Missing tools for sculpting morphs?

[3dCoatWannabe]

I'm going to be creating facial morphs to use in Lightwave.

I watched a DigitalTutors Mudbox video on creating facial morphs, and they had pinch, bulge, joint, etc. available when creating morphs - and really used a whole lot more than those to create their facial morphs.

I'm looking at the Sculpt room in 3.5.16D, and it seems to be missing a whole lot of useful tools that 3D Coat has in Voxels.

As I'm figuring out my workflow for character creation, I think I'll spend a lot of time creating morphs.

Am I missing something obvious (a better way to do it in 3D Coat), or is 3D Coat missing some important tools from the Sculpt room?

I've watched the 3D-Coat to Lightwave 'Connections with other apps' video LW-3DC Workflow SculptedMorphMaps.mp4

Thanks!

[AbnRanger]

I'm going to be creating facial morphs to use in Lightwave.

I watched a DigitalTutors Mudbox video on creating facial morphs, and they had pinch, bulge, joint, etc. available when creating morphs - and really used a whole lot more than those to create their facial morphs.

I'm looking at the Sculpt room in 3.5.16D, and it seems to be missing a whole lot of useful tools that 3D Coat has in Voxels.

As I'm figuring out my workflow for character creation, I think I'll spend a lot of time creating morphs.

Am I missing something obvious (a better way to do it in 3D Coat), or is 3D Coat missing some important tools from the Sculpt room?

I've watched the 3D-Coat to Lightwave 'Connections with other apps' video LW-3DC Workflow SculptedMorphMaps.mp4

Thanks!

Good observation. It's one reason why I've been asking Andrew to mirror the tools and engine from the Surface Mode in the Voxel Room over to the Sculpt Room (and call it Poly Sculpt). This way anyone bringing in a model, doesn't have to go through voxels or the retopo room if they don't want, and also to have the ability to still sculpt the finished model if they need to make some changes...without having to go back through the Voxel Room. This way, a user can choose which mode fits best for what they want to do. Sometimes Voxels make the most sense (especially creating something from scratch with Voxel Primitives and Curves tool), and other times using a Poly Sculpt room would make better sense.

You just pointed out a very good instance where that would be the case.

[RichL]

While you are correct that it would be nice to have the voxel sculpting tools, there are ways to do it with the existing tools. Using the Freeze tool to mark the part of the mesh you do not want to move around, than use the move tool to create the morph on the mesh. This is just assuming you only need to move around the face or other skin parts of the body.

That may help you out.

Rich

[3dCoatWannabe]

Good observation. It's one reason why I've been asking Andrew to mirror the tools and engine from the Surface Mode in the Voxel Room over to the Sculpt Room (and call it Poly Sculpt). This way anyone bringing in a model, doesn't have to go through voxels or the retopo room if they don't want, and also to have the ability to still sculpt the finished model if they need to make some changes...without having to go back through the Voxel Room. This way, a user can choose which mode fits best for what they want to do. Sometimes Voxels make the most sense (especially creating something from scratch with Voxel Primitives and Curves tool), and other times using a Poly Sculpt room would make better sense.

You just pointed out a very good instance where that would be the case.

Yes, I'll have to agree it's a glaring deficiency right now. I just don't see a way around it.

This has to give Mudbox or other sculpting tool users (I have zero direct experience with any) second thoughts when they look at 3D Coat or try to move to 3D Coat.

While you are correct that it would be nice to have the voxel sculpting tools, there are ways to do it with the existing tools. Using the Freeze tool to mark the part of the mesh you do not want to move around, than use the move tool to create the morph on the mesh. This is just assuming you only need to move around the face or other skin parts of the body.

That may help you out.

Rich

Rich - I honestly don't think you can do it properly without those extra tools.

You can do a few things, get maybe 50% of the way with 3D Coat, but moving the jaw down in a jointed fashion with out Pose (I think Pose works similarly to Mudbox's Joint, but it may be more powerful), etc.

Would you be as excited about Voxels without all the cool tools?

I guess I'm glad I own Mudbox, as it looks like I'll have to learn how to use it.

---------------

While I'm on the subject, I can see one other thing I'd like to be able to do in 3D Coat.

I purchased a model a while back that came with maybe 20 separate heads as the 'morphs'. I never knew exactly what to do with them in Lightwave, but I guess this is one of the 'standard' methods for creating morphs with some programs.

It would be cool if I could suck them into 3D Coat, and have 3D Coat generate 'morphs' Layers from each of the heads (with just the changes from the base head), so that I could further create and refine my own morphs from the original ones.

This would be something I could really use! And apparently, Maya works well with 3D Coat/Lightwave style morph layers, as the tutorial I watched was for Mudbox/Maya integration:

http://www.digitaltutors.com/09/training.php?cid=3&pid=363

This could be a feature that would make it easier to use 3D Coat than other products, a reason to purchase (beyond the great retopology, voxels and other features 3D Coat already has)!

[AbnRanger]

Mudbox is the easiest application among the 3 to get started in. It's very simple and straighforward....no hidden menus to find what you're looking for. Everything you need to work is right there in front of you, in easy to find locations. Layer Panel, Attributes panel beneath it, sculpt/paint/pose/transform tools all in one spot. And then all the materials/lights/stencils/stamps are in one spot. Navigation is identical to Maya's. Brush radius is "B" and mouse drag. Brush intensity is "M" and mouse drag.

Once you import your model, you just select which mode you want to work in (top of the layer panel) create a new layer, set your desired SubD level for that layer (SHIFT+D...and you can step up and down those levels instantly at any time with the PAGE UP and PAGE DOWN keys), select your desired Sculpt tool, and you're on your way.

Also, once you start working on a layer, it locks your highest chosen SubD level. You can step down, but you add more levels...once you start working. To add more SubD levels, you just create a new layer and set those levels to your liking. If we can get support for SpacePilot in the 3DConnexion Beta 10 software (supposed to be able to navigate in any 3D app., now), I may have to start using MB more. It's so simple, it's hard to imagine why ZBrush has to be so foreign to new users.

Nevertheless, I think the tools in 3DC's Sculpt Room are more than adequate for facial morphs. You have gradient (Soft) selection abilities, and can choose to grow or contract the selection...pinch, inflate, etc. And I've noticed that the speed in the Sculpt Room is surprisingly fast compare to what it used to be. I guess the work Andrew did late last year in the area of Multi-threading and overhauling the brush engine (application-wide), made a big difference there too. All the more reason I think Surface Mode tools would be a great addition to that room.

[robotbob]

i am new to 3d coat also. animation is what i do sir ! and i recently tried 3dcoat for morph creation to include in my studio pipeline. the test result is attached. i also felt that more could be done. mostly i was frustrated at not easily being able to select and modify single points. i should say that he morphs in the attached test were done very very quickly. which is 3dcoats specialty. precision is not 3d coats specialty. i have only executed this one test but in all i probably exported 10 morphs in 30 mins and that included alot of first time tool fails. you see alot of stretching in the forehead. i think i could get this much better in test two, but i think the sculpt moorph creation could be so much more powerful. i am hoping that the new poly sculpt guy that Andrew has brought on will give us this but i am not certain.

animation link below

coat morph animation

please update this thread with your own tests.

p

[thedaemon]

I am interested in purchasing 3d-coat for some texture painting/sculpting but if morphs are possible that would save me a ton of trouble exporting to Messiah:Studio. I'm currently having to create seperate obj or lwo files for each morph in Wings3d. It seems the functionality that I want isn't in any app but Lightwave!! hehe Why don't modeling apps support morphs more often than not? I digress.

[3dCoatWannabe]

Nevertheless, I think the tools in 3DC's Sculpt Room are more than adequate for facial morphs. You have gradient (Soft) selection abilities, and can choose to grow or contract the selection...pinch, inflate, etc. And I've noticed that the speed in the Sculpt Room is surprisingly fast compare to what it used to be. I guess the work Andrew did late last year in the area of Multi-threading and overhauling the brush engine (application-wide), made a big difference there too. All the more reason I think Surface Mode tools would be a great addition to that room.

I'm sure that a good artist could create facial morphs with the existing tools in 3D Coat, but ... I sculpt kind of like a dog writes poetry, so I'm going to need all the help I can get! Those other tools certainly looked useful and handy in the tutorial.

From a marketing perspective, I do feel they are important, as users familiar with other programs will miss them and maybe base their purchasing decision on them. And the goal is to move everyone to 3D Coat (and keep the evil AD empire at bay), right?

Maybe we should bring this up on the beta thread, and see if others feel the same way? The sculpt room just seems a bit bare to me? I'd really rather use 3D Coat and learn yet another tool.

As to creating the morphs, the Digital Tutors Mudbox tutorial was very useful. I have a good grasp of how it all works.

But, I'm confused on a few things.

Instead of using Mudbox to move the eyebrows to match the expressions he create, he used Maya. Kind of nudged it into place like a caterpillar.

And he also used Maya to move the teeth.

I'm not sure why he didn't use Mudbox?

My real concern right now is moving/opening/closing the entire mouth, along with the teeth (and moving the tongue) to create morphs for singing, as I think I understand the basic concepts of how to create the other facial morphs like happy, sad, angry, etc. - but I haven't seen the teeth, jaw movements, tongue movements demonstrated in a tutorial.

The jaw especially has to move in a jointed fashion (I guess the Mudbox Joint tool will come in handy).

[robotbob]

typically teeth and tongue would be controlled using a FFD cage. You could use morphs for these objects however as you might combine morphs in your animation package on a per need basis, you wont necessarily have these combined morphs doing what you want for the teeth, so you will get poke thru. so FFD deformations help you create these when required. and also you will normally have a jaw joint in your rig which gives you that jaw range.

[philnolan3d]

I am interested in purchasing 3d-coat for some texture painting/sculpting but if morphs are possible that would save me a ton of trouble exporting to Messiah:Studio. I'm currently having to create seperate obj or lwo files for each morph in Wings3d. It seems the functionality that I want isn't in any app but Lightwave!! hehe Why don't modeling apps support morphs more often than not? I digress.

Messiah accept LWO files with morphs and 3DC exports LWO files with morphs.

[thedaemon]

Thank you philnolan3d, I was not 100% sure. I'm super excited about working 3d-coat into my toolset!

[Javis]

Hiya,

Here's a quick video covering the topic:

[thedaemon]

Javis, as usual you are my source of 3d coat knowledge! Thanks for the video, I was just coming back here to ask about how to create the morphs as I couldn't find anything in the manual at all.

Hiya,

Here's a quick video covering the topic:

[3dCoatWannabe]

Hiya,

Here's a quick video covering the topic:

Yes, as I mentioned in my first post:

"I've watched the 3D-Coat to Lightwave 'Connections with other apps' video LW-3DC Workflow SculptedMorphMaps.mp4"

Your tutorial is excellent. However, compared to the Tutorial on facial animation with Mudbox (http://www.digitaltutors.com/09/training.php?cid=3&pid=363), 3D Coat is missing a lot of tools (that mostly already exist for voxels) in the Sculpt room.

I can't claim to be a competent artist (a great artist could make do with less tools).

But, as an incompetent artist, having those extra tools would make it a lot easier for me, so unless Andrew decides that adding to the the Sculpt room tools is a priority, I'll be learning/using Mudbox to create my morphs.

I really hope he does this, for the reasons I've outlined in my previous posts. I certainly want 3D Coat to surpass the competition in every way, and am certainly not enjoying learning yet another tool (as the intro to Mudbox tutorial is about 4 hours long, Ahhh!)

[Javis]

Javis, as usual you are my source of 3d coat knowledge! Thanks for the video, I was just coming back here to ask about how to create the morphs as I couldn't find anything in the manual at all.

NP! I'm glad to be of some use.

Yes, as I mentioned in my first post:

"I've watched the 3D-Coat to Lightwave 'Connections with other apps' video LW-3DC Workflow SculptedMorphMaps.mp4"

Your tutorial is excellent. However, compared to the Tutorial on facial animation with Mudbox (http://www.digitaltu...p?cid=3&pid=363), 3D Coat is missing a lot of tools (that mostly already exist for voxels) in the Sculpt room.

I can't claim to be a competent artist (a great artist could make do with less tools).

But, as an incompetent artist, having those extra tools would make it a lot easier for me, so unless Andrew decides that adding to the the Sculpt room tools is a priority, I'll be learning/using Mudbox to create my morphs.

I really hope he does this, for the reasons I've outlined in my previous posts. I certainly want 3D Coat to surpass the competition in every way, and am certainly not enjoying learning yet another tool (as the intro to Mudbox tutorial is about 4 hours long, Ahhh!)

I completely agree! 3DC could definitely improve here. The sculpt room is lackluster, as the tools are outdated and only get some very general things done, not completely useless, but... Close. My hope is that Andrew & Raul will implement all of the new changes they have made recently to the surface mode into the sculpt room (it's all just polygons anyway!). I've had plenty of times where I just need to sculpt some polys (not in the paint room) for morph maps and it would be much easier if 3DC had the abilities of the surface mode, instead I model them in LW or Modo.

Andrew has been saying for about a year and a half now that he could implement the changes, duplicating all of the brushes from surface mode into the sculpt room. The one big factor IMHO, is that not a lot of people are vocal about it. If we got enough folks to start discussing it with Andrew, I'm certain these changes would happen.

[philnolan3d]

I think the biggest problem is that the Paint / Sculpt rooms have trouble dealing with high amounts of polys. If that is taken care of then Sculpt room "surface" tools could be implemented and it could maybe work a little more like Mudbox.

[AbnRanger]

I think the biggest problem is that the Paint / Sculpt rooms have trouble dealing with high amounts of polys. If that is taken care of then Sculpt room "surface" tools could be implemented and it could maybe work a little more like Mudbox.

I'm sure Andrew would have to do some optimizing, and I certainly hope that CUDA might get some action in the process, but after doing some tinkering in the Sculpt room with a terrain recently, it seemed a lot faster than it used to be...before Andrew implemented all the Intel Libraries and multi-threading. Andrew seemed to send mixed signals a while back, about whether Surface mode tools would be mirrored to the Sculpt Room or not.

I think he wants to put all of his efforts into building the Voxel sculpting toolset, and that's understandable. However, I think an overhauled Poly Sculpt room opens up the possibilities. Because, let's face it, one of the major advantages to the workflow in ZB and MB is the ability not only to step up and down levels of SubD, but the ability to mask on those layers and dial the strength of those layers. That's very powerful, and the closest thing we have to that now, is in the Paint Room.

[3dCoatWannabe]

Hiya,

Here's a quick video covering the topic:

Javis - I'm trying to create my first morph from a 3D Coat file (not exported from Lightwave).

It has one 'object' and a number of layers already for head, body, etc.

If I lock the objects, and create a new layer in the sculpt room, the move tool does nothing.

If I unlock the object, the move tools moves the model while my new layer is selected, but ... when I turn off the layer or delete it, the 'move' changes are still there, I guess applied to the base model.

I think I'm following your video closely, so I must be making some obvious 'beginner' mistake!

Thanks!

[thedaemon]

A bit late on this, but there is one problem I see. LWO with morphs can only be made in Lightwave, as I don't own it, is there another solution? I use Messiah, Blender, and Wings3D.

[Carlosan]

Javis, thanks for the video.

 

using 4.06A

 

the move tools moves the model, but ... when I turn off the layer or delete it, the 'move' changes are still there, I guess applied to the base model.

 

If i export model using the export morph option and lwo file format... only the morph result is exported...

 

Any help is welcome

[Javis]

A few builds ago this was broken (but then fixed), and it appears it's back. I'd recommend a mantis report for it.

[Carlosan]

ty Javis