I'm not saying it isn't, it probably shouldn't be a distraction for Andrew right now.

Just out of curiosity, are terms like QRemesher, ShadowBox, MicroMesh, LightBox, and DynaMesh confusing? Imagine you've never encountered them before. Is it at all clear from those names what it is they do or do you have to open the manual and read up on them first? Do you know what a Thigh Master is without ever having seen one before? Why not just call it a spring seeing as that is what it is essentially? Perhaps it's not the name that matters so much as the pop up description for it (which doesn't say automatic retopology anywhere).

PS: I don't think viewport mesh is any better than carcass mesh either. Aren't all meshes a viewport mesh technically? There are probably still better terms that could be used. Frame, framework, skeleton, scaffolding (I like that one, it's straightforward), shell, support, cage, outline, reference (already used though), etc. Yes I abused the thesaurus a bit there lol.

[stry]

Changing tools in the Retopo room sure is slow (and things like deselecting all verts/faces, and selecting the first vert/face, etc)

Other than that, this is a fantastic update! Good work Andrew!

[LJB]

Retopology, Auto-Topology Please call it what it is? While 3D-Coat has many proprietary tools Consistency within its self and Standard naming conventions is so important (It makes tools & features seem more familiar, less alien). Call it what it is. Don't confuse Retopo and Autopo + 1 on the nasty delay when switching tools in the Retopo Room.

But Zedicus you too have a V' good point re ZBrush tool naming, Im just not sure this is the place for witty nicknames. I actually think some of the tool names in ZBrush make alot of sense. DynaMesh = Dynamic Mesh, LightBox = Light Box, QRemesher = Quick Re-mesher.

Still looking forward for a better wireframe in the Live clay and Vox viewport? the toggle is nice but seeing through your model is still a little too distracting when using LC to add resolution in specific areas.

[LJB]

Domo Arigato, Mr. Autopo?

^^Terrible^^

BTW the delay in retopo tools has been there for a couple of builds but this build seems longer delay.

[Carlosan]

new terms isnt the big problem here

lack of standard naming conventions is

Use the old v2 name Voxel Room when users can Sculpt using Voxels or Surface mode is

To have a VoxTree menu is

To name surfaces like materials is

yadda yadda yadda

3DC need a cleanup, not now for sure.

We need to keep the focus killing bugs.

but must be in the roadmap

[philnolan3d]

Perhaps it's not the name that matters so much as the pop up description for it (which doesn't say automatic retopology anywhere).

This harkens back to the old icon vs. text button discussions. If I'm a newbie looking at a sea of buttons, I know what I want, but if none of the buttons say it I don't want to pause and wait for a tooltip on every button, it could be 5 minutes of sitting there not getting work done.

[mercy]

Maybe create and English.xml and pass it around until everyone is satisfied with the modifications, then send it to Andrew?

Also bugfixing is more important than a MAJOR UI overhaul. But the latter has to be done sometime in the near future to make 3D-Coat more MAINSTREAM and artist-friendly. Peope probably LIKE using new programs with familiar tool-names.

Like using the SAME names as are used in Modo, Mudbox, Zbrush, Max, Maya, C4D etc.. The new names - auto retopo, projection painting, vertex painting, etc.. - are in the public consciousness. It's a big business-management error not to use them.

[Carlosan]

...If I'm a newbie looking at a sea of buttons...

exactly

I proposed an easy UI change:

http://3d-coat.com/f...showtopic=10114

http://3d-coat.com/m...view.php?id=861

[wave of light]

I think over the last year the UI has improved a lot, especially graphically, whilst still having the ability to swap to textual menus, should you desire.

I feel that if 3DC were able to do dual monitor with dockible windows, it would allow a nicer workflow, where the sculpting window is on one screen and all your menus on the other. To get around this I have been trying to use the shortcut pop up menus keystrokes.

The only danger with new naming conventions is that all previous videos will be redundant... But that's a decision for Andrew and the devs.

[unity2k]

Great point from Wave of Light - in an instant all of the great tutorials already online become irrelevant, or at a minimum very confusing to those trying to learn 3D Coat.

[stry]

Hm. In the retopo room (running the DX version) the low poly wireframe disappears when I zoom close enough to its surface. Doesn't happen in the GL version.

Anybody else having this problem? It might be a driver thing on my end.

[BeatKitano]

Great point from Wave of Light - in an instant all of the great tutorials already online become irrelevant, or at a minimum very confusing to those trying to learn 3D Coat.

So good changes shouldn't happen because tutorial explaining the app (because some tools are really confusing) will be obsolete ?

So, what do you want, keep eating dry powder milk because adding water would require you to go to the tap ?

That's, interesting.

(no offense intended to the peeps doing those tuts, they're very helpful)

Btw if you're worried about name continuity maybe you should have voiced your concern a TAD earlier, because somes tuts are completely obsolete right now with the constant addition/changes done to the program (not a bad thing, just saying it's kind of a funny worry).

At least if it's done properly in one go, we can expect simpler tutorial (self explaining terms don't need to be subject of new videos) and much less of them (people not affraid to use functions because they don't have the slightest clue on). I would go as far as saying "it's a win win" situation. If changes aren't made for the better in the fear of losing documentation material then this app is doom to fail imo.

[unity2k]

So good changes shouldn't happen because tutorial explaining the app (because some tools are really confusing) will be obsolete ?

So, what do you want, keep eating dry powder milk because adding water would require you to go to the tap ?

Btw if you're worried about name continuity maybe you should have voiced your concern a TAD earlier, because somes tuts are completely obsolete right now with the constant addition/changes done to the program (not a bad thing, just saying it's kind of a funny worry).

BeatKitano, I'm new to 3D Coat, to sculpting in general as a matter of fact. While I try to reach out to any and everything for this education that just began January 2nd when I started digging into some new things, I don't yet have all the right answers. Instead, I'm just trying to find my way. It's hard enough understanding what the world of 3D graphics is talking about when learning of retopology, normals, uv's, but having carcass, autopo, and other peculiar words to describe things that really smart guys like you already have figured out. I can only dream how nice it must be to have evolved away from eating dry milk, and now being connected directly to the teat, well lucky you for having all your lactic molecules already bonded to a great supply of hydrogen and oxygen.

Some of us are noobs, but you, you have just been plain old rude. I'm happy you are but a contributor, for if you were representing 3D Coat officially, you would have just lost a customer that appears to be nothing much more than a moron in your eyes. I bow before your superiority - in pity.

[Zeddicus]

I understand what they're getting at. Basically the point is that in ones haste to make 3DC less confusing for "noobs", which has so far been the most common justification as to why sweeping changes to the UI should be made as soon as possible, you could end up causing the opposite effect if you're not careful. I'm betting the whole tutorial angle never even occurred to the majority of you. I'll be the first to humbly admit that it never occurred to me lol. The lesson we need to take from this is obvious; it's easy to overlook unintended consequences. We need to be more careful when pushing for changes some of us are absolutely positive they're right about. It's easy to brush off someone simply because they disagree with you and ignore what they have to say, or worse treat them with sarcasm and scorn. We're better than that on this forum, right?

[BeatKitano]

BeatKitano, I'm new to 3D Coat, to sculpting in general as a matter of fact. While I try to reach out to any and everything for this education that just began January 2nd when I started digging into some new things, I don't yet have all the right answers. Instead, I'm just trying to find my way. It's hard enough understanding what the world of 3D graphics is talking about when learning of retopology, normals, uv's, but having carcass, autopo, and other peculiar words to describe things that really smart guys like you already have figured out. I can only dream how nice it must be to have evolved away from eating dry milk, and now being connected directly to the teat, well lucky you for having all your lactic molecules already bonded to a great supply of hydrogen and oxygen.

Some of us are noobs, but you, you have just been plain old rude. I'm happy you are but a contributor, for if you were representing 3D Coat officially, you would have just lost a customer that appears to be nothing much more than a moron in your eyes. I bow before yoursuperiority - in pity.

This is not EVEN close about being arrogant, you didn't read well (I hope). I'm talking about SIMPLIFYING things, by making names more easy to grasp. I'm not in the high tower of my shiny Crystal Castle here

I just want to point out that many of those tuts wouldn't be there if the software was much easier to use in the first place.

Zeddicus got it right, it's about making changes NOW because they need to happen, and the sooner the better because the actual learning material will keep coming and will eventualy be obsolete, so now is the best choice because most of the effort put into those tuts will go to waste otherwise... (in fact those changes were pushed forward in the middle of last year, this whole debate could've been avoided)

[philnolan3d]

That tutorial problem happens all the time with software. I've Been trying to learn Nuke and Digital Tutors has a number of old tutorials up where tools have been moved or renamed since then. It was a little confusing but I figured it out.

[Gravin]

I think that as a program grows and starts to introduce more complexity and depth in it's tool set there will come a time when changing the presentation of the tools through the UI becomes an import design consideration. In some cases this can mean a radical shift in others it only requires a few small changes and in the case of 3dCoat I think a few minor changes (from a user experience standpoint) wouldn't hurt. Paving the way for a more unified and ergonomic user experience now will make future additions to the tool set easier to absorb into a users workflow. Right now there are a lot of panels and a lot of drop down menu entries in various places that could be handled a little more elegantly. I feel like I'm constantly compromising between working view-port area and open panels and some of the drop down text menus are long and at times difficult to navigate. I'm not saying things haven't improved through the beta, I really like the changes so far, I just think we as users shouldn't be afraid of further change as long as it's beneficial in the long view. That said I think Carlosa's proposal would go a long way toward simplifying the interface without introducing to radical a change.