Andrew Shpagin

Brushing improvements

78 posts in this topic

Please post there your feedback regarding recent brushing system update. I think we may polish it together very well.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems Absolute brush does not like to cross previous strokes that were drawn using RemoveStretching.

post-1195-0-18080600-1336496119_thumb.jp

Edit:Could you make it that CreaseClay slider is in reality 0to300%while still displaying 0to100%.

Also Invert tool action checkbox is very needed there,Creaseclay in additive mode is very powerful but

holding Ctrl for long time is bad for comfort and precision of strokes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey Andrew, I've recorded a few strokes to show the brush behaviour. GL is awesome! DX is still bumpy, especially on slow strokes, interpolate doesn't help in this case. Small brush sizes produce more bumps than big sizes (at least it feels like). Drawing with constant depth and radius produces no bumps. Pen pressure in Prefs is set to 1023, brush sensitivity is 1. Wacom Prefs pressure compatibility is checked.

In the 2nd part of the video watch the inflate clay brush in the new version, it's not working like it was before, please fix it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey Andrew, I've recorded a few strokes to show the brush behaviour. GL is awesome! DX is still bumpy, especially on slow strokes, interpolate doesn't help in this case. Small brush sizes produce more bumps than big sizes (at least it feels like). Drawing with constant depth and radius produces no bumps. Pen pressure in Prefs is set to 1023, brush sensitivity is 1. Wacom Prefs pressure compatibility is checked.

In the 2nd part of the video watch the inflate clay brush in the new version, it's not working like it was before, please fix it.

InflateClay is still there but you have to dial the depth higher that 100% for it to stamp the alpha in one click or pen press. I think there will be some adjustments to the percentage gauge as Andrew polishes the brushes..

I tested and was setting mine at 300% to 1000% for testing purposes and it was stamping them like in the other versions...

300% now is like 100% use to be for the LC InflateClay brush

I also love the stamping part of inflateClay as you can stamp all kinds of detail on your models....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok Andrew, I will test over the next fews days as I get time and a big thank you again!

I will post this one video as it concerns the Draw brush in surface mode and goes with the video post above this one. This brush is not a

refection of the other brushes but the one that seems to have problems still...

I get great looking smooth slow strokes using LC with my own created brushes and alphas with the new update of today...

Testing:

DX mode

Draw Brush in surface mode

First brush in the e-panel (radius and depth)

No spacing

No reduce stretching selected

No falloff

No focal shift

depth 50%

Radius 6.75

Default alpha (Top right, last one)

Sphere 500,000

Non-Cuda 32 bit

In the first part of the video, I make a slower stroke and you get the bumps, In the second part of the video I hold down the "W"

key (wireframe mode) while brushing a slow stroke and the resulting strokes are very smooth and clean.

Why wireframe would make a difference, I do not know...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPGWtyZJgvI&feature=youtu.be

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Voxel surface brushing GL is still much better than DX, but DX does seem a little less bumpy/blobbly now.

In DX if you turn on "use spacing" and set spacing to 5% it will yield a nice smooth stroke,

but this reveals some other issues

I've noticed that with a standard brush a stroke's cross section profile doesn't really match the brush's

cross section profile. This is true in both DX and GL, but this mismatch is much more pronounced in DX.

Liveclay results in a better match, but in DX it just isn't as good match.

To me this feels like it might be a surface normal problem.

To do it's thing I assume a brush must gather info about the surface it's going over.

If DX sends, what ends up being (for whatever reason) incorrect normal or averaged normal data,

occasional big errors in that data could easily account for a "bump" in that stroke.

The use of a smaller spacing might provide more samples and eliminate those big errors which makes for a smoother

stroke, but if the normal is still incorrect that might cause a constant virtual tilt to the brush which could possibly

account for the profile mismatch.

Of course this is all just supposition on my part, with no real knowledge of what's actually going on,

so I wouldn't be surprise if it was completely and totally wrong :)

What really interests me though is it seems like Andrew doesn't experience this on his test machines.

And I'm very curious about what could be different between those and the systems that do get problems with DX.

I get the problem with both these configurations

XP sp3 32-bit, intel chipset & cpu, GeForce 7900 GS driver 191.07, with an Intuos 2

DirectX 9.0c (4.09.0000.0904)

and

Win7 64-bit, intel chipset & cpu, GeForce 280M driver 258.96 notebook, with an Intuos 4 wireless

Direct 11 built in (it's what comes up if you run dxdiag), but like everyone with

win7 or vista has to do, I added DirectX 9 per the 3DC install instructions.

I used directx_mar2009_redist.exe (downloaded from Microsoft)

Those are two very different systems, but for me the problem is identical on both machines,

and 100 percent repeatable, so I really wonder what the common difference is. :)

Hmm, wait a minute, just a crazy thought; maybe Andrew has AMD based computers?

-Jeff

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

digman, human0id, run - does the same happen in paint room?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, what settings are in Preferences->Brush pressure levels number ?

Check if all jitters in brrush option are zero.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, this is very weird

I get blobs in the DX paintroom, see attached image.

But only after brushing in voxel surface mode.

If I go directly to the paintroom the paint lines are perfectly smooth,

like the GL example.

EDIT

In preferences:

Brush pressure levels 1023

Brush sensitivity 1

In Brush options:

zero pressure radius 0.15

Depth Modulator 1

All other options are 0 or off

Pressure sensitive options are

set to mouse not pen

MORE EDIT (again)

OK for moment there I thought had a fix, but sadly it doesn't seem to last

It's weird but it worked great for me for awhile (on 32-bit)

In the brush options panel switch all the pressure sensitivity icons

to "pen", (I did this in the paintroom, but I don't if that's important)

And WHAM, that was it!

Everything's was fixed and brushing worked perfectly in 3DC DX!!!

but when I tried the fix on the win7 machine it didn't work

Then I went back the 32-bit machine and tried brushing on a new layer

and no more perfect, and I haven't been able to get it back.

Bummer.

-Jeff

post-1222-0-57788000-1336560331_thumb.jp

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seems I found the reason. Funny, it happes if FPS is too high. GL a bit slower, so works well there :)

It is still theoretical (can't reproduce exactly), but I am 99% sure that's the reason.

You may check it if you turn off incremental render - fps will fall and strokes will be good.

I will update build today.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No bumps in Paintroom here (the little jittering in the video is only my hand :D ). With Interpolate on totally smooth.

http://youtu.be/COjCVpDrJMw

InflateClay is still there but you have to dial the depth higher that 100% for it to stamp the alpha in one click or pen press.

Thanks for the hint digman!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's awesome Andrew - that actually sounds right to me because using 3DCoat at home as always felt better to me (inferior PC compared to the one I use at work). If it is the solution then I'd like to thank you for taking the time to address this issue. As I'm sure you're aware, it's been problematic for a lot of users for a while so this is a huge boost to 3D Coat.

Is the next step to tune each brush and ensure that there are good default values/settings?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting that you mention the crease brush because that's always felt a little weak to me too - especially when compared to the competition. I'm not sure if it's just a case of tuning the settings but in my experience, it hasn't given me the results that I'd expect. Perhaps this is better now that Andrew has reworked the code - I'll have to test.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only brush that really needs work for me at the moment is creaseclay which needs an inbed like in zbrush.

It pinch a lot but don't really carve into the surface, making very light creases (i need to push the depth to around 800 to get sensible results).

In fact I would go as far as say Andrew got most of the brush right but the performance was so bad (compared to what it is now) that we couldn't see it.

I agree. CreaseClay is a little too weak at the moment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seems I found the reason. Funny, it happes if FPS is too high. GL a bit slower, so works well there :)

It is stii theoretical (can't reproduce exactly), but I am 99% sure it is reason.

You may check it if you will turn off incremental render - fps will fall and strokes will be good.

I will update build today.

I do think you found the reason...

I checked my FPS just now when I brushed a stroke and my FPS went from 95 to 370 (DX mode)

Your FPS goes up (140) but not as high 370 when brushing in wireframe mode so it produces even brush strokes (as shown in the video) in DX mode.

Jitter is unchecked on all my test. I double check my testing parameters and should be as stated in my postings

Tablet setting 1023 on all test, intuos3

I will wait for new build before further testing on the draw brush...

First impression of Voxel grow brush

Voxel grow brush improved, more control at lower extrude settings. Creates more even strokes at lower extrude settings plus smoother in strokes even on lower voxel resolution. I been using surface mode so long now that my opinion on the voxel grow brush might not be as good as someone who uses it all the time...

Smooth brush seems to work better too.

I will have to use the voxel grow brush more to offer a polishing suggestion...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You may check it if you will turn off incremental render - fps will fall and strokes will be good.

Ah, that works great!

You just have to make sure the object is dense enough so the fps drop far enough.

I'm really looking forward to the new build!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice comparison BeatKitano - I think such things really help. I guess the idea isn't necessarily just to emulate the other packages, but perhaps to try and improve on them too.

You end up with a really nice clean line in the 3D Coat example but the thing I find most striking is that the initial brush stroke looks better in the ZBrush picture - did you use the same sort of brush for each of those initial strokes? The ZBrush one looks much better for organic style creases/wrinkles as it doesn't look like a 'rut' that has scraped through the mesh - it just has a better shape to it IMHO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Updated build in main thread.

Changes:

- dotting in DX version fixed (I hope)

- Invert tool action for appropriate tools

- stronger Crease clay

- fixed couple of bugs related to brushing over transformed volumes

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

- dotting in DX version fixed (I hope)

Confirmed, smooth as silk :)

edit: works best with this alpha (all to the right)

rightalpha.jpg

ps: but crease clay behaves a bit weird. I make a video soon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have done my fair share of moaning about the brushes on this very forum but today I take my hat off to you Andrew - you've made some truly astounding leaps over the past week.

I feel that the updated brushes will do wonders for 3D Coat. I believe all of my colleagues will view it differently now that it's on a par with the competition in terms of sculpting performance. It feels silky smooth and more importantly, predictable. There are no longer any unexpected lumps and bumps that need to be corrected. I'm honestly blown away by the improvement and think it's the best update to this software for a long time!

After testing for a while, I still feel that some default values need to be tweaked but the important thing now is that there's a really solid foundation on which to build. It's no longer a case of changing values to try and avoid inherent problems, but instead changing them for pure artistry.

Well done Andrew, I think you've just given 3D Coat a massive boost in the right direction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, the Crease Clay Brush needs just some manual tweaking to work fine. When used with a bigger radius (5 and up) it mess up the mesh quite a bit, mainly if you make very slow strokes. It may works better on dense meshes, I've tested it on a 1mio polys sphere. Anyway, fast strokes a pretty nice.

Andrew may I ask you to put the Inflate Clay Brush on your to do list. It doesn't have to be on top, maybe somewhere in between :D

In my video I showed you the example (post #3), the Inflate Clay doesn't grow anymore. Digman pointed out that stamping is still possible with higher depth values, but I liked the way it grows in earlier versions. Just press down your pen and let it grow. When you are using the brush without falloff, you don't get a sphere shape anymore, it's more like an egg or elliptic sphere. :o

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yup, DX brushing is now working great on both my systems too.

It's kind of amazing how well it works my old machine. Big thanks Andrew.

One minor thing I've noticed is that whenever I start 3DC pressure sensitivity

for pen radius is always toggled off.

-Jeff

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

3.7.11B: Strokes in DX version still dotty, when painting fast. In GL version perfect!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I deleted my other post for now, what I was talking about can wait, polishing the new current brush routine is more important...

Confirmed: dotting effect on slow strokes no a problem in DX mode.

Well done Andrew...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites