Advanced Member renderdemon Posted September 25, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 Michalis, I'm not saying WE can't influence developement,but everybody, as a Whole unity. I'm not against nobody here, but I have my workflow, you probably have your,someone else another one, we are not equals,so development should find general solution to problems,not what a guy likes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Digital777 Posted September 25, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 So if pixologic "copied" 3dcoat. it's OK for me. What isn't OK is that 3dcoat doesn't copy zb and sculptris tools behavior. It's just the way things work in every industry i guess and it's been that way for a long time, big company's look at what the indie developers do and then take the ideas and credits because then they get seen by a bigger audience/user base. You are right though, 3DC should now look at any improvements made with "borrowed" features like the Shadow Box and add them into 3Dc with even better improvements. ZB seems to be trying to make the point of "anything you can do we can do better" as if 3DC and ZB are in a game of chess right now and they have just made their move. The amazing LiveClay system is getting better and even though 3DC gets regular updates and we know a few hints of things planned like a updated gui and a better tools/brush system i am guessing there more major things in the works not yet revealed to us so it will be interesting to see how 3DC responds back to ZB's recent update. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member michalis Posted September 25, 2011 Author Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 "anything you can do we can do better" Not so bad, not always true, unfortunately. he he , anything? like retopology for instance? On the other hand, some humble additions are what makes my day. "ZBrush4R2 has a "Check Mesh" and a "Fix Mesh" functions. The "Fix Mesh" will auto-fix mesh problems including non-manifold." How many zb users noticed this humble addition? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member michalis Posted September 25, 2011 Author Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 Beatkitano and all other friends here. No, pixo did something worse. They killed new technology when they stopped dr petters from developing auto retopology. Sculptris with the addition of a retopology tool is by far superior to this dynamesh. Now, did they stopped him or he couldn't do it right? You have to figure out. The only I can say is that I worked for them as beta tester. They buried all my work, though I had the more catches (bugs). I thought that we were testing the GoZ sculptris to zb. And indeed there were the most bugs. You get the message now? Eat this ridiculous dynamesh now in place of this: http://www.zbrushcentral.com/showthread.php?96408-Playing-with-polygons-topology good luck pixologic, you always know how to make perfect tools. This only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member spacepainter Posted September 25, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 Wow I did'nt know they integrated voxels into the Z workflow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member michalis Posted September 26, 2011 Author Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 Well, I managed to download it this morning. Wow, very nice. Interesting renderer! The first I tried and had success was to import a sculptris tri mesh, duplicate it, use dynamesh at the lower settings, a 2k quad and some tri mesh. You know the rest, subdivided and reprojected as cage. Another quasi auto retopo method, extremely fast and useful in some cases. Indeed why to retopo a static mesh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member michalis Posted September 26, 2011 Author Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 And working all day on this zb r2. Just one thing 3dcoat and sculptris are miles away ahead. My humble opinion. The new zb r2, is stable under OSX and my machine, no crashes so far. But didn't find anything fantastic on this. A new good zbrush with some more useful tools. Dynamesh will be helpful for me but not in a way of great importance. I'm a 3dc owner, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Shpagin Posted September 26, 2011 Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 I looked this technology in depth. It are really voxels. They use exactly same algorithm for remeshing as in File->Export dense quads. When remeshing they create temporary volume object, make quads using same algorithm as dense quads and then forgetting the volume, remain just surface. Of course such re-mesh may produce only uniform quads distribution and will never give sharp edges (exactly as voxels). Really nice solution, my respect. Of course this quadrangulation will produce a lot of 3 and 5 stars. And LC will go forward - non-uniform distribution + arbitrary topology changes + possibility to get sharp cuts via boolen CutOff or crease tool. This technology works approximately as surface room + press ENTER sometimes. Also I don't see subtraction of subtool, only aditive merging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member renderdemon Posted September 26, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 And working all day on this zb r2. Just one thing 3dcoat and sculptris are miles away ahead. My humble opinion. The new zb r2, is stable under OSX and my machine, no crashes so far. But didn't find anything fantastic on this. A new good zbrush with some more useful tools. Dynamesh will be helpful for me but not in a way of great importance. I'm a 3dc owner, right? I agree with you,and Dynamesh is an useful tool,but more if you don't want to use an external program to start the work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Shpagin Posted September 26, 2011 Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 A bit more observation - probably it are not voxels but just shadowbox. If you have some piece that is not visible from x y or z axis then remesh will not be successful. But I am not sure about this. This will not give you real freedom and even will not allow to combine all pieces correctly. I may not check but if someone may check this assumption, please post there. There is example of what may have problems with remeshing - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member michalis Posted September 26, 2011 Author Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 Andrew I tried this. Please, if you have some difficult cases I wold like to test them. If these are voxels I don't know, but not shadowbox. the topology of the mesh is a bit deferent than dense quads. A lot of tris trying to keep faces evenly subdivided. Imported from blender and remeshed (dynamesh at 128) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Shpagin Posted September 26, 2011 Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 So, thare are triangles too? Not just quads? From your picture it really looks not like shadowbox but rather like voxels. I will attach object to test. It could be good to get remeshed obj file to analyse probable technology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member michalis Posted September 26, 2011 Author Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 Lot of triangles in zb r2 dynamesh. You know Andrew, as trying to keep evenly subdivided surface when retopo. Tris is the only solution in this case, but rather a larger tri subdivided in 3 quads. No, dynamesh uses tris. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member michalis Posted September 26, 2011 Author Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 Please moderators. Why I don't have permissions to edit my post? Anyway, here a closer look of dynamesh. DynMesh at lower settings, subdivided and reprojected. (a quasi retopo cage) These tris exist at 1024 res as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Shpagin Posted September 26, 2011 Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 That looks interesting. It is definitely not shadowbox and not dense quads. I was experimenting with such remeshing some time ago. Funny, I forgot to remove it from Retopo menu (as experimental stuff). There is Retopo->VoxCleanup. It will create mixed quad/tris retopo mesh over voxel volume that looks very close to vhat I see there. It is based on refinement of marching cubes algorithm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor digman Posted September 26, 2011 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 My respect to you Andrew as a developer that you willing to talk about another competitor's software on your own forum. That to me shows a great mind... Michalis, that is the new forum rules, you get ten minutes to edit your post and that's it. I have deleted post so I can just correct some spelling and then posted again. The reasons for the change was not mentioned in the rely I got about it from the webmaster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Giuseppe Posted September 26, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 My respect to you Andrew as a developer that you willing to talk about another competitor's software on your own forum. That to me shows a great mind... yes, agree with you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor artman Posted September 26, 2011 Contributor Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 Also I don't see subtraction of subtool, only aditive merging. Just hold ctr-alt using transpose.Next time when you trigger dynamesh negative booleans will occur between. Or just hold Alt key while using of the insert brushes. The thing that impress me the most about Dynamesh's remeshing is how well it handle thin surfaces,in 3dCoat I would need 2-3million polys at least to not get holes in on thin surfaces.(of course I can merge to sf mode without voxelising to preserve thin surface...but densequad export does not work from surface mode.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor artman Posted September 26, 2011 Contributor Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 There is Retopo->VoxCleanup. It will create mixed quad/tris retopo mesh over voxel volume that looks very close to vhat I see there. It is based on refinement of marching cubes algorithm. Where is that? I can't seem to find it.(I looked pretty much everywhere...maybe its is some previous build?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Shpagin Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 Where is that? I can't seem to find it.(I looked pretty much everywhere...maybe its is some previous build?) Oh, looks like it is present only in debug build. Maybe I will enable it just for test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor artman Posted September 27, 2011 Contributor Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 Oh, looks like it is present only in debug build. Maybe I will enable it just for test. Cool! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor artman Posted September 27, 2011 Contributor Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 Is it the tessellation method you talked about some times ago? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Shpagin Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 Is it the tessellation method you talked about some times ago? Yes, exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member michalis Posted September 27, 2011 Author Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 LOL this looks similar to dynamesh. Indeed. Still testing my new toy (ZBr2). Already noticed that it's unstable, unfortunately. There's a major issue (screen redraw?) with, guess what! You may already found it! Retopology. Vertices, the cage becomes invisible as navigating-working. You have to guess where vertices are, click one, visible again, navigate, invisible again and so on. After some attempts, crashing. No recovery in this case, surprise! This isn't a zbrush troubleshooting forum of course but I have a chance for some good answer. More about dynamesh. Some notes: -It's not a good friend of sculptris or other obj coming from dynamic tessellation. The limitation of resolution will kill all the nice details on denser areas. As with voxels. But with 3dc voxels is very easy and workable enough to drop a 1 M tessellated mesh on ~10-12 M vox. Not possible for zbrush. -trying to imitate an art master and you imitate all his disadvantages (picasso). I could thing the same for 3d sculpting apps. Dynamesh is an impressive imitation of traditional clay, having real time great shaders and this new function (polish clay) I could say the same for 3dcoat clay. My opinion is that digital sculpting doesn't need to imitate traditional sculpting. There're some advantages, so new nicely tuned tools have to exist. Like the grab, pinch +- on surface, etc . To be able to render an impressive imitation of traditional matières and artistic actions is impressive but these are the disadvantages of real clay-sculpting. There're some advantages though LOL, where are they? A 10 mins ridiculous doodling, just trying to understand the tools. The new zbrush shaders and renderer are impressive though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Digital777 Posted September 27, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 Those wireframes remind me of groboto's SeamNet Meshes a bit, you can see the results it has on this page - http://www.groboto.com/v3/Samples/samplemodels/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member michalis Posted September 27, 2011 Author Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 @Digital777 I think it isn't the same. Groboto uses parametric already meshes for the booleans. It also tries to make crisp loops on edges and great tricks with masks (for zb use). Where did you see loops in the above method? Look at the hole on the bottom of the mesh artman posted. No loop there. A problem for sculpting isn't it? more about zbrush 4 r2 re-topology tool, Back faces now are black and non selectable. WOW but confusing. Now you can move vertices and keep snapping. WOW. Now you subdivide-cut an edge and vertices don't snap. WOW. You have to go in move mode and select these vertices, now snapping. WOW. This is what I call technology. Behind the glamorous scene... They still didn't answer to my report... they won't. Or, more probably, they can't. Retopology as other technical methods is anti artistic. Pixo's declaration, official almost. As in real clay... armatures, involving with plaster or metal or stones, marbles... very anti artistic all these. To wait for oil to dry... why don't you use acrylics? BECAUSE I HATE THEM. Why watercolors? No undos. I DON"T LIKE UNDOS, Why not digital painting? BECAUSE I DON"T NEED IT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member spacepainter Posted September 27, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 Materials are for nerds. Modern artists use concepts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member michalis Posted September 27, 2011 Author Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 Yeah, but materials is what I see in ZB4R2, Waiting for R2D2? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor LJB Posted September 27, 2011 Contributor Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 So after this shoooort session, I can say that the only thing missing from 3dcoat at this point is good brush feeling. Cause that dynamesh thing is definitely nothing new for a good ol' 3dcoat user Zbrush user on the other hand will absolutely love it, it's a nice new way to start project without the assle of modeling a base mesh. If you want to know how it feels and don't have the update yet, simply start with a polymesh sphere in zbrush, remesh at low res, continue to shape, and push the remesh at max, remesh, project. Congratulation you just clicked dynamesh button Exactly!!!! Oh and watching those Damn videos I felt that this Dynamesh was immidiate, Not quite, Nothing like Pixologic to make some obscure way to activate this tool like Masking outside the Sculpt to remesh. Its actually quite annoying when you have to Inmport and transpose multi objects. It happens before your ready if you loose the mask. Ists actually more of a shortcut script that an actual new tool. Don't be fooled by the hype. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor LJB Posted September 27, 2011 Contributor Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 Exactly!!!! Oh and watching those Damn videos I felt that this Dynamesh was immidiate, Not quite, Nothing like Pixologic to make some obscure way to activate this tool like Masking outside the Sculpt to remesh. Its actually quite annoying when you have to Inmport and transpose multi objects. It happens before your ready if you loose the mask. Ists actually more of a shortcut script that an actual new tool. Don't be fooled by the hype. But Im not ZB hater at all ZB and 3DC work well combined Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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