Andrew Shpagin Posted September 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2011 Im not able to download (cuda64)... It say file not found. Try to copy link directly in browser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Gilded Posted September 24, 2011 Member Report Share Posted September 24, 2011 I really like how the snake brush follows the direction of the stroke and reorients itself. It's something that I feel most move brushes would benefit from. This build is actually running pretty solidly for me. Right now the only problem I've run into is that the sketch tool doesn't work with the pressure on my pen, but when I switched to a mouse it worked fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Digital777 Posted September 24, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 24, 2011 This looks like a amazing update, thanks 3DC devs. By the way for the 3.5.25 [beta] post on the first page i noticed some of the links are just text still, so you might want to update it so people can click the links. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor artman Posted September 24, 2011 Contributor Report Share Posted September 24, 2011 Try to copy link directly in browser. Copying didnt help but i got it now,it lasted half an hour only cuda64 was not downloadable...not its ok. Im trying it now...and Im having such an amount of problems its not even possible to imagine (cuda/noncuda 64) (artifacts,inverted action on other side when symmetry is on,holes,weird brush behavior...). I dont think any users are having as much problem with this build as me right now.... Im not gonna flood this thread with bug pics that would be unprofessional, I will carefully post everything on Mantis. But progressively over the next few days...Im a little busy with Comicon2011 so Im going to report progressively. Here is teaser,on the many problems Im having with this build... Just me returning from Surface Mode after using Clay brush....not even Liveclay. Anyway,hopefully meanwhile others will possibly gets same problems as me so it will reduce bug report work charge on my side. But as I said I will carefully post everything on Mantis with best description and steps possible....Im really busy this week so its gonna be slow reports. Ill try reporting at least main issues tomorrow morning before going to work. (btw once I leave a thread I can't edit my posts anymore...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member 3dioot Posted September 24, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 24, 2011 @artman Its a bit unclear to me whether its useful to scrutinize this version that much. It is now "old" new tech compared to the last video that was posted by Andrew. I have spotted many "problems" as well. I think its a bit of a waste of time to point out the obvious though. Like the holes; i cannot imagine Raul not being aware of them appearing since it happened pretty much on my third stroke when playing with it. -- Andrew, perhaps you could tell us whether its useful to "stress test" LC at this stage and report bugs? 3dioot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farsthary Posted September 24, 2011 Report Share Posted September 24, 2011 Hi I really like that shader too. Is that available? Would be nice to work with at night in the dark, which is when I do most my work. Can the back ground be made black also? Or can we already do this? Yes, you can already do this, this shader is just a tweaked LambLigth shader, and the background can be set to black or any color in Edit->Preferences The extremely low res does worry me though (its also there in all the liveclay:fusion video's without exception). Im certain its performance related but it does make me wonder whether its your intention to make this work throughout all the brushes or will there be specific brushes/tools for when you want to merge or create holes? I could imagine this being "on" all the time on a mesh of higher resolution then what is shown here could slow down considerably. I'm trying to show principles, is about showing the essence of the feature, when you learn new concepts, for example in math, you start with the most basic geometric configuration, if you are learning what an angle is it does not help to start with a 20 sided complex polygon, it is the foundation of pedagogy, of course it would be cool to use a several million polys monster to showcase but that is more for a marketing department when all the features are ready and up to release and I must admit, I'm not a good sculptor so I cannot afford to spend long hours and even days in modeling Regarding performance, LiveClay has a variable performance proportional to the amount of geometry inside the influence area (obviously) and in general is good, what this means? this means that no matter how much polygon has the global model (1M, 4M, 10M? .. as long as your hardware support it ) you can still get good performance if you adjust your pen radius to the density you have locally, it has no point to try to use a big radius on a heavily tessellated region, because in a single spot you can have any amount of polys, even millions, so in that zones you reduce your radius, and this is also as should be because very dense areas are sculpted with smaller radius to gain detail and that is at the end of the modeling stage, bigger brushes are used for the beginning to create and shape the base mesh. Off course, this merge/carve option will not be "on" all the time, and it does introduce an overhead, not to big but is there, any new feature on top you add will have a performance penalty because new actions cannot happen performance free :P that's why it will remain a user toggle option but going back, if you cleverly adjust your radius, it doesn't matter the global mesh polycount even with this Regarding the reduce/smoothing, I have that prototype too... is not included in the update? I though it was.... perhaps is too dim so you can use bigger influence? And as Andrew answer you, yes, it works perfectly with any amount of local subdivision, is not constrained to even subdivision as the inspiring paper was (and the author speak about that limitation in his implementation) ... we have taken a step further :P Raul, looking at your video i'm concerned. This is very nice, but I can think of a few case where you DONT WANT surface to merge. Is there a way to prevent it ? Take the case of barely opened lips: corner get mushy, take hands on hips: finger don't need to merge with body etc. I have good news for you this feature can be also used to avoid self-intersections at any cost, so you can grow close surfaces together without mixing them, it will be a user toggle option too I just have to get one thing of my chest. There are no less then 4 (four!) toy brushes in this release. (actually there are more but I don't want a discussion about their use at this point). A toy brush is a brush that's fun to try once and then you never touch it 90% of the time. I like the term , and I agree with you, nevertheless this is not the final GUI and definitely not the final feature set, in a better brush system all of those brushes can be set as presets with artist have the freedom to add or delete as many toy or pros brushes they want, we are aware of that,but we have already our todo list full with high priorities tasks and one of them is as you have pointed, getting strong good basic tools, we release these toys brushes because even toys need feedback, and is not becoming a trend , in fact those toys tools have some math operators that are very difficult if not impossible to obtain with the traditional "pro" brushes and combined with the new features like avoid self intersection or "Merge and Carve" features they can become something very powerful Testing a bit liveclay,it's really good(good feeling)But the brushes do holes in the mesh(it seems every time you pass on the same surface location,you always have a tiny hole) Without fixing the holes problems it's impossible to test. Please can you provide me more details? of course fixing those holes is top priority for me , I do know of a bug fix that was not included in that update that solve holes issues in SwirlClay, I need to point also that the "toy" brushes under extreme deformation will cause lot of mess so is advised to use them with low influence or start slowly to avoid your model doom :P , anyway, they are too raw now but we want to see artist showcase of them, cool use of them too Hum, I thought the same a while back when first versions of liveclay got released. Truth is, they don't see everything we see, even thing that seems pretty obvious. So yeah, report, at least that's what mods here told me to...The gif I posted earlier is a good example, take a sphere, extrude some appendage with liveclay, try posing with lines, you'll see it happen, it's pretty easy to discover but I guess with all the coding they can't see everything. Oh yes, we don't see all that you see and we miss many use cases, that's why we rely on all you as beta testers please, send me detailed report of LC holes features.... In order to finish the basic functionality before start tweaking aggressively performance LC use some parameters hack's that obviously will break integration with some of the rest of the system features (not well defined freeze values, edge status not correctly set up and few others so tools that rely on correct values of those parameters will get broke ) is something I definately will work on soon. Cheers Raul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor tree321 Posted September 24, 2011 Contributor Report Share Posted September 24, 2011 Would be nice to have a "Clear all planes" button in sketch.Also invert option toggle.Also the ability to move E panel selections like circle and rectangle.X-brush uses the space bar for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor artman Posted September 24, 2011 Contributor Report Share Posted September 24, 2011 Wow! Autopo in 3.5.25 kicks some serious butts! Much,much better.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member renderdemon Posted September 24, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 24, 2011 Farsthary,I can give more details but I don't know if they are useful. Let's me explain. I saw the new update,I downloaded,and I started testing a bit live clay(starting with the base voxel sphere in surface mode). At the start,I was really surprised about Liveclay,it was working really good. After 10/15 minutes I tried using other brushes,not only the live clay one. I used also the flatten brush(as I found that there isn't a liveclay version for this) and probably the clay brush,and after a stroke(with the flatten brush if I remember) I had a problem with the mesh,so I did an undo. But from there,using liveclay brush gives me a lot of holes(and it seems the holes happen always on the same surface position ),making it not usable. So I restarded the program and tried again with the base voxel sphere(converted to surface mode). This time,from the starting of the session,I had again the same holes on the mesh(without using nothing but liveclay brush) I closed the program and opened the opengl version(64 bit cuda,before I used the directx 64 bit cuda version). Again as previously,from the start I had holes everywhere. Also smoothing(with shift key) created a lot of holes. At this point I decided to write here. Later, I opened again the direct x 64 bit cuda version and this time the problem happen not so often,only sometime,after some more testing it seems that the holes happen more with the clay brush than with the live clay brush,and now if I do undo I can continue to work. So,it's hard to understand if there is some memory problem or if it's related to liveclay or simply to surface mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farsthary Posted September 24, 2011 Report Share Posted September 24, 2011 Farsthary,I can give more details but I don't know if they are useful. Let's me explain. I saw the new update,I downloaded,and I started testing a bit live clay(starting with the base voxel sphere in surface mode). At the start,I was really surprised about Liveclay,it was working really good. After 10/15 minutes I tried using other brushes,not only the live clay one. I used also the flatten brush(as I found that there isn't a liveclay version for this) and probably the clay brush,and after a stroke(with the flatten brush if I remember) I had a problem with the mesh,so I did an undo. But from there,using liveclay brush gives me a lot of holes(and it seems the holes happen always on the same surface position ),making it not usable. So I restarded the program and tried again with the base voxel sphere(converted to surface mode). This time,from the starting of the session,I had again the same holes on the mesh(without using nothing but liveclay brush) I closed the program and opened the opengl version(64 bit cuda,before I used the directx 64 bit cuda version). Again as previously,from the start I had holes everywhere. Also smoothing(with shift key) created a lot of holes. At this point I decided to write here. Later, I opened again the direct x 64 bit cuda version and this time the problem happen not so often,only sometime,after some more testing it seems that the holes happen more with the clay brush than with the live clay brush,and now if I do undo I can continue to work. So,it's hard to understand if there is some memory problem or if it's related to liveclay or simply to surface mode. I think is related to a bit of both, a memory issue (I'm not sure I'm correctly releasing all pointers there....) and as I have explained before a not properly flag option in vertices with live clay and I may add some undo not correctly set yet .... thanks for this feedback, definitely something to work on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member michalis Posted September 24, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 24, 2011 Wow! Autopo in 3.5.25 kicks some serious butts! Much,much better.... Waiting for the mac build, artman, there's some serious upgrade there, I smell it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farsthary Posted September 24, 2011 Report Share Posted September 24, 2011 One more thing, this feature is planned to be used with any other pen tool, currently is implemented in an Inflate like brush because it is very prone to self intersections and grows fast, just development reasons, but is not very beautiful since it tends to make bulky bridges so that can be solved with other falloff types if you consider that an issue (which is not ) or some healthy tangent smooth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farsthary Posted September 24, 2011 Report Share Posted September 24, 2011 Hey guys, new update to my previous post showing the "Avoid/healing self intersections" feature too http://farsthary.wordpress.com/2011/09/24/can-you-belive-it/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member michalis Posted September 24, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 24, 2011 These are great Raul. 3dcoat is one of the most fast developing tools. The best we can expect from an inspired developer. Now, how these can be converted to sculpting tools? My question is valid, as these days pixologic unleashed the new zb4r2 build. Without introducing any new technology but just fine tuning what they had. FIne tuning! Wow, How can we help you to do the same? You need some help here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member 3dioot Posted September 24, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 24, 2011 @Raul "I'm trying to show principles, is about showing the essence of the feature..." I understand that. But still I had to ask. "Off course, this merge/carve option will not be "on" all the time, and it does introduce an overhead, not to big but is there, any new feature on top you add will have a performance penalty because new actions cannot happen performance free :P that's why it will remain a user toggle option but going back, if you cleverly adjust your radius, it doesn't matter the global mesh polycount even with this" That is good to hear. Sounds like a very practical solution. You have all the freedom, when you need it, without compromising real time sculpting. "Regarding the reduce/smoothing, I have that prototype too... is not included in the update?" It is.. I was not implying it was not in the latest beta. I was just expressing my enthusiasm over it. I am glad to see you handle feedback well and with a smile. Much respect. "Oh yes, we don't see all that you see and we miss many use cases, that's why we rely on all you as beta testers..." Understood. -- The latest update with the avoiding and healing of self intersection looks absolutely superb! That is so useful! Especially once you limit brush influence by edge length. What i mean by that is that currently (and Sculptris suffers badly from this as well) any part of your sculpt that is within the brush radius gets influenced when you sculpt. This sounds logical until you are dealing with two parts. Like a hand on/near a hip. Or the inside of legs. When you restrict influence based on edgelength from the sculpt that is under the center of the brush when you start sculpting this will give an incredible amount of control. Combined with the avoidance of self intersection this will make sculpting certain things so much easier its unreal! Happy times. 3dioot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farsthary Posted September 24, 2011 Report Share Posted September 24, 2011 What i mean by that is that currently (and Sculptris suffers badly from this as well) any part of your sculpt that is within the brush radius gets influenced when you sculpt. This sounds logical until you are dealing with two parts. Like a hand on/near a hip. Or the inside of legs. When you restrict influence based on edgelength from the sculpt that is under the center of the brush when you start sculpting this will give an incredible amount of control. Combined with the avoidance of self intersection this will make sculpting certain things so much easier its unreal! Happy times. Hmmm.... interesting point, please elaborate it a bit more since I don't think I understand it correctly... restrict influence based on edgelength I can look at it in the future (after getting rock solid all this features otherwise the community will want to lynch us ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor digman Posted September 24, 2011 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted September 24, 2011 I am getting some runtime errors when I stwitch between using LiveClay and the regular surface brushes. I first create Local SubDivison with the InflateClay brush set to a brush depth of "0" then stwitch to a Regular Surface Brush. As soon as I start brushing with a regular surface brush the program hangs with the runntime error... 3Coat 3.5.25 beta, win32 bit non-cuda DX mode. (Waiting for the linux version to test 64bit) Windows XP Pro. Request, add a toggle switch for the wireframe view... My little old pinkie finger get kinda tire holding down that W key. I will join Mantis soon to post bug reports as LC I don't think has a bug report section in the regular fourms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farsthary Posted September 24, 2011 Report Share Posted September 24, 2011 I first create Local SubDivison with the InflateClay brush set to a brush depth of "0" then stwitch to a Regular Surface Brush. As soon as I start brushing with a regular surface brush the program hangs with the runntime error...3Coat 3.5.25 beta, win32 bit non-cuda. (Waiting for the linux version to test 64bit) Windows XP Pro. hmmm I cannot repplicate that bug... for me switching between LC and regular surface tools works fine... W7 64 bits though... seems more a compile bug ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farsthary Posted September 24, 2011 Report Share Posted September 24, 2011 OH yeah he's absolutely right, I wanted to write about it earlier but I forgot. What he's trying to say is that the polys under cursor center should be the starting point of the "soft selection" inside the radius. This means that only the area near the cursor center (topologicaly) gets affected. (3dcoat vs zbrush) Ahh I see, I may be wrong but that dosn't seems very difficult to add Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member 3dioot Posted September 24, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 24, 2011 Thanks for explaining that for me BeatKitano. Jing was acting up (or it doesnt like zbrush) and i was getting frustrated with it. But that animated gif shows it nicely. And Raul, "features" dont have to be very challenging coding wise to make a real difference to the artists using them. If this is easy then all the better because its a HUGE help when you sculpt. 3dioot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philnolan3d Posted September 24, 2011 Report Share Posted September 24, 2011 I think the problem here goes WAAAY back to the very first beta of voxels like 4 years ago. Back then the cursor for voxels was a red sphere like the ones you see with the Curves tool. People complained and Andrew took the sphere object away, but I think the influence is still in the same of that sphere, you just can't see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member 3dioot Posted September 24, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 24, 2011 @phil Its not about the visualization of the brush. Of course it works with a sphere as influence volume. This is about the added functionality of being able to sculpt on a surface that is close to another surface without the other surface being influenced when you don't want it to be influenced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philnolan3d Posted September 24, 2011 Report Share Posted September 24, 2011 BTW anyone else having trouble with the cameera shortcuts like Top, Front, Left, etc.? For me they are not pointing at 0,0,0 they point off to the side of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member b33nine Posted September 24, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 24, 2011 So far the E mode (lasso) painting works like a charm when camera is zoomed really far in. I keep getting really anxious every time I let go of the stroke but it's looking awesome so far. Thanks for finally getting that one solved Andrew, it's a huge help to my workflow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member michalis Posted September 25, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 Locked radius of pen when zooming! This doesn't work right. Very useful mode under LC as zooming increases density. Is this related with this sphere influence? "Yes but like phil i've the feeling the sphere influence radius is still there without the actual sphere being there. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member 3dioot Posted September 25, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 Locked radius of pen when zooming! This doesn't work right. Very useful mode under LC as zooming increases density. Is this related with this sphere influence? "Yes but like phil i've the feeling the sphere influence radius is still there without the actual sphere being there. " Michaelis, Is there any way to turn that of? I looked for it but could not find it. 3dioot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member michalis Posted September 25, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 Turn it off? By default is turned off, I don't like it this way. When projecting painting textures it's very useful to have it off but when sculpting, especially using LC... well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member 3dioot Posted September 25, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 @michalis Does not matter what its default as long as I can change it. Since brush size has a max I need to be able to zoom out and have the brush size stay the same so i can cover a larger part of my model when i need to (when roughing out shapes with move for example). So thanks for the tip. 3dioot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor artman Posted September 25, 2011 Contributor Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 Oh yes, we don't see all that you see and we miss many use cases, that's why we rely on all you as beta testers please, send me detailed report of LC holes features.... In order to finish the basic functionality before start tweaking aggressively performance LC use some parameters hack's that obviously will break integration with some of the rest of the system features (not well defined freeze values, edge status not correctly set up and few others so tools that rely on correct values of those parameters will get broke ) is something I definately will work on soon. Sent a bunch to Mantis... Good hunt! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member MADjestic Posted September 25, 2011 Member Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 OSX users are ready to jump onto the beta-testing bandwagon, as soon as OSX build is available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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