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3DCoat "Dare to Share"?


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Much to soon to do that. Messiah has been around probably as early as lightwave 7.

Maybe 10 years already and messiah has not really taken off.

The dominance of AD and the fact that both modo and lightwave are so far behind animation features that they decided it could be good to offer messiah for small cash.

3dcoat is barely 5 years I think. too soon imho.

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I know Pilgway systems is trying to grow, but I do think this kind of event could give 3DCoat a longterm boost.

Slick idea...Let's go to every software vendor's forums and encourage them to give away their hard work, too. :nea: Each developer will do what they think is best for them. Andrew has already offered his software at cut rate prices when it was first starting out. There is no need for him to do the same again, now that he's gotten his product out there. Plus, there is always the negative byproduct from such a campaign...it can drive the perception that it's worth very little.

We all like a good deal, but when you buy something that is too cheap to be true, it also sounds a little alarm in your mind that something MUST be wrong for it to fall in price THAT much. It's no different as a freelancer. If you go around getting duped into doing work (free) for others to "Build your Resume" or offering cut-throat rates, you ultimately screw yourself over.

There are plenty of people out there looking to take the shirt off your back, and some will have the audacity to try to sell it back to you. Let's not try to be coy and expect Andrew to take a risky gamble just so you can get software on the cheap.

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Every one would like to buy anything in a descent price. Right? ;)

As for now 3DC is too expensive for me but it is not a reason to drive Adrew to cut the price.

3DS MAX. Costs WAY to much than it's worth, imo. And whats happen? Almost every professional studio use it as a principle soft.

Why? Because thinking is in this way: I have paid SO much so I bought BEST soft.

It's similar to Ferrari or any other expensive/luxury product.

It MUST cost some amount of money to BE threaten as GOOD quality product.

So Andrew should keep the price. 3DC is worth it.

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3DCoat is very affordable even for hobbyiests : you can buy the educational version for $99 if you don't want to produce commercial products with it :blink: For professionals $350 is cheap. I'm not sure they would gain anything doing this. As Beatkitano said it might actually be badly perceived.

I think the best thing to do if they want to expand their market is improve polygonal sculpting and hard surface retopology. Then Pixologic will just have to launch a big "dare to share" program and target the hobbiests market :spiteful:

And with the new features coming to surface mode, i think it won't be that long before they can compare to ZBrush for polygonal sculpting :yahoo:

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To tell ya the truth, or the way I see it, is that ZB -IS- on a dare to share challenge of sorts. For those who bought in any where near two, or even three, they have gotten FREE updates to date. I mean, no cash in-flow except for the new users. In theory...

And Seldom is it seen a showstopping bug out of a release from them.

Andrew would be well-advised to release as solid a release as possible and hold on that solid release. He's got a lot of new brain power on the team and they should develop a bit with a little UI work to boot: still feels a little un-done.

Some amazing software capabilities are about to come out of Andrew and company. Truly, a polish of it would be great.

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To tell ya the truth, or the way I see it, is that ZB -IS- on a dare to share challenge of sorts. For those who bought in any where near two, or even three, they have gotten FREE updates to date. I mean, no cash in-flow except for the new users. In theory...

And Seldom is it seen a showstopping bug out of a release from them.

Andrew would be well-advised to release as solid a release as possible and hold on that solid release. He's got a lot of new brain power on the team and they should develop a bit with a little UI work to boot: still feels a little un-done.

Some amazing software capabilities are about to come out of Andrew and company. Truly, a polish of it would be great.

+1. That's precisely what I've suggested to Andrew recently. All the work he did on Multi-Threading, New Brush Engine, Autopo and Multi-Res has gotten 3DC to the point (feature/performance wise) where it can compete on level footing, in my opinion. But the one thing they still have, is a (relatively) solid, stable product. Perhaps, with Raul now onboard, he can focus more on stabilizing the product while new features are still undergoing development.
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It was just a suggestion I never said 3D-Coat wasn't worth the asking price. I also didn't realize there would be so many negative Nancy type's here, I still think right now is an ideal time for something like this. There's the perfect storm of a bad economy, artists that are on the fence but looking, there are those that are interested but aren't going to spend $350 on a "Toy" especially in a bad economy and there are those that have trepidations about Andrew and his out front beliefs even people that share the same beliefs. Setting up a "Dare to Share" type event would burst that bubble on a lot of people and get the product in the hands of a lot more users.

Low price kills products...yeah right, look at where Blender is now. Regardless of the fact that there are some that look at Blender as a hobbyist's toy there are quite a few pros looking and talking about it in professional online forums everyday and that was unheard of 5 years ago for free software.

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It was just a suggestion I never said 3D-Coat wasn't worth the asking price. I also didn't realize there would be so many negative Nancy type's here, I still think right now is an ideal time for something like this. There's the perfect storm of a bad economy, artists that are on the fence but looking, there are those that are interested but aren't going to spend $350 on a "Toy" especially in a bad economy and there are those that have trepidations about Andrew and his out front beliefs even people that share the same beliefs. Setting up a "Dare to Share" type event would burst that bubble on a lot of people and get the product in the hands of a lot more users.

Low price kills products...yeah right, look at where Blender is now. Regardless of the fact that there are some that look at Blender as a hobbyist's toy there are quite a few pros looking and talking about it in professional online forums everyday and that was unheard of 5 years ago for free software.

Negative Nancies, eh? Easy for you to say, on the receiving end. First, how about VOLUNTEERING to give away YOUR services for free while bills come due, and with mouths to feed? Let us know how that works for you, will you? The fact that Blender is free is absolutely one reason why is has no bigger place in the market, and never will. It is perpetually in a Beta state. While it is impressive on many fronts, it is NOT a feasible BUSINESS model. It is essentially "Charityware." Comparing Open source software, largely funded by government subsidies, to a commercial one is comparing apples to oranges.

Why should Andrew take desperate measures to capitulate to those who hate him for this religious beliefs? It's their problem, not his. Again, his work speaks for itself; to the extent that some of the largest corporations in the entire world are impressed with the software (Nike and Mattel are a few of them). He doesn't need a viral "give away" to establish his product in the industry...he's doing it with hard work and outpacing the competition, development-wise.

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I sure am not an economist so only have a surface view of the matter, but for what it's worth i've seen quite often comments suggesting software X must be better than soft Y just because it has a higher price :rolleyes: . This operation is quite unusual too, so maybe if Messiah gets great success others will recycle the idea.

Also there is a difference between low priced and free open source. It's impossible to compare to blender.

I also didn't realize there would be so many negative Nancy type's here

Huh, what does that actually mean in english? :blink:

For those who bought in any where near two, or even three, they have gotten FREE updates to date. I mean, no cash in-flow except for the new users. In theory...

Woh. I didn't knew this. True that's quite unusual to get free upgrades. Very nice of them.

Still quite expansive to buy first however, at least for non-professionals, while 3DCoat is already affordable (especially with educational version open to anyone for non profit use. Yeah, if 3DCoat is just going to be a toy, it's only $99. Less than 2 videoagmes and you'll probably have fun longer :D

EDIT (cross posting is evil!)

1000 3dc license at 40US is better than 100 license at 349US.

I think it's mostly true on short term view. How much of those 1000 poeple would have bought the application anyway during the next year after they saved some money for it? How much people will still buy it for the next year after the sale? This brings quick cash but reduces long term income. At least that's what i read from people selling digital content. Even if it's not limited like material products are.

Then, i don't think quick cash is the goal of the "dare to share" campaign. PMG is actually paying us to advertise their product and the way they are paying is by offering their product for nearly nothing. They even managed to make an advertising campaing that will bring some cash by itself :good: Does 3DCoat need such an advertising? I'm not sure. I never heard of Messiah before this operation started. I've read of 3DCoat numerous times. People are talking about it in nearly every 3D related corner of the web, even the completely hobbiest areas of the "Poserverse" (where most of the people that would be attracted by such an operation reside).

Finally, there is a risk with sales. Again taking the example of the Poserverse from where i'm coming (actually it was DAZ Studio and not Poser but they are similar). DAZ, one of the biggest content providers is well known for doing sales, and good ones. So what are most people doing, they are waiting for sales to buy! :D That's great for buyers and for DAZ, but not always that great for the people actually doing the work to create the content that DAZ sells!

And of course, it's impossible to compare a small company selling and developping software to the 3D Content supermarket that DAZ is. Sure their way of doing business with continuous sales works for them, but it definitely wouldn't work for 3DCoat as it would be like actually permanently reducing the price of the software.

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Hm... after all words read above...

As far as for today Andrew is the only person able to make decision.

If He 'dare to sell' 3DC in a 1000 licences for 40$ per license... OK. Thats fine. 40.000 $ is a very nice picture ;)

If He will not.... OK too. It's HIS idea/program/effort/time/way of life (I suppose)...

All discussion imo is pointless until Andrew will tell personally what He thinks about it.

All speculations, +s and -s does not have any value. It;s up to Him.

End of thread.

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Hm... after all words read above...

As far as for today Andrew is the only person able to make decision.

If He 'dare to sell' 3DC in a 1000 licences for 40$ per license... OK. Thats fine. 40.000 $ is a very nice picture ;)

That may be a nice picture to you, but it makes no practical business sense, at all. You would exchange a year's salary in weekly installments for one month's salary in a lump sum payment? Cutting his price to $10-$40 would effectively KILL sales for the rest of the year. It's a new low for people to come here and with their first post try to be slick and suggest a developer who is as smart and works as hard as Andrew to just give his software away. Sounds just like the same kind of person who tries to get others to slave away on their own personal projects with no compensation but the pitch, "It'll look good on your resume." My reply to that is, "PAYING WORK looks good on my resume, and the side benefit is, it keeps the bills paid."

If you want a free lunch, you know where to find it....Blender.org

End of thread.
Really? And you're in position to dictate that...just how?
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I think you misunderstood him. To me, the main point of his post was to try end tell "hey people, stop arguing over this pointless discussion, only Andrew can decide what to do of his software". That's why he stated, maybe a bit roughly "end of thread". That's how i understood it, and it's with this final word that i will quit this discussion before we start thrwoing voxel dishes at each other ;)

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That may be a nice picture to you, but it makes no practical business sense, at all. You would exchange a year's salary in weekly installments for one month's salary in a lump sum payment? Cutting his price to $10-$40 would effectively KILL sales for the rest of the year. It's a new low for people to come here and with their first post try to be slick and suggest a developer who is as smart and works as hard as Andrew to just give his software away. Sounds just like the same kind of person who tries to get others to slave away on their own personal projects with no compensation but the pitch, "It'll look good on your resume." My reply to that is, "PAYING WORK looks good on my resume, and the side benefit is, it keeps the bills paid."

If you want a free lunch, you know where to find it....Blender.org

Really? And you're in position to dictate that...just how?

Hmmm.... I didn't thought that misunderstanding is very easy to appear. ;)

Too much emotions AbnRanger :)

No one said thats a must for Andrew.

No one said thats a great deal for Him.

AND no one said that Andrew is stupid enough to listen from "first post of slick smartass kid" (I'm sorry Imhotep397, it's nothing personal :) ) how to sell His product and how to manage sales.

I think it was an idea thrown to the public for discussion. That's all.

I do not see any reason to take every 'first post' so serious and as some sort of attack at Andrew's salary.

As I mentioned above, I can't afford to buy a pro licence of 3DC. Or even edu. I still learn 3DC and trial (far beyond 30 days...) is enough for me.

And, as I mentioned above too, I do not see special sense for cutting price for 3DC. Even if it was an excellent deal for me.

It's worth as much as Andrew says. And as long as He will decide.

I don't know how, but You have missed words 'IF' at the beginning of some my sentences.

40.000$ ? It's, a nice picture for everyone. Especially for those who live in a Eastern Europe, like me.

So, at least consideration of possibility to sell 3DC below the senseless price is Andrew's part.

Really, I don't care if Andrew will 'dare to anything'... as I said above. It's up to Him. It's His project, if I can say that.

I don't thread myself as able to dictate anything.

But some discussions sooner or later comes to point, in that any further words doesn't matter/make sense.

'End of thread' means no sense to discuss on things that do not depend on us.

I know that my English is far from perfect but I think it's not as hard as You misunderstood my opinion.

I think you misunderstood him. To me, the main point of his post was to try end tell "hey people, stop arguing over this pointless discussion, only Andrew can decide what to do of his software". That's why he stated, maybe a bit roughly "end of thread". That's how i understood it, and it's with this final word that i will quit this discussion before we start thrwoing voxel dishes at each other ;)

thanks Bob Morane .... so my English is not so difficult to understand as I thought :)

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The big problem for Messiah is getting new people to try their software, the market for animation software does appaer to be saturated at the moment with good products so making any inroads would be difficult. In the short term they might not be making much money but if people like it they then go on to purchase future upgrades at full price.

3D Coat has fewer competitors and also has some unique features which make it worth trying.

Messiah works with 3D coat so you can save changes and render.

It must be very frustrating for the developers at Messiah knowing they have a good product but finding it difficult to grab people's attention. But I suppose thats business.

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Adam if you stick around long enough you'll get used to AbnRanger's particular type of enthusiasm :)

Hahaha :)

So, all I have to do is to get used to ;)

I know that He is very involved in 3DC creating process and He do His best :)

I'm Andrew's a big fan (and I'm not alone) but also I know that Andrew is smarter than some of us think He really is :D

And IF He "dare bla bla bla" or not, it will not be decision without reason.

As for Messiah.... well, everyone has it's own idea to promote, sell, advertise his product. Sometimes other decisions may be strange for us, but sitting on the other side of monitor we haven't full view about reason(s) that make particular decisions. I hope that they do not catch razors edge while drowning.

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Negative Nancies, eh? Easy for you to say, on the receiving end. First, how about VOLUNTEERING to give away YOUR services for free while bills come due, and with mouths to feed? Let us know how that works for you, will you? The fact that Blender is free is absolutely one reason why is has no bigger place in the market, and never will. It is perpetually in a Beta state. While it is impressive on many fronts, it is NOT a feasible BUSINESS model. It is essentially "Charityware." Comparing Open source software, largely funded by government subsidies, to a commercial one is comparing apples to oranges.

Why should Andrew take desperate measures to capitulate to those who hate him for this religious beliefs? It's their problem, not his. Again, his work speaks for itself; to the extent that some of the largest corporations in the entire world are impressed with the software (Nike and Mattel are a few of them). He doesn't need a viral "give away" to establish his product in the industry...he's doing it with hard work and outpacing the competition, development-wise.

You're a little overly dramatic. I never said 3DCoat should be given away for free or that an offer like this should somehow be open ended. I only pointed out blender to highlight the fact that prior to blender being free you would be hard pressed to find more than two or three people you knew working in CG that knew what blender was and that's not the case now. I wouldn't be surprised if blender has been used to create assets on a few occasions by various artists for commercial production at this point. I don't characterize the Dare to Share idea as a "desperate measure" which you're so eager to label it, sure there's a calculated risk but they've also built in compensating factors to temper some of that like future upgrades, plug-ins, training materials that are all for sale and Pilgway could do the same thing. The Messiah:Studio event, when it's all said and done, will have lasted for probably less than four weeks and the last time I checked there are fifty two of those in year which leaves plenty of time to sell licenses at regular price levels.

The thing is there will eventually be and actually there is always the possibility of a hot "New Person" that could strike out on his/her own and release a good product or there could be some established company that releases a new killer feature/feature set that changes the way things are done and they attract loads of people in what is a limited size market to begin with. The companies with the most licenses have the most breathing room when major shifts happen so if 3DCoat license volumes aren't yet in a comfortable range it probably makes a lot of sense to get the app in as many hands as possible especially considering once people get used to software for a task they rarely if ever change. The fact that 3D-Coat is a solid application would only serve to help the company long term if there was an extreme bump in the numbers of users now anyway. Aside from that another company to look at could be Unity 3D, after taking on developing the Windows version of their software which wasn't designed to be cross platform they made the indie version free for all to download. The executives have re-iterated many times that making the basic app free was the best move they could have made and that they had the same kind of concerns every software developer has.

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You're a little overly dramatic.

I tend to be that way when strangers come around with a slick sales pitch, trying to sell a man the shirt off his own back..."Hey Andrew, you should give your software away too...so I get it for next to nothing. It's a brilliant marketing plan...don't you see?"

....Yeah, OK. If you say so. :rolleyes:

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I can understand AbnRanger's enthusiastic (?) response. After reading threads (here and everywhere) where 3D-Coat is not taken seriously because it's not "hip" just because it's not developed by Autodesk or Pixologic (or Apple?). I actually believe this a good thing.

But back on topic.

I bought a license for a friend who was waiting for his paycheck to arrive to buy his license, just in case the goal is reached before his paycheck. And now I have to look for a nice, cheap, usb drive to use a a dongle, as the goal seems reachable pretty soon :)

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Sorry juanmanuel wrong thread ;)

..but seriously.. I put down for 2 pro licenses now cos I can't be bothered with worrying about a dongle between work and home. Can't wait to study Timur's neckling scene setup.

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