Member Pedro Toledo Posted June 26, 2009 Member Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 I have just downloaded 3D Coat less than 3 hours ago and I can't believe how fast it is to understand it's interface and start sculpting. Voxels are simply AMAZING!!!! This is a truly revolutionary step on digital sculpting! Kudos! Anyways, here is my first attempt to do anything in 3D-Coat. Still far from good, but I'm impressed how fast it was to make it, and even more impressed that it came out of a simple sphere! I felt like I could just keep adding volume till I had the whole body done. (but it's late already, time to sleep ) I also felt like I had got a new favorite toy Comments are welcome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor Tony Nemo Posted June 26, 2009 Contributor Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 I have just downloaded 3D Coat less than 3 hours ago and I can't believe how fast it is to understand it's interface and start sculpting.Voxels are simply AMAZING!!!! This is a truly revolutionary step on digital sculpting! Kudos! Anyways, here is my first attempt to do anything in 3D-Coat. Still far from good, but I'm impressed how fast it was to make it, and even more impressed that it came out of a simple sphere! I felt like I could just keep adding volume till I had the whole body done. (but it's late already, time to sleep ) I also felt like I had got a new favorite toy Comments are welcome Buen hecho! With your obvious facility with voxels, you might consider a demonstration of your workflow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member e214 Posted June 26, 2009 Advanced Member Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 Join the club,voxels are amazing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member 3dioot Posted June 26, 2009 Advanced Member Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 Superb work! And yes, welcome. 3dioot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor artman Posted June 26, 2009 Contributor Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 Welcome to freedomland dude I'm a fan of your work ,btw (very cool first voxel step....I fear less sleep for you now hehe ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Paint Guy Posted June 26, 2009 Advanced Member Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 Very nice sculpting Pedro. Yeah, that's how I felt the first time I used voxels too! Isn't it nice to actually be able to think about creating art rather than fighting an interface. Sure 3DCoat still needs improving but it sure is a step in the right direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor tree321 Posted June 26, 2009 Contributor Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 Nice to see more talent around here.Please consider moving this thread to volumetric sculpting WIPs. Looking forward to seeing more of your work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Eric Dandoy Posted June 26, 2009 Advanced Member Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 Astounding work! And great character too! Far from good results, heh? I can't wait to see the close to good ones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Applink Developer haikalle Posted June 26, 2009 Applink Developer Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 Fantastic work. And welcome. Head looks very nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Stanley Posted June 27, 2009 Member Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 Amazing voxel design, Pedro! It's humbling to see how you've crafted something of this calibre so quickly. The realistic shaping of the lips and fine creases around the eye sockets are particularly impressive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Giuseppe Posted June 27, 2009 Advanced Member Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 hi Pedro Toledo, is AWESOMe work!! congratulation!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Pedro Toledo Posted June 29, 2009 Author Member Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 Thank you all very much I really appreciate the feedback! This is my second attempt to do something with Voxels. Actually, yesterday I've tried too, but it was worthless, I just couldn't find the right pressure nor the right approach. Today was easier though. Still far from what I feel comfortable, I'm still struggling with the pressure of the brushes, and the resolution. Is there a way to toggle between higher and lower resolutions? I find it very hard to change big shapes on a very high resolution mesh, and at the same time I need the resolution to define the shapes. This is something I do all the time on ZBrush, to go up and down the subd levels to work on big shapes and higher frequency details. How do you guys do to get more precision on the forms, and to add really fine details? Do you usually use Voxels all the way? Or you use it just for the initial sketch, then retopogolize and startd detailing on the traditional sculpt method? I am really interested on knowing what's the best workflow to get a final clean model out of 3D Coat. And here is the test I did today. Again starting with a sphere. Although I like the overall proportions, the fact that I am not getting a clean steady brush stroke is a bit frustrating. It may not be a problem here, because of the subject, but I wonder if I would be able to sculpt a clean young face with this technique... Maybe I just need more time really, or to retopologize. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Applink Developer haikalle Posted June 29, 2009 Applink Developer Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 Very nice work! I think that my current workflow is this. 1. Sculpt model with medium detail in Voxel mode. (Displacement map) 2. Retopoly the sculpt. 3. Use paint and sculpt mode to make high detail.(Normal map) I my mind this would be a good way to go, but I have a hard time to find a good settings for displacement and normal maps. I think that I just have to keep trying and maybe some day I have a good settings to give. I agree about adding the feature where you can switch between high and low resolution and Andrew is making it. When it comes no one knows. a About brush detail I really can't help. I never used Zbrush or Mudbox so I don't know how they work. I have only used 3d-coat from v2. Maybe it just takes time to get use to it. Your profile picture is great. You are very talented guy so I really hope that you can find I good way to work with 3d-coat. Is that the Star Wars guy?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member e214 Posted June 29, 2009 Advanced Member Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 The final details like eyewrinkles etc,tiny stuff can be done best with normal mapping after retopo. Haven't had much time lately for 3dcoat,but this is 1 brush for high detail. This picture is @ 4000000 voxels,you can check my settings in pic. I guess @ 12000000 it would be even sharper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Pedro Toledo Posted June 29, 2009 Author Member Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 Thank you, haikalle Yes, that is Wilhuff Tarkin, the Commander of the Death Star. I'm glad you recognized him! You can see some more of him on my website if you want. Thank you too, e214 So, apparently the voxels are not ready yet for delivering a really clean final sculpt, unless you retopologize or use some normal map for high frequency detail, is that it? This would be a little disappointing. I don't like retopologizing and uv'ing personal work (that's boring enough at the office :P). I wish I could just use voxels, all the way, to the final sculpt. This would be a very fast workflow. But I'll keep trying e214 - So, I may not have explained myself really clearly, I was not talking just about the brush tip, the alpha, I was trying to say that I am finding a hard time finding the right brush stroke, the right pressure, the stability, the settings and the tool that would allow me to get the results I expect for the gesture that I make with my stylus pen. Does that make sense? You know, with ZBrush, Silo or Mudbox, most of the time, I get the results I expect out of the stroke I make on my tablet. So, I see the area that I am going to work on, I visualize what I need to do to achieve the result I want, I make the strokes that I think will create the volumes I am trying to get and, most of the time, this is pretty much what I get. With voxels this is not yet happening, and I wonder if it will... Is just that until now the results are a bit unpredictable. Sometimes things move too fast, sometimes too slowly. Sometimes I get too much pressure, sometimes too little. This is a new software (at least a new module), and I am sure it will get more and more mature. I am only wondering if the very nature of the polygon meshes, where you are not adding or removing mass, you are just moving the surface, if it is not more suitable for a more precise work. Does that make sense? Thanks again guys! And, Moderator, I am sorry I posted this on the Wip's forum, instead of the voxels one. My bad! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor Tony Nemo Posted June 29, 2009 Contributor Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 "So, apparently the voxels are not ready yet for delivering a really clean final sculpt, unless you retopologize or use some normal map for high frequency detail, is that it? This would be a little disappointing. I don't like retopologizing and uv'ing personal work (that's boring enough at the office :P). I wish I could just use voxels, all the way, to the final sculpt. This would be a very fast workflow." Your work looks quite finished, and the re-topology that you deplore, would only be necessary if you wished to animate the character. The auto-quadrangulation (RMB in the Volume window) does a very thorough job and the finest details can be exported with the mesh. "I was trying to say that I am finding a hard time finding the right brush stroke, the right pressure, the stability, the settings and the tool that would allow me to get the results I expect for the gesture that I make with my stylus pen. Does that make sense?" Perfect sense and the price to pay is "experience" with this new tool (Voxels) Your experience with Zbrush, etc may be a deceptive guide for the new medium. "I am only wondering if the very nature of the polygon meshes, where you are not adding or removing mass, you are just moving the surface, if it is not more suitable for a more precise work." If this is true (and it may be for some), those tools are provided. I can think of nothing faster than to create your object in voxels and merge it to the Paint room for finishing. "Does that make sense?" Time will tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Pedro Toledo Posted June 29, 2009 Author Member Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 Yeah, I know I still need more time to fell comfortable with this new tool. I am not giving up so fast But, at the same time, the first time I used mudbox I was almost as efficient as I was on ZBrush, the same applies to Silo, the very first time was just easy, I have also tested, just for fun, Blender's sculpting tools, and it worked as I would expect. This is not happening now with Voxels. Although, as you said, these models may look like they are close to a finished look, I know I was not getting the results I was looking for. I found the voxels workflow fantastic! I agree that I can't imagine of a faster approach by now. It's simple and opens many, many possibilities. Simply put, it's awesome! I just want to know if it is only awesome for the initial sketch, the more "creative" part of the process, or if it is suitable for the whole process. You know, the same way some sculptors start with clay, then cast their models into resin, then add the finer details. This is my question, how far you can go with voxels at this moment. I am sure the tool will evolve, and I am planning on keeping using it, but I would like to know if people are using it all the way or, if at a certain point, they feel the need to topologize the voxel model to really get the right volumes and details. But, you are right, I still don't have enough time using this tool (I didn't even know of this "auto-quadrangulation" feature you talked about! :P). I am not trying to make it sound like I didn't like the software, quite the opposite, I am truly impressed with it! And I am sure I will have fun with the other modules, after all I've seen here on the forums and on the website. It's just that up to now I have only used the voxels module (the concept of modeling without topology just fascinated me) and I am getting some difficulties with it. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Applink Developer haikalle Posted June 29, 2009 Applink Developer Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 I think that you can do your model only with voxels if you want. You can do very detailed work with voxels. The only problem is the memory. Voxels eats your memory like I eat my breakfest. Meaning quickly. I have tried to avoid this problem splitting my model for several layers. Parts that needs more details and parts with less detail. I went to see your web page. And you have very nice gallery already. Nice work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor LJB Posted June 29, 2009 Contributor Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 Nice work Pedro. As our threads became somewhat linked I wanted to stop in and re-iterate these thoughts- I understand completely what you say, As a Slio, Mudbox and ZBrush artist myself what you say makes perfect sense. It 3D Coat is a great tool and I enjoy using it emmensely and I'm sure as I work longer with the tool I will find it easier to achieve a finer result but I currently I feel more comfortable doing certain things in other applications. Love the speed of Voxels but want the finish from ZBrush, and as voxels currently can't get me there as i would like, I will work within the two applications to achieve the look I require. -leigh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member e214 Posted June 29, 2009 Advanced Member Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 I have used zbrush,and indeed the brushes are more pollished. On the other hand painting nostrils,toes,fingers I prefer to do in 3d coat. Haven't gone all the way with 3d coat,but up till now I think it has not dissapointed me in any way. I prefer the freedom of voxels,then afterwards the retopology is not such a prob for me. Things like wrinkles etc should always be bumps - normals,you don't need to model that. Userbase is still small ,this is a young app,once more people start using,plugs and tips might come easier. One thing that is hard is eyelids,but that I must keep till last when I'm at 5-10 million ,havent tried though. Maybe you must also give it some time ,at least use it a few weeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member e214 Posted June 29, 2009 Advanced Member Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 One thing still. In the short time I used 3dcoat I learned that it's good to stay as long as posssible @ 500000 You can get enough detail to set out the shapes,voxels is fun (brush more predictable) this way since all works smooth. Once you go up it should be for the finer details ,so no large area smoothing is needed anymore. I found that helps a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor LJB Posted June 29, 2009 Contributor Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 I have used zbrush,and indeed the brushes are more pollished.On the other hand painting nostrils,toes,fingers I prefer to do in 3d coat. Haven't gone all the way with 3d coat,but up till now I think it has not dissapointed me in any way. I prefer the freedom of voxels,then afterwards the retopology is not such a prob for me. Things like wrinkles etc should always be bumps - normals,you don't need to model that. Userbase is still small ,this is a young app,once more people start using,plugs and tips might come easier. One thing that is hard is eyelids,but that I must keep till last when I'm at 5-10 million ,havent tried though. Maybe you must also give it some time ,at least use it a few weeks. Of course and in no way am i saying i will not use it, I will continue to use it, I think these comments may become misinterperated if we let them, that is not the intention. They are constructive is all. As to Voxels It is a great tool for medium res work where you need a Quick buildup of form but as you croach to higher detail then retop' and either Normal or poly sculpting is the best bet. Like you say the ap' is young and developing (Nicely) I for one will continue with it, once you get the brushes/pens right it feel nice to sculpt without topological constraint, And im sure as it is further developed with community support and suggestion it will just get better and better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Pedro Toledo Posted June 29, 2009 Author Member Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 Yep, this is by far the most intuitive tech I've seen so far for 3d sketching. I think the process still needs development, something like "voxel's zspheres" could be nice, it could be like the curve tool, but you could be able to set the base forms in a more complex structure (such as chest, legs, arms, head) before committing and converting the curves into voxels, then, as you said e214, adding fingers, toes, nostrils, horns, etc, these are fantastic with the current voxel method. About the workflow you suggested, yes, I can imagine that it would work better to avoid moving up the resolution before you have all the base forms defined. Unfortunately this is not my usual method. I like to go up and down the subdivision as I work. I may try that though... Also, about the finer wrinkles and other details, what you say is true for films or games, anything that is going to be animated. But if your intention is to simply sculpt, then this is not true anymore. Specially if you are going to print it. Anyway, as LJB, I will keep using the tool, I can definitely see good use for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member 3dioot Posted June 29, 2009 Advanced Member Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 Pedro and LJB, I think its great that both of you have invested this amount of time and effort into pushing 3dcoat's voxel sculpting and are willing to give feedback about it. I personally value your opinions and even share them with you. While its sometimes hard to express them on these forums because they are quickly intepreted as "dissing" 3dcoat i would like to encourage you both to keep expressing them since they are very valuable to 3dcoats development. I do not feel comments like "learn to use voxels properly" really apply here after you have obviously shown the skill and effort to produce stunning work with it. Its true voxel sculpting can be used to build base shapes for retopology and that detail could be added the traditional mesh based sculpting way or with normal maps. There is however no reason to say thats the limit of voxel sculpting. Especially not with the technology still this young. While comparing 3dcoat with traditional mesh based sculpting apps like zb and mb is almost frowned upon on this forum i think a comparable level of sculpting is definitely achievable. Because its unlikely multiresolution voxel sculpting will ever become available (technical limitation) i think its extra important the brushes are of high quality even under stress (when the system is highly taxed). Ive personally given lots of feedback and idea's during v3's development and this has resulted in some clear improvements because the developer is very open to requests. I would like to invite you to partake in this process because im certain your feedback will help improve 3dcoat. Thread While i understand many people are quite happy with 3dcoat the way it currently is (and its a great program to be fair) there are also people who think that with a bit of improvement it can grow into somethign even more fantastic. I think both of you see the possibilities and share the excitement so i hope you will choose to become involved in 3dcoat's development by continuing to give feedback. 3dioot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member e214 Posted June 30, 2009 Advanced Member Report Share Posted June 30, 2009 Quickly did this test to see if I could get sharper eyelids.,I know the eyes are not anatomical correct. I think 3d coat needs a different approach sometimes then other apps,not unhappy with this result. If you could now "lock" just the sharp contour of the eyelids and then continue modelling round it,it would help. Ps you could even go sharper on the eyeball import ,but I crashed so no pic.I think it's clear to see in first pic though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor LJB Posted June 30, 2009 Contributor Report Share Posted June 30, 2009 Quickly did this test to see if I could get sharper eyelids.,I know the eyes are not anatomical correct.I think 3d coat needs a different approach sometimes then other apps,not unhappy with this result. If you could now "lock" just the sharp contour of the eyelids and then continue modelling round it,it would help. Ps you could even go sharper on the eyeball import ,but I crashed so no pic.I think it's clear to see in first pic though. Nice approach. The only trouble i have with that is that I use the eyes to set the character and mostly roughing in the lids and they are more dependant on the character than would i think possible to prefabricate. What about a localised increase in Voxel resolution? that combined with Freezing would be a good start! I will add this to the 3.0 thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member e214 Posted June 30, 2009 Advanced Member Report Share Posted June 30, 2009 Hi LJB THere is an option in polysculpt wich lets you scale parts based on a gradient,would be nice to have this in voxels. Do eyes this way then scale to your likings. Same for nose mouth eyes etc. All faces are variations in the end of the same basic setup I think. With my "move studies" it was clear to see that you don't need to change much in a face to get a completly different character. I agree local increase would be handy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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