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Something wrong with 3d coat clay brush?


metrons
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Ive been trying to use 3dcoat exclusively at work, its been going great except ONE brush is driving me nuts. i'm coming from zbrush. i would almost guarantee any zbrush user who has to sculpt will tell you their most used brush is probably the clay/clay tubes brush. 

on the left is 3dcoat's clay brush, i'm trying to sculpt in that area and fill in the space, instead its somewhat filling in the space/creating these planes that are just creating artifacts. the more i go under the shape the more it creates awkward planes. if i lower the Normal Sampling to 0 i start to get a clay brush that's more like zbrush until my stroke just stops putting down strokes entirely based on elevation i guess?

on the right is zbrush, not only is it filling in the space, its always drawing completely over my mesh. it feels VERY natural as well. has anyone gotten their clay brush to work just like zbrush? this is killing me, i keep having to export models into zbrush and bring back in 3dcoat. im trying really hard to use 3d coat entirely but after a while now of sculpting in it i think there is something fundamentally wrong with the clay brush. i dont know if the tool needs some tweaking or what but i feel like ive tried everything and its just not like zbrush's clay brush. 

 

i guess someone could say 3d coat just works differently, coming from zbrush i feel like this brush is going backwards for workflows compared to zbrush. its such a powerful brush in zbrush, i use it 95% of the time and its killing me not having this working like zbrush does in 3d coat. really would appreciate any insight on this. 

 

 

 

 

3dcoatClay.png

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clean mesh, yeah. i think its just how the tool works. ive been experimenting with exporting to zbrush and testing both brushes and they're similar but 3dcoat doesn't always achieve the same effect as zbrush. 

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its not a live clay thing. its just how the brushes work from everything i've seen. i've been using 3dcoat for a couple years now at work, ive always had this problem and i am hoping other zbrush users could chime in. no matter what i cant get the same results in coat. 

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If that is so, then I didn't understand your question. I thought you wanted to know some means of achieving smooth geometry transitions in cases similar to what you presented to us.

What exactly seems to be the problem?

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The tools are named the same, but does not mean it works the same as copycat.

Take Photoshop, Corel paint, clip paint studio, etcetc... pencil, brushes are named similar, but the feeling and effect are very different.

 

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7 hours ago, metrons said:

Ive been trying to use 3dcoat exclusively at work, its been going great except ONE brush is driving me nuts. i'm coming from zbrush. i would almost guarantee any zbrush user who has to sculpt will tell you their most used brush is probably the clay/clay tubes brush. 

on the left is 3dcoat's clay brush, i'm trying to sculpt in that area and fill in the space, instead its somewhat filling in the space/creating these planes that are just creating artifacts. the more i go under the shape the more it creates awkward planes. if i lower the Normal Sampling to 0 i start to get a clay brush that's more like zbrush until my stroke just stops putting down strokes entirely based on elevation i guess?

on the right is zbrush, not only is it filling in the space, its always drawing completely over my mesh. it feels VERY natural as well. has anyone gotten their clay brush to work just like zbrush? this is killing me, i keep having to export models into zbrush and bring back in 3dcoat. im trying really hard to use 3d coat entirely but after a while now of sculpting in it i think there is something fundamentally wrong with the clay brush. i dont know if the tool needs some tweaking or what but i feel like ive tried everything and its just not like zbrush's clay brush. 

 

i guess someone could say 3d coat just works differently, coming from zbrush i feel like this brush is going backwards for workflows compared to zbrush. its such a powerful brush in zbrush, i use it 95% of the time and its killing me not having this working like zbrush does in 3d coat. really would appreciate any insight on this. 

 

 

 

 

3dcoatClay.png

Have you tried the Artman preset named CLAY? It actually uses the RAPID brush and has a custom flattening curve. Seems to me that it was probably his attempt to recreate the equivalent in ZBrush

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I think Rapid and Rapid 2 would be your preferred brushes. Artman worked with Andrew quite a bit to get the brushes refined, and even if they don't happen to feel exactly like similar brushes in ZBrush, they are still pretty sweet. They're even nicer than what I was used to using in Mudbox. The only thing I feel is missing is the Sculpt Layers both of those apps have. To get that functionality you pretty much have to leave that part of the sculpting until you are in the Texture painting stage where you can then use the image based sculpting to sculpt/paint on the layers there. It's actually not a bad workflow for super fine surface detail like skin pores and fine wrinkles/bumps.

This is why I hope, with 4.7 now released, I hope Andrew turns to Sculpt layers first.

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16 minutes ago, Werner_Z said:

Thanks  AbnRanger!  The Rapid2 brush is much nicer.

 

Yeah, it and Mud/Mud2 are really nice once you've experimented with the settings in the toolbar, chosen a good brush alpha,etc. Always good to save a brush preset once you found something you like. I prefer to turn REMOVE STRETCHING off because on areas where the mesh is dense, it tends to cause an annoying pause at the end of a brush stroke (where it's decimating the brushed area).

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The artman Clay did not work in my case. I had to move the last point up on the brush curve you pointed above to get anything to show up on the geometry. Once I did that it worked like a charm.

Why would that be?

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12 hours ago, Werner_Z said:

The artman Clay did not work in my case. I had to move the last point up on the brush curve you pointed above to get anything to show up on the geometry. Once I did that it worked like a charm.

Why would that be?

I don't know. My guess is somehow the depth level of your brush is at 0 somehow? Mine is set to 22 (in the toolbar DEPTH parameter) and it works properly. Not sure what is going on with yours. But you can correct it > RMB over the preset > UPDATE PRESET)

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" i guess someone could say 3d coat just works differently, coming from zbrush i feel like this brush is going backwards for workflows compared to zbrush. its such a powerful brush in zbrush, i use it 95% of the time and its killing me not having this working like zbrush does in 3d coat. really would appreciate any insight on this. "

Thats one of the few things that have been killing me with 3D Coat... the brush system and the way they appear on the mesh are just not quite right... I gave up trying to get zbrush like brush strokes (and quality) from 3D Coat but its just not possible until Andrew improves upon the sculpting features.

@AbnRanger  " This is why I hope, with 4.7 now released, I hope Andrew turns to Sculpt layers first. "

Sculpt layers are nice feature but they are not really a necessity. Whats the point if the sculpting quality/brush types and strokes as well as workflow just isnt up to par? Its far better to focus on getting higher quality, higher fidelity sculpting results first as the base, then add on the extra companion workflows like sculpt layers, otherwise the development is just working backwards and thats not good.

The zbrush alternative is a pretty good market thats been somewhat untapped. 3D Coat can really fill that niche with some serious work on the sculpting aspect.

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5 hours ago, RabenWulf said:

" i guess someone could say 3d coat just works differently, coming from zbrush i feel like this brush is going backwards for workflows compared to zbrush. its such a powerful brush in zbrush, i use it 95% of the time and its killing me not having this working like zbrush does in 3d coat. really would appreciate any insight on this. "

Thats one of the few things that have been killing me with 3D Coat... the brush system and the way they appear on the mesh are just not quite right... I gave up trying to get zbrush like brush strokes (and quality) from 3D Coat but its just not possible until Andrew improves upon the sculpting features.

@AbnRanger  " This is why I hope, with 4.7 now released, I hope Andrew turns to Sculpt layers first. "

Sculpt layers are nice feature but they are not really a necessity. Whats the point if the sculpting quality/brush types and strokes as well as workflow just isnt up to par? Its far better to focus on getting higher quality, higher fidelity sculpting results first as the base, then add on the extra companion workflows like sculpt layers, otherwise the development is just working backwards and thats not good.

The zbrush alternative is a pretty good market thats been somewhat untapped. 3D Coat can really fill that niche with some serious work on the sculpting aspect.

Not saying some brushes cannot be improved, but I love what he did just prior to 4.1, and do not see what all the fuss is about...especially when using Artman's presets. I bet most everyone who complains about the brushing in 3D Coat really have not even tried to use them or the Mud/ Rapid/ Clay brushes. I've used Mudbox and I prefer to sculpt in 3D Coat now, with all the changes that were done. Seems to me that most just try a few voxel brushes and give up...not knowing that it's a much different experience in Surface mode. With a little tweaking of the settings and flattening curves, you can create a number of Go To brushes. 

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2 hours ago, AbnRanger said:

Not saying some brushes cannot be improved, but I love what he did just prior to 4.1, and do not see what all the fuss is about...especially when using Artman's presets. I bet most everyone who complains about the brushing in 3D Coat really have not even tried to use them or the Mud/ Rapid/ Clay brushes. I've used Mudbox and I prefer to sculpt in 3D Coat now, with all the changes that were done. Seems to me that most just try a few voxel brushes and give up...not knowing that it's a much different experience in Surface mode. With a little tweaking of the settings and flattening curves, you can create a number of Go To brushes. 

I'm sure they have tried them, as I have many times. Their effectiveness compared to something like zbrush is grossly over exaggerated. They still have the over all problem of the other brushes, which probably has something to do with the brush engine or way in which the displacement is occurring. Even with that problem, you still have really bad masking features (or lack there of) that are a bit too basic, polygroups and surface selection..ect... over all the sculpting isnt bad when you compare it to a mudbox or blender, but once zbrush comes into the picture the quality and expectation levels change drastically.

Also the same with surface mode, its a bit silly to think that people just stop at voxel mode and come to a conclusion. Careful of confirmation bias.

Sculpt layers are just not something that should be considered a priority when it comes to sculpting. Andrew has something really good with 3D Coat but instead of more features persay, the quality levels and workflow need to level up a bit.

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9 minutes ago, RabenWulf said:

I'm sure they have tried them, as I have many times. Their effectiveness compared to something like zbrush is grossly over exaggerated. They still have the over all problem of the other brushes, which probably has something to do with the brush engine or way in which the displacement is occurring. Even with that problem, you still have really bad masking features (or lack there of) that are a bit too basic, polygroups and surface selection..ect... over all the sculpting isnt bad when you compare it to a mudbox or blender, but once zbrush comes into the picture the quality and expectation levels change drastically.

Also the same with surface mode, its a bit silly to think that people just stop at voxel mode and come to a conclusion. Careful of confirmation bias.

Sculpt layers are just not something that should be considered a priority when it comes to sculpting. Andrew has something really good with 3D Coat but instead of more features persay, the quality levels and workflow need to level up a bit.

You see, I hear that a lot, and I think it is utter rubbish. But let's prove it one way or the other. You record yourself sculpting with these superior brushes in ZB, and superior masking, and post it on youtube. Do the best you can. Not just a little doodle. Sculpt something pretty elaborate that demonstrates this superiority and I'll emulate it in 3D Coat, and post it on Youtube as well. And then we will post both videos on 3D Coat's Facebook and Google+ page. So everyone can see if there is anything to this supposed superiority/inferiority. I'm up for it. Are you?

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10 hours ago, AbnRanger said:

You see, I hear that a lot, and I think it is utter rubbish. But let's prove it one way or the other. You record yourself sculpting with these superior brushes in ZB, and superior masking, and post it on youtube. Do the best you can. Not just a little doodle. Sculpt something pretty elaborate that demonstrates this superiority and I'll emulate it in 3D Coat, and post it on Youtube as well. And then we will post both videos on 3D Coat's Facebook and Google+ page. So everyone can see if there is anything to this supposed superiority/inferiority. I'm up for it. Are you?

I have noticed that you have a habit of saying things like "I hear that a lot" or "a lot of people"... how do you prove this? How do you know what people are doing or experiencing? It seems like you set yourself up every time to back your firmly planted bias on this issue. Its not like I cannot understand your bias, you have talked about it in the past...

Remember its not the first time we have had this discussion on here. Back in October you admitted that "That weird interface has largely kept me away from ZB" and that you have dabbled in the trial a bit. Imagine, writing off a program because of the "weird interface" or that pixologic copied 3DC over the autoretopo. Remember you also called me a "zbrush fanboy" just because I replied with some information about zbrush that was positive on a 3D Coat forum... (Quote: " You're the one coming across as a ZBrush fanboy, since you are trying to promote in ON A 3D COAT FORUM. ")

My point here is that you have established you have an anti-zb bias in the past as well as never really jumping into ZB. You have at times admitted zbrush is better on the brushes but blame it it on "head start" they had (which is not entirely inaccurate), but also go into a feature comparison... you said what makes 3D Coat great is the dynamic topology and ability to vertex paint interchangeably. That certainly is a bonus point for 3D Coat for that particular workflow, but it still doesnt erase the quality issues and workflow of other features or base features (like sculpting). More features is not necessarily a good thing if the stuff they are built on isnt the best it can be.

So with that said, doing the videos is pointless. It wont erase your bias, it wont change my experience or observations. All one has to do is look at the content coming out of both applications to see the wide gap in quality of sculpts. Sadly even blender has better sculpts coming out of it than 3D Coat at this point in time. I too prefer to use 3D Coat for as much as possible, and its certainly not bad when you compare it to dying product like mudbox. At the very core of a good sculpting workflow is the brushes and how they interact with the mesh, the algorithm that displaces the geometry and how its used...  as well as masking (and selection features in general, example: Polygroups) and transposing. All three of these need some serious work in 3D Coat, this really shouldnt have to be up for debate. All the extra features, are not as important (this includes sculpt layers, also applies to ZB as well). 3D Coat will be able to showcase a lot more high end sculpts if it improves the quality/workflow of those 3 things.

Just try putting aside your anti-zb bias, spend some time with it based on those 3 things mentioned, and you will see the obvious difference. Btw I do not want 3DC to copy ZB, I want it to be better or at least catch up to it on the basics... and right now its doing none of those things. Still usable in production? Sure depending on what you do and the quality expectation (as well as realism vs stylized). Lack of polygroups and masking options can result in a lot more work though and time requirements (plus effort) are also important. Focus on building up the foundation, not luxury features like sculpt layers which do not show their worth until the actual quality/workflow levels up.

 

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lots of great info here, thanks everyone. i've tried rapid and mud and buildup. they all produce weird strokes still. i say weird coming from zbrush, i know how a stroke will get laid down. i guess in the meantime im going to build out my shapes and detail them mostly in zbrush...sigh...

 

i still think 3dcoat needs some work on its clay type brushes. sure love sculpting in this program though. i just dont think the brushes are there. 

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18 minutes ago, RabenWulf said:

I have noticed that you have a habit of saying things like "I hear that a lot" or "a lot of people"... how do you prove this? How do you know what people are doing or experiencing? It seems like you set yourself up every time to back your firmly planted bias on this issue. Its not like I cannot understand your bias, you have talked about it in the past...

Remember its not the first time we have had this discussion on here. Back in October you admitted that "That weird interface has largely kept me away from ZB" and that you have dabbled in the trial a bit. Imagine, writing off a program because of the "weird interface" or that pixologic copied 3DC over the autoretopo. Remember you also called me a "zbrush fanboy" just because I replied with some information about zbrush that was positive on a 3D Coat forum... (Quote: " You're the one coming across as a ZBrush fanboy, since you are trying to promote in ON A 3D COAT FORUM. ")

My point here is that you have established you have an anti-zb bias in the past as well as never really jumping into ZB. You have at times admitted zbrush is better on the brushes but blame it it on "head start" they had (which is not entirely inaccurate), but also go into a feature comparison... you said what makes 3D Coat great is the dynamic topology and ability to vertex paint interchangeably. That certainly is a bonus point for 3D Coat for that particular workflow, but it still doesnt erase the quality issues and workflow of other features or base features (like sculpting). More features is not necessarily a good thing if the stuff they are built on isnt the best it can be.

So with that said, doing the videos is pointless. It wont erase your bias, it wont change my experience or observations. All one has to do is look at the content coming out of both applications to see the wide gap in quality of sculpts. Sadly even blender has better sculpts coming out of it than 3D Coat at this point in time. I too prefer to use 3D Coat for as much as possible, and its certainly not bad when you compare it to dying product like mudbox. At the very core of a good sculpting workflow is the brushes and how they interact with the mesh, the algorithm that displaces the geometry and how its used...  as well as masking (and selection features in general, example: Polygroups) and transposing. All three of these need some serious work in 3D Coat, this really shouldnt have to be up for debate. All the extra features, are not as important (this includes sculpt layers, also applies to ZB as well). 3D Coat will be able to showcase a lot more high end sculpts if it improves the quality/workflow of those 3 things.

Just try putting aside your anti-zb bias, spend some time with it based on those 3 things mentioned, and you will see the obvious difference. Btw I do not want 3DC to copy ZB, I want it to be better or at least catch up to it on the basics... and right now its doing none of those things. Still usable in production? Sure depending on what you do and the quality expectation (as well as realism vs stylized). Lack of polygroups and masking options can result in a lot more work though and time requirements (plus effort) are also important. Focus on building up the foundation, not luxury features like sculpt layers which do not show their worth until the actual quality/workflow levels up.

 

Wrong. Doing the video can prove conclusively whether there is any truth to the your claims...claims wihich I say are bogus. You have a bias and I have a bias, so let's put the cards on the table and see who is right and who is wrong. One of us has to be. My contention is that you've been just repeating what you've heard other ZBrush users say, and have not really experienced this huge disparity, yourself. You hate the brushes. I like them. Only one way to found out and this would be a good way for everyone to see whether there is any truth to this notion (that 3D Coat brushes suck, as you say).

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5 minutes ago, metrons said:

lots of great info here, thanks everyone. i've tried rapid and mud and buildup. they all produce weird strokes still. i say weird coming from zbrush, i know how a stroke will get laid down. i guess in the meantime im going to build out my shapes and detail them mostly in zbrush...sigh...

 

i still think 3dcoat needs some work on its clay type brushes. sure love sculpting in this program though. i just dont think the brushes are there. 

I actually like them, but if you've been used to the way another app and feel subtle different nuances, that's understandable. But, at the same time, I do think it's rather unfair to insist another application HAS to provide the exact same behavior and feel of another application. It's rare. Even Mudbox didn't/doesn't and it was developed by the folks at Weta Digital (during Lord of the Rings) and owned by AutoBorg. I'm fine with the nuanced differences, but if you feel it would be beneficial to have it behave the exact same, you could e-mail Andrew and just explain (might be best to do a screen recording to demonstrate it) the difference and why it matters. He tries hard to please, unlike some software developers who never respond to broader user requests/input. You might be surprised what comes of it. Artman worked with Andrew to get the brushes where they are today. A little more tweaking might be all it takes.

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