Advanced Member welchrs64 Posted December 24, 2012 Advanced Member Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 Why does 3D-Coat and Zbrush get to point where it won't let me expand or add more clay to my sculpts What should be done in this situation? Do i need to add more Ram to my PC? I currently use a Core i7 with 8gigs of Ram. The PC has a Nividia Geforce video card with Cuda ability. Thanks Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted December 24, 2012 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 Why does 3D-Coat and Zbrush get to point where it won't let me expand or add more clay to my sculpts What should be done in this situation? Do i need to add more Ram to my PC? I currently use a Core i7 with 8gigs of Ram. The PC has a Nividia Geforce video card with Cuda ability. Thanks Robert Can't speak for ZB, but in 3D Coat, you need to be careful just how dense the object is. If you are just blocking out rough forms, it's best to keep the polycount down as low as possible (that principle applies to any sculpting app.; not just 3D Coat), yet give you enough to do what you want. It may take a little getting used to, but a few pointers may help:1) Use the 4 key to toggle your wireframe on and off, so you can see just how dense the model is. If you are just on the earliest stages of a sculpt...blocking out proportions and rough forms, you should be able to clearly see your wireframe. If it looks solid (where you can't even see the wireframe), it's way too dense. 2) Keep an eye on the polycount at the bottom center of the UI 3) Scale the model up (25% of the grid is a good balance), and keep the count as low as needed for the work you are doing. 3) Use Resample (bottom portion of the tool panel) on a layer to bring the count down or up when needed. 4) Cache layers that you are not actively working on (to keep RAM usage down) 5) Hide layers you are not working on or need visible. It takes a big load off your video card. 6) When you are ready to do high detail work, again cache layers you aren't working on, so you can reach higher limits per layer...then when you are done with that layer, cache it and move on to the next 7) Use LiveClay when doing the uber-high detail, and remember that micro detail work, like fine wrinkles and pores are best (more efficiently) done in the Paint Room, with the Image-Based sculpting tools. Also, it won't help with ZB until they move to 64bit (way behind in that regard...not sure why it's taken them this long), but with 3D Coat, if you can bump your RAM to 16GB or higher, you will have a lot more headroom to do fine detail work, and have a more complex scene, in the Voxel Sculpt room. Not sure what model your video card is, but when/if you can swing it, going with a GTX 600 (Kepler architecture) series card (preferably 2-4GB VRAM) will help a good deal as well. The i7 is definitely a good CPU, but upgrades in these other areas will help. In the mean time, you can still do plenty of work with your current hardware setup. Just keep in mind the things mentioned. Check out some of the videos on the 3D Coat Youtube channel to help explain things a bit better. Muti-Res Worklfow: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member welchrs64 Posted December 24, 2012 Author Advanced Member Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 @AbnRanger - Thanks so much for the quick and detailed response. I'll look into the GTX 600 as well as practice the pointers that you noted. I really appreciate it. I had abandoned more than a few sculpts over the past two months for not understanding these concepts yet. This is a very good community. Happy Holidays to you and all the 3D-Coat and Art community, Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted December 25, 2012 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted December 25, 2012 @AbnRanger - Thanks so much for the quick and detailed response. I'll look into the GTX 600 as well as practice the pointers that you noted. I really appreciate it. I had abandoned more than a few sculpts over the past two months for not understanding these concepts yet. This is a very good community. Happy Holidays to you and all the 3D-Coat and Art community, Robert 'Preciate it. Merry Christmas to you too. Here is a video by Leigh Bamforth (one of the better sculpters in this community), that explains the importance of keeping the scale up (not to go to the other extreme, but it helps to have the scale a bit on the larger side).https://vimeo.com/35250429 A list of 3D Coat tuts on vimeo: https://vimeo.com/album/2190496 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor TimmyZDesign Posted December 25, 2012 Contributor Report Share Posted December 25, 2012 Some interesting things to think about regarding Nvidia graphics cards: The Geforce GTX 400 and 500 series cards have Fermi architecture. The Geforce GTX 600 series of cards have Kepler architecture. In some ways the Fermi architecture seems to be superior to Kepler architecture! For example, PC Mag ran benchmark graphics computing tests and found Fermi GTX 580 to compute faster than Kepler GTX 680. Also, Octane Render currently recommends using Fermi architecture cards instead of Kepler cards for speed. This is strange because all of the Kepler specifications seem to be much better than than the Fermi specifications! Kepler has a LOT more CUDA cores and are very energy efficient. Perhaps something was sacrificed in order to achieve the energy efficiency? One thing is for sure: Kepler is much better for PC gaming than Fermi. Unfortunately gaming performance does not directly translate into 3D content creation performance. For exactly this reason Nvidia created the Quadro series of graphics cards. Quadro cards are specifically designed for 3D content creation and are not intended to be superior gaming cards. The internal hardware of these cards has been closely matched with their software drivers to provide better performance and reliability when using 3D content creation software like 3Ds Max, AutoCAD etc. In addition to special drivers being created for Autodesk apps, Nvidia has published documents which outline the hardware performance benefits of using Quadro cards instead of Geforce cards. Quadro cards are quite a bit more expensive than Geforce cards. Therefore many people choose not to buy them and use Geforce cards instead. So then the question becomes, get a Quadro card, a Geforce Fermi card, or a Geforce Kepler card? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member welchrs64 Posted December 26, 2012 Author Advanced Member Report Share Posted December 26, 2012 @AdnRanger and TimmyZDesign Thanks for the video card tips and Tutorial suggestions and advice. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted December 26, 2012 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted December 26, 2012 @AdnRanger and TimmyZDesign Thanks for the video card tips and Tutorial suggestions and advice. Robert Did a little more research on the Kepler cards. In some cases they are not outperforming the Fermi Cards (usually comparing the 500 series), in CG apps...where CUDA is used. Seems that NVidia made a compromise. More CUDA cores, but throttled back the clock speed on those cores. Kepler is definitely a better gaming card, but it may be best to hold off for a few months. Nvidia is expected to release a 700 series any time between this month (Dec) to March. They are supposed to address this issue, as they took a lot of flak over it. Basically the 600 series is Little Kepler, and the 700 series is Big Kepler. I think some of this is the fact that few software vendors have had the chance to tune their applications to take advantage of the new technologies that came with Kepler. Things like Dynamic parallelism and Hyper Q.http://www.techpowerup.com/173851/NVIDIA-Kepler-Refresh-GPU-Family-Detailed.html 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member welchrs64 Posted December 28, 2012 Author Advanced Member Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 Thanks AbnRanger - I'm gonna check my Motherboard to see which of these new cards I can use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member welchrs64 Posted December 30, 2012 Author Advanced Member Report Share Posted December 30, 2012 Did a little more research on the Kepler cards. In some cases they are not outperforming the Fermi Cards (usually comparing the 500 series), in CG apps...where CUDA is used. Seems that NVidia made a compromise. More CUDA cores, but throttled back the clock speed on those cores. Kepler is definitely a better gaming card, but it may be best to hold off for a few months. Nvidia is expected to release a 700 series any time between this month (Dec) to March. They are supposed to address this issue, as they took a lot of flak over it. Basically the 600 series is Little Kepler, and the 700 series is Big Kepler. I think some of this is the fact that few software vendors have had the chance to tune their applications to take advantage of the new technologies that came with Kepler. Things like Dynamic parallelism and Hyper Q. http://www.techpower...y-Detailed.html I checked what card I have. it is the GTX 560. I think this one is the Fermi type according to what you said above. I'm gonna look into a Kepler type for mr this or my other PC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted December 30, 2012 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted December 30, 2012 I checked what card I have. it is the GTX 560. I think this one is the Fermi type according to what you said above. I'm gonna look into a Kepler type for mr this or my other PC. That one should be good. Wouldn't worry about upgrading for a while. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member alvordr Posted January 2, 2013 Advanced Member Report Share Posted January 2, 2013 I wouldn't suggest plopping down a ton on a card, unless you know it's going to help. You can see my specs below and I've gone as high as 19 Million points (polys) in ZBrush, rather comfortably. That's a bit overkill, but I wanted to see how high I could take it at the time. I might have been able to push it more, but I wasn't sure what kind of advantage knowing I could going even that high would be, anyway. That said, I can't go more than a few million in anything else, generally. So, it's up to the program, it's up to the amount/type/speed of RAM, it's up to the CPU speed and number of cores, it's up to the type of GPU (which is why you have varying degrees of success with various cards, depending on their use), your HDD/SDD speed, etc. etc. Having been an IT professional for too many years to mention, my experience has been that you get more bang for your buck with faster RAM and a better graphics card, for things like this. The RAM will be cheaper and helps with more than just the graphics intensive apps. The other thing to look at are the processes/programs you have running alongside 3DC. You might be able to free up resources there. If you want, you can post your computer specs here in detail and I can make some recommendations on what/where to buy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted January 2, 2013 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted January 2, 2013 I wouldn't suggest plopping down a ton on a card, unless you know it's going to help. You can see my specs below and I've gone as high as 19 Million points (polys) in ZBrush, rather comfortably. That's a bit overkill, but I wanted to see how high I could take it at the time. I might have been able to push it more, but I wasn't sure what kind of advantage knowing I could going even that high would be, anyway. That said, I can't go more than a few million in anything else, generally. So, it's up to the program, it's up to the amount/type/speed of RAM, it's up to the CPU speed and number of cores, it's up to the type of GPU (which is why you have varying degrees of success with various cards, depending on their use), your HDD/SDD speed, etc. etc. Having been an IT professional for too many years to mention, my experience has been that you get more bang for your buck with faster RAM and a better graphics card, for things like this. The RAM will be cheaper and helps with more than just the graphics intensive apps. The other thing to look at are the processes/programs you have running alongside 3DC. You might be able to free up resources there. If you want, you can post your computer specs here in detail and I can make some recommendations on what/where to buy. I have similar specs as yours (except I for a GTX 470 rather than a 550), and I have been able to reach 90-100mill polys in the scene (the navigation speed takes a hit if I have all layers showing, but I just hide what I'm not working on, and viewport performance perks back up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member alvordr Posted January 2, 2013 Advanced Member Report Share Posted January 2, 2013 I haven't gone that high in 3DC...~5 mil is where I seem to top out at. However, as I'm learning, I know better now how to handle the performance issues in 3DC. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member welchrs64 Posted January 3, 2013 Author Advanced Member Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 @alvordr and AbnRanger Thanks! Here is my PC info: CPU: Intel Core™ i7 - 2600k @3.40GHz 3.70 GHz 8.00 GB Ram Windows 7 64 bit Operating System 1 TB hard Drive, 300 GB still avaliable ASUS GTX 560 DirectCUIIOC Nvidia Video Card with PhysX and Full DirectX 11 support 1GB GDDR5 Ram 850 MHZ (overclocked???) Motherboard: Gigabyte Z68AP-D3 I do have Voidworld, blender, or Poser open in the back ground at times when Zvrush or 3DC is running Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member alvordr Posted January 3, 2013 Advanced Member Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 Those processes at the end there aren't what I'm talking about, but it helps. For now, let me take some time to tackle what we can do for your system from a hardware standpoint. You can keep that as a reference while we go in depth into the "FREE" fixes by determining what processes/startups we should tackle. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member welchrs64 Posted January 3, 2013 Author Advanced Member Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 Those processes at the end there aren't what I'm talking about, but it helps. For now, let me take some time to tackle what we can do for your system from a hardware standpoint. You can keep that as a reference while we go in depth into the "FREE" fixes by determining what processes/startups we should tackle. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member alvordr Posted January 3, 2013 Advanced Member Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 @alvordr and AbnRanger Thanks! Here is my PC info: CPU: Intel Core™ i7 - 2600k @3.40GHz 3.70 GHz 8.00 GB Ram Windows 7 64 bit Operating System 1 TB hard Drive, 300 GB still avaliable ASUS GTX 560 DirectCUIIOC Nvidia Video Card with PhysX and Full DirectX 11 support 1GB GDDR5 Ram 850 MHZ (overclocked???) Motherboard: Gigabyte Z68AP-D3 I do have Voidworld, blender, or Poser open in the back ground at times when Zvrush or 3DC is running HARDWARE REASONS YOUR SYSTEM MAY BE SLOW AT TIMES: Hey. I managed to get some recommendations put together for your system. I don't know what speed you RAM is, but if you plan on keeping your motherboard, you can go as high as 32 Gb, Dual Channel DDR3 @ 2133 Mhz. It looks like you can also use the PCI Express 3.0 standard (if you're not already), but you need an Intel 22nm CPU for that. It looks like your current processor is 21.6 nm, so I don't know if that qualifies it or not. I wouldn't recommend using different brands of RAM, even if the specs look the same. The latency and timings may still be different. That said, you might be using an overclocked processor, if it's set at 3.7Ghz, instead of the 3.4Ghz factory setting. That's not necessarily bad, but if you're finding your system slowing down during intensive operations, it may be overheating. There are a number of factors that can impact your system's cooling ability, such as what type of cooling you're using, which is most likely fans + gas pipes and passive heatsinks. Your maximum temp for that chip is @ 72.6°C, but I suggest keeping it closer to 50 or below. Most of my system uses 120 mm fans (Pabst brand) and a Noctua NH-C14 140mm x 2 SSO CPU Cooler, but you need to see if something like that will fit in your system (IT'S HUGE!!!) or will even work with your CPU. Check the CPU temp via the Bios (usually hold F2 or DEL as when the system starts to enter it. NOTE: I don't recommend messing with Bios settings if you don't know what you're doing. Another thing that may help your system is to look at the level 2 cache of the chip. Yours is 4 x 256 kb. From my experience, the level 2 cache seems to have a decent impact on system performance. Mine, for instance is a 6 x 512 Mb. However, I also have 6-cores at 3.3 Ghz (I keep mine at factory). Mine is also an AMD chip, rather than Intel, but if you go that route, you'll need a new motherboard to use it. RECOMMENDATIONS: I never recommend going cheap on the RAM or power supply. However, you can get high-performance RAM at a great price, like below. I personally prefer AMD cpu's, but I wouldn't think upgrading your CPU is as necessary, right now. It used to be that AMD CPU's were better at graphics processing, while Intel was better at other types of calculations, but I think they're likely close on both, now. If you do upgrade, keep in mind that you may need to buy a new motherboard, especially if you're changing from Intel to AMD. I've dealt with a lot of processors, and brands of motherboards. Right now, the most solid motherboards in my experience are MSI and ASRock. An upgrade in RAM wouldn't cost much and might help, especially when you're dealing with higher poly counts, larger textures, etc. If you're using an HDD, the RPMs and built in RAM will matter, so since I don't know yours, I'm going to leave that alone for now (I prefer Hitachi Deskstars). If you're an SDD, which I doubt, you're problably fine without upgrading your drive. As for your graphics card, you're probably fine, for now. There are rumblings on the forums right now over whether or not upgrading from 500 series to 600 series is actually worth the money. I almost always shop from Newegg.com. I've had no bad service for about 10 years now. However, for comparative shopping you can also try Buy.com. I like them, as well. I did price checking at Newegg for you, below. Hope this helps. My recommendations, if you decide to do any upgrades: RAM ============== Currently $52 @ Newegg.com (http://www.newegg.co...N82E16820220707) Patriot Intel Extreme Master, Limited Edition 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 2133 (PC3 17000) Desktop Memory Model PVI38G213C1K CPU ============== Currenlty $139 @ Newegg.com (http://www.newegg.co...N82E16819113286) AMD FX-6300 Vishera 3.5GHz (4.1GHz Turbo) Socket AM3+ 95W Six-Core Desktop Processor FD6300WMHKBOX Currently $569 @ Newegg.com (http://www.newegg.co...N82E16819116492) Intel Core i7-3930K Sandy Bridge-E 3.2GHz (3.8GHz Turbo) LGA 2011 130W Six-Core Desktop Processor BX80619i73930K MOTHERBOARD ============== Currently $84 @ Newegg.com (http://www.newegg.co...N82E16813157280) For AMD --> ASRock 970 EXTREME3 AM3+ AMD 970 SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX AMD Motherboard Currently $219 @ Newegg.com (http://www.newegg.co...N82E16813157289) For Intel --> ASRock X79 Extreme6 LGA 2011 Intel X79 SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX Intel Motherboard Currently $164 @ Newegg.com (http://www.newegg.co...N82E16813130623) For Intel --> or MSI X79MA-GD45 LGA 2011 Intel X79 SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 Micro ATX Intel Motherboard with UEFI BIOS GRAPHICS CARD ============== Currently $129 @ Newegg.com (http://www.newegg.co...N82E16814121708) ASUS GTX650-DCO-1GD5 GeForce GTX 650 1GB 128-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 3.0 HDCP Ready Video Card 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member welchrs64 Posted January 4, 2013 Author Advanced Member Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 Thanks Alvordr! I really appreciate all the information and the links. I am going to up the RAM as soon as possible. I have had to strange PC crashes this year, one just yesterday, and I think I may be putting to heavy of a burden on it at times. I also like Newegg.com and have bought from them in the past. I'll start there with the Ram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member alvordr Posted January 4, 2013 Advanced Member Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 The other side of this is the software side. If you defrag (assuming you haven't) it should help. I would also use CCleaner to tidy things up a bit. It's the ONLY program I recommend to cleaning your registry, as well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member welchrs64 Posted January 5, 2013 Author Advanced Member Report Share Posted January 5, 2013 Thanks alvordr! I will get the CCleaner. i think suffered for not ever defragging. Now that I have re-installed and set my PC all over I'm gonna get back in the habit of doing that on the regular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member alvordr Posted January 5, 2013 Advanced Member Report Share Posted January 5, 2013 I do it once every 1 to 2 months. These days, it usually doesn't take long compared to what it used to. It's worth it, as it keeps the level of disk errors down, while optimizing your data for faster access. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member ggaliens Posted February 27, 2013 Advanced Member Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 I have reached up to 76 Million implied polys in VOXEL room. 3DCoat becomes very sluggish. But I will do it again if I need to. In my head I've had 30 Million as a better upper limit for my machine and my workflow which consists only of PROCEDURAL tweeks to high-poly models imported (OBJ) into 3DCoat from a special version of Wings3D which can serialize out many more polygons than normal wings3D. I use 3DCoat to do large turn table renders mostly. Pretty slow. But I like some of the thinks I can do with the VOXEL setup. And I still hold out a lot of hope that 3DCoat Voxel processing my at somepoint take a leap due to hardware advances or software (CUDA ... programming for more cores) advances. I have an HP Pavillion with 16GB Ram purchased about 2010. I added 8GB Ram to it to get to 16GB. I love 3DCoat ... I just wish it was more VOXEL and shader centered. That feels like an area of super strength to me for 3dCOAT. Every now and again do a "search" for competiton to 3DCoat in VOXELS.. Have not found anything yet. Sculptris is a bt cools. But 3DCoat approach seems PURE to me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member welchrs64 Posted March 10, 2013 Author Advanced Member Report Share Posted March 10, 2013 Thanks for all the advice I was given on this thread. I found out my hard drive a seagate 1TB SATA Baracuda was bad. I replaced it and upgraded my ram from 8 to 16 GB. all sculpting apts (3DC, ZBR, Blender) work fine now with running out of material quick or leaving cursor and menu artifacts behind. I got 50% better after the HD replacement and after the ram and updating the Nvidia driver it is all smooth. The HD I replaced it with was the same model but from a later manufacturing lot. I was having to run Check Disk and startup repair almost every day for the past few months. I'm glad to get a break. Thanks Robert.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member alvordr Posted March 10, 2013 Advanced Member Report Share Posted March 10, 2013 The problem with Check Disk is that when it finds errors in clusters, it marks them as bad, permanently...there really isn't any true repair. Once you start getting bad clusters, you're drive is on it's way to the junk pile. I never run it. If you're seeing it run, due to crashes, then you may as well count your blessings or get another drive to back it up, soon. For what it's worth, I recommend Hitachi Deskstars. I've found them to be generally more dependable than other brands. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member welchrs64 Posted March 10, 2013 Author Advanced Member Report Share Posted March 10, 2013 The problem with Check Disk is that when it finds errors in clusters, it marks them as bad, permanently...there really isn't any true repair. Once you start getting bad clusters, you're drive is on it's way to the junk pile. I never run it. If you're seeing it run, due to crashes, then you may as well count your blessings or get another drive to back it up, soon. For what it's worth, I recommend Hitachi Deskstars. I've found them to be generally more dependable than other brands. Thanks. I will remember that going forward and not run the check disk anymore. It makes since now becasue it just kept getting worse and worse. I also found out recently that seagate had been having some issues with the Barracuda hard drive initially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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