3D-Coat 3.7 updates thread

[philnolan3d]

With the LC tools the subdivision is handled via the Detail slider on the Options panel. The resolution will also increase when you use a smaller brush size. You can also use LiveClay with 0 depth if you only want to increase res without changing anything.

Video:

http://screencast.com/t/EF3qy5JtdQDu

You can also use the regular multires option to reduce the resolution by clicking the hard drive icon on the Voxtree layer, then cliking again to return to full res. You can control how much it is reduced in the Voxel menu under Proxy visualization. Normal voxel sculpting has an Increase Resolution button at the bottom of the VoxTree but I've discovered that if you try to use this in Surface mode you lose any Surface sculpting you've done.

[simmsimaging]

Thanks 3DArtist and Phil - I really appreciate the time you are taking to help me out here.

Re: local res with the brush: that's a good trick I tried this approach and it works, but it's difficult to get a smooth and consistent subdivision around the whole model (and I think it needs a lot of subdivision to get reasonable resolution out of direct painting.) I tried using the marquee tool to do it more globally but that didn't seem to work at all with the LC brush.

I found an option to subdivide on merging the object (in the pop-up that has the merging options in the voxel room) but if I subdivide more than once (in surface mode) it tends to fail so it's not really useable either - although it worked okay if merging to regular voxel mode from what I could see.

I did try going into regular voxel mode to increase the res with the res+ button, but the geo gets voxelized as well as losing any painting. Losing the painting at that stage is no big deal - this is a step that would happen before painting anyway, but I also get a lot of artifacts and loss of detail in the resulting mesh. I guess this might be okay if I retopologize back to the original mesh and bake the texture for that.

However, I'm not so sure about the direct painting approach for reasonably hi-res work. In order to get a decent level of detail in the texture I had to increase the voxel res to 32million poly's (2400mb object) before going into the paint room. This gave me pretty good res in the texture - say about on par with a 3-4K map, but it is still a bit chunky looking and at that stage the performance of the brushes is about the same as the normal paint room tools (e.g large brushes are laggy or don't work at all until I scale them down, things like that).

I had similar experiences with polypainting in Zbrush: it's pretty good for low to medium res stuff, but for really hi-res detail it just doesn't cut it without a super hi-poly mesh, which gets cumbersome to work on.

Anyone else playing with high res and finding different results?

/b

[philnolan3d]

I just tried this. Right now you lose any painting you've done but you can globally increase res by right-clicking the VoxTree layer and picking Resample, then choosing whatever res you want. This retains the shape of the sculpture. Hopefully Andrew can make it keep the paint. There is also a little faceting with extreme changes like in my example but this can be cleaned up by softly brushing over it with the Smooth tool.

[Javis]

I just tried this. Right now you lose any painting you've done but you can globally increase res by right-clicking the VoxTree layer and picking Resample, then choosing whatever res you want. This retains the shape of the sculpture. Hopefully Andrew can make it keep the paint. There is also a little faceting with extreme changes like in my example but this can be cleaned up by softly brushing over it with the Smooth tool.

The 3.7.04 build is for mac only right now, so it should work on a mac (will test here a little later today).

[simmsimaging]

I just tried this. Right now you lose any painting you've done but you can globally increase res by right-clicking the VoxTree layer and picking Resample, then choosing whatever res you want. This retains the shape of the sculpture. Hopefully Andrew can make it keep the paint. There is also a little faceting with extreme changes like in my example but this can be cleaned up by softly brushing over it with the Smooth tool.

That's not the case for me. See the screen cap - this is what happens when I used resample. Why is this one so much worse?

[philnolan3d]

You didn 't make the res high enough to handle the detail, at least I assume you're refering to the eye area. Consider that you wanted an even amount of detail all around, that means that the triangles will be all the same size. So in order to increase the detail around the eye you'll have to increase the poily count everywhere else too. This is why LiveClay is popular you can only increase the detail where it's needed. If you're taliking about the sort of grid like pattern on the legs, that's the faceting I was talking about.

[simmsimaging]

You didn 't make the res high enough to handle the detail, at least I assume you're refering to the eye area. Consider that you wanted an even amount of detail all around, that means that the triangles will be all the same size. So in order to increase the detail around the eye you'll have to increase the poily count everywhere else too. This is why LiveClay is popular you can only increase the detail where it's needed. If you're taliking about the sort of grid like pattern on the legs, that's the faceting I was talking about.

Thanks for the help Phil.

I'm not sure you are following me, or I grossly misunderstand the resampling dialog: the left side is the base mesh imported. It's maybe 125,000 polys as reported in the resample dialog. The actual mesh is considerably less and still appears ok. Resampling it *up* to 250K (again, as reported in that resampling dialog) gave me the result on the right. What doesn't make sense is that I gave it *more* poly's than it had, but it shows less detail? What am I missing here?

Also: I don't want selective increase in poly count, because for texture painting like this that means some parts of the texture are going to look crappy and some fine - for polypainting you want it all to be evenly high res. For that reason the selective LC thing is counter productive, at least to me.

[simmsimaging]

Just on the subject of res as well - see the attached image. It's just a rough paint of a material onto the model. THe left side shows the material in the viewport, the right is the painted result. This is with a voxel mesh showing nearly 16million polys. I think the degradation in the image is too much for hi-res work, but would be fine for medium distance etc. Is this something others are experiencing, or is it maybe just this mesh?

My testing shows that I probably need 30-50million polys to get a solid clean texture, and I"m a bit concerned that there is yet another stage of baking that has to happen so more quality may be lost. Is it a limitation of the process maybe?

/b

[philnolan3d]

Well it's hard to tell since I can't see how your detail is spread out. But like I said this spreads the polys out evenly. Consider this little example I made up in LightWave for demo purposes. On the left we have 40 polys with the most detail in one corner. On the right we have 64 polys, spread out evenly. It's more polys but there's less detail in that corner.

[simmsimaging]

Just to be clear: resampling also evens out the polygon size as well as just increasing the res? I didn't realize that, or it hadn't sunk in. In any case, I don't think that is the root of the issue. I just tried it again, going from the base size and resampling to 10m polys in one go - which is certainly enough to hold the detail - and it looked pretty much exactly the same. The eyes were mangled and the body was chunky and rough looking. Pretty much the exact same as going to only 200K

/b

EDIT: here is the wire view to see the mesh distribution

[philnolan3d]

Yes I thought you were asking for even detail all over.

From your website I see you do some pretty detailed work. Keep in mind though, that depending on distance from the camera, you don't always need to paint every hair on that fuzzy sweater or pore in the character's skin if it's so far away that you'll never see it. Also consider parts of the model that may never be seen like the bottoms of feet or scalp if you're using CG hair.

[Zeddicus]

Are you after clean edges with VoxLayer like this?

Yes, exactly like that along with the ability to keep all hard edges nice and sharp. Then I delete the cube/sphere/etc layer so that I'm left with the VoxLayer creation only. All my edges keep ending up crinkled. I can smooth out these artifacts a little bit, but that leads to rounded edges and areas where the mesh sinks inward (losing it's planar appearance, usualy near corners). It's been a lot more difficult getting good results out of 3DC compared to ZB, but I'm positive it can be done. I just can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. High resolution 4m plus starting meshes and different brush types don't help, while smooth all tends to cause it's own strange stair-stepping artifacts.

[LorenzoS]

Mac build working without a hitch here.

[philnolan3d]

BTW sorry Brett, I just realized you said you already tried Resample. I missed that. There is no subdividing option due to the way voxels worked I think.

[LorenzoS]

Mac build working without a hitch here.

[digman]

Resampling in surface mode is problematic at this current stage. Simmisimaging is correct that it produces at times facet trianglates in the mesh. It seems random. On some models no problems, others yes the tris appear. I avoid resampling in surface mode for now. We are still in beta so I'm sure Andrew will look at it.

Simmismaging, yes you are correct at this beta stage of vertex polypainting it is still somewhat rough. I would say it's to early to say we can not get better resolution out of polypainting. Posting to mantis the above and about your findiings on polypainting helps Andrew work on optimizing these areas...

[Polygoon]

@ Simmsimaging, I don't know if this might help your situation currently as it is a little confusing to me as to what is happening for you, but when you import your mesh, (I presume thats what you are doing) before you hit "Enter" you can subdivide your mesh in the "Merge" object pop up. I have found this gives quite a nice local subdivison result. Perhaps you know this already, but just in case, I thought I'd mention it.

Looking at what is happening to you when you increase res., it seems to be loosing the localised subdivision for some reason.

@ mercy, I too would be very interested in how you are achieving that very nice result. What sort of res./ polycount are you using? What brush & settings do you use to paint the freeze?

And whilst on the layer tool. I think it would be handy if you were able to use a negative value, if that would at all be possible. Currently I paint where I would like indents then "Shift-Ctrl-I" and invert freeze selection, but in many cases this results in pretty much all of the model being painted with freeze and consiquently a large load on the processing and I run out of Physical Memory.

[philnolan3d]

I found my own frog to test with. What I did was go into the Voxel room and use Merge, picked my frog model, chose the option "Merge without Voxelizing", and hit the subdivide button 4 times. I probably could have done 5 for more detail. Around the 4th time the mesh gets real funky looking but don't worry that will go away after you hit Enter which is the next step. Then I was able to go to the Paint room and paint on my frog with no problem.

[simmsimaging]

Yes I thought you were asking for even detail all over.

From your website I see you do some pretty detailed work. Keep in mind though, that depending on distance from the camera, you don't always need to paint every hair on that fuzzy sweater or pore in the character's skin if it's so far away that you'll never see it. Also consider parts of the model that may never be seen like the bottoms of feet or scalp if you're using CG hair.

I was asking about even detail for sure, but only in whatever capacity was needed for even texture res. I understand your point about the value of low detail areas, but that's not the problem I'm looking to solve just yet!

Resampling in surface mode is problematic at this current stage. Simmisimaging is correct that it produces at times facet trianglates in the mesh. It seems random. On some models no problems, others yes the tris appear. I avoid resampling in surface mode for now. We are still in beta so I'm sure Andrew will look at it.

Simmismaging, yes you are correct at this beta stage of vertex polypainting it is still somewhat rough. I would say it's to early to say we can not get better resolution out of polypainting. Posting to mantis the above and about your findiings on polypainting helps Andrew work on optimizing these areas...

Thanks for confirming that issue. I do realize that it is a beta still, but at this phase I need to ask the questions because there is no way for me to tell which problems are just user error, which are beta limits and which are limits of the process. I also see value in pointing out what might be a big limit on the process because it may save me and a lot of other people a bunch of wasted time trying to use the wrong tool for the job. Anyway, I'm not trying to hack on it, just figure out what it can do

@ Simmsimaging, I don't know if this might help your situation currently as it is a little confusing to me as to what is happening for you, but when you import your mesh, (I presume thats what you are doing) before you hit "Enter" you can subdivide your mesh in the "Merge" object pop up. I have found this gives quite a nice local subdivison result. Perhaps you know this already, but just in case, I thought I'd mention it.

Looking at what is happening to you when you increase res., it seems to be loosing the localised subdivision for some reason.

Thanks. I did try that but it was failing to merge after subdividing so I gave up on that approach. It only worked when in voxel mode, not surface.

[simmsimaging]

I found my own frog to test with. What I did was go into the Voxel room and use Merge, picked my frog model, chose the option "Merge without Voxelizing", and hit the subdivide button 4 times. I probably could have done 5 for more detail. Around the 4th time the mesh gets real funky looking but don't worry that will go away after you hit Enter which is the next step. Then I was able to go to the Paint room and paint on my frog with no problem.

That looks pretty good. I tested it and it worked okay here too. Seems like it does the same thing as merging the object while in Surface mode, but this way the subdivision control actually worked for me. I was able to go to 15m polys without it crashing. Still not enough for really hi-res, but it's in there anyway Once the resampling is functional then it would be easier to raise the res at that time.

Anyway, thanks for the help testing it and figuring this out.

b

[michalis]

Lot of system crashes under OSX 10.6.8 (2x nehalem xeon nvidia gpu).

I can reproduce it. Just merge the "creature mesh" and ask for surface mode. Boom is possible even with this.

If no crash, try to paint, crash. Change to the default shader, seems I found the problem, eh... after a few strokes, crash again. System crashing.

I can't use this build, it's obvious.

It seems that this creature is the problem, I can't understand why.

Now, I merged a cube, default shader. Everything seems to work. Weird.

Under paint room, OK I can paint. But from the front,top or bottom views only. Turn to the side view (left or right). I have another problem here. Painting isn't refreshing. I have to first stroke and then turn view a bit to see results. I can't paint like this of course.

The issue with the blurred texture results is obvious. To go for resolutions >10M is ridiculous.

This is a bug or a limitation of 3dc. It doesn't happen under zbrush for instance. A 2-4M is OK targeting a 2K texture. ~10-20 M for a 4k. A slight blurred effect may happen in zbrush (for instance, trying to drop a texture to polypaint -polypaint from texture). But much sharper than 3dc results.

On the contrary, trying to bake a custom textured shader in 3dc after retopo-UVs gives excellent results. This doesn't make much sense to me.

I hope these comments are helpful.

Waiting for a next Mac build.

[moska]

So, I tried the OSX build. I merged the "creature" I jumped in paint mode, I tried to paint and OSX was dead. Just like this. No force quit or anything. Just a hard reboot. (in safe mode)

Can you please check this? Before we start arguing with Andrew or anybody else about my cynical way of speaking.

Under 10.6.8, nvidia graphics.

would you please explain me how to use safe mode

i usually swtch off and on again

[michalis]

@ moska, Keep pressing shift as you reboot. (shift for safe mode). Leave it this way for a few mins and restart normally.

[moska]

dont understand?

1-its frozen

2-i switch off button while pressing shift?

is that it?

3-switch on normally?

[michalis]

Switch off.

Switch on holding shift down until you see a bar loading. This is the safe mode. Release shift.

After a min or so, osx cleans lot of logs and cashes automatically, restart then normally.

[moska]

thats what i needed, thanks

[SERGYI]


Lot of system crashes under OSX 10.6.8.






Hello, michalis!


1. About “creature” mesh. Please send couple of system generated crash reports which were caused by different operations. For example crash on “Surface mode”, then crash report for drawing, etc (to understand is 3D-Coat crashing in the same place or not when executing different tasks). There are no problems like those on my iMac (10.6.8, ATI Radeon HD 4670) and Mac Pro (10.5.2, NVIDIA GeForce 8800GT). Does anyone else have problems with that “creature” mesh? By the way, michalis, what is your system language (just to check one theory)?


2. Cube and problems with refreshing. You are right. That problem is reproducable on any platform. Thanks!


P.S. And again about “creature” mesh. Is this the only model which causes such problems?

[moska]

i come here every day to grasp what i can and try understand more. but i rarelly post.

so i came here cause im addicted by the program.

its simpler and better than the others,but its lot more undocumented,caotic to understand.also its darker,as some parts are broken ?so its beta and depends on the Vision of his creator Andrew Spaghin.

to me as an artist(?) i need the few,the simple tools cause they are the better tools.

i dont need fancy expensive paper and a large box of exquisit(!)brushes.

that doesnt come with inspiration and mastery on it.

i just need something i can grab in my hand and can work with,cause thats already much better than this handicap felling one must have if painting holding the brush with the toes or mouth.

so mostly i like the voxels and

i dont make use of surfaces often and i didnt care about live clay yet.maybe im not sure what is it for.you must point the advantages.thats why i discoverd 3dcoat.

so the voxel menu has wonderfull tools to build things,and these worflows are what the other programs are grabing here.

so i mainly agree with Abn about these new features thing versus strenghtning the program.

and agree with Michalis because also he prefers voxels for his work.

and i came here as i said ,every day ,to be up to date,check new builds ,learn things

thank you all wonderfull coaters

[moska]

@sergy

i have this file created on 3.5.xxxx

wich frozens with 3.7

but how to upload?

[michalis]

@SERGYI

1. My system uses english (the default) language.

2. You're probably right, this creature mesh is problematic in a way I can't understand. This crashes the surface mode most of the time. It's happening on the last two builds.

Glad we found a bug though. Great (the side views painting). It's also related on the size of the brush.

A question, you run this 64 bit build under OSX 10.5.x?