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Low-Poly (from scratch) Workflow w/ Retopo Toolset!


astraldata
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I absolutely LOVE 3dcoat and would like to do ALL of my character, organic, and very basic hard-surface modeling in it. The one MAJOR thing preventing me from doing this easily is the fact that I must ALWAYS start with either A) a voxel object, or B) an imported mesh -- and this is such a hassle!

 

I would like to start 3dcoat with some form of a low-poly model (such as a plane, triangle, sphere, cylinder or cube) to start with that I can go immediately to the Retopo room's toolset with and shape it up manually by adding/removing quads, edges/loops and extruding/scaling faces. I wouldn't need anything fancy, as there are better tools for heavy-parametric-low-poly workflow needs, but all I'm asking for are the essentials to get started and shape up some organic (and sometimes slightly inorganic!) forms with the brush and quad tools for example!

 

To me, the essentials would be the following:

 

  • have the option to start out with a triangle/plane/cube/sphere/cylinder to begin modeling with (or of course, importing if you need something more complex)
  • face/edge selection/extrusion/scaling on the x,y,z
  • all the current geometry-manipulation tools provided in the Retopo Room such as adding edge-loops, quads, etc., using curves, planes, etc.

 

That's pretty much it.

 

 

For now, I'd settle with simply starting out with a triangle/plane/cube/etc. that I'm not forced to have to import or convert back and forth between voxels, etc., that I could simply massage into nice low-poly shapes from the outset without having to worry about doing retopo on very simple models since I could do them much faster with the amazing Retopo toolset -- and I could even UV Map and Paint them -- all in 3dcoat!

 

From the moment I saw 3dcoat's retopo and painting tools, I had hoped it would offer the awesome Retopo Toolset for simple low-poly workflows like mine too... but alas... I am still left waiting... possibly forever. :(

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Seems to me you can do exactly as you wish by working strictly in the retopo room and starting with a retopo model. If the retopo model tab is not visible when in the retopo room, just go to: windows>popups>retopo models. You can make a directory of your own models there or start off with the default primitives.

 

Hope this helps.

 

BK

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One thing you have to realise is that 3dc is not a traditional low poly modelling application, the retopo room might offer some similar functionality to other modelling software's, but you'll soon find that it's far from ideal. You'll end up spending 10 minutes + performing actions that would otherwise take seconds in a traditional modelling package, simply because the retopo room's main strength is modelling over the top a sculpt, rather than free-form poly modelling. I think one of the devs is looking to improve the low poly modelling system in 3dc, but at the moment it is a thousand miles away from what other packages can do. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's just the way 3dc works at the moment.

 

Just as one example, you can't simply select and move verts/edges/faces like in other programs. you have to switch to the select tool, make sure you're on a suitable brush stroke mode, make your selection, and then switch to the transform tool. And once you're in the transform tool, your selection is locked, you can't then select or deselect other verts/edges/faces without first dropping out of the transform tool, and going back to the select tool. This alone makes it a nightmare task in relation to traditional modelling.

 

The confusing bit here, is you say you want to go this route for the freedom of doing organic and in-organic shapes, but I can't think of a better example of this than modelling with voxels. Doing an auto-retopo literally takes a few seconds.

 

If you want to do traditional modelling, I highly recommend grabbing a copy of blender, or even Silo 3d (pretty buggy apparently), or if you can afford it, the likes of Max or Maya. These are much better suited to what you're trying to do, and you can always drop the result into 3dc afterwards.

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One thing you have to realise is that 3dc is not a traditional low poly modelling application, the retopo room might offer some similar functionality to other modelling software's, but you'll soon find that it's far from ideal. You'll end up spending 10 minutes + performing actions that would otherwise take seconds in a traditional modelling package, simply because the retopo room's main strength is modelling over the top a sculpt, rather than free-form poly modelling. I think one of the devs is looking to improve the low poly modelling system in 3dc, but at the moment it is a thousand miles away from what other packages can do. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's just the way 3dc works at the moment.

 

Just as one example, you can't simply select and move verts/edges/faces like in other programs. you have to switch to the select tool, make sure you're on a suitable brush stroke mode, make your selection, and then switch to the transform tool. And once you're in the transform tool, your selection is locked, you can't then select or deselect other verts/edges/faces without first dropping out of the transform tool, and going back to the select tool. This alone makes it a nightmare task in relation to traditional modelling.

 

The confusing bit here, is you say you want to go this route for the freedom of doing organic and in-organic shapes, but I can't think of a better example of this than modelling with voxels. Doing an auto-retopo literally takes a few seconds.

 

If you want to do traditional modelling, I highly recommend grabbing a copy of blender, or even Silo 3d (pretty buggy apparently), or if you can afford it, the likes of Max or Maya. These are much better suited to what you're trying to do, and you can always drop the result into 3dc afterwards.

This is true in a sense, but it's not a nightmare by any stretch. Reason being that in most modeling apps they don't have a Transform Gizmo that is as versatile as the one in 3D Coat. So, sure you might have to drop the tool temporarily to change your selection, but simply hitting the ESC key will deactivate it, while leaving the selection intact. You can change the selection as you need > hit your Transform tool hotkey again and continue. Unlike most modeling apps, with the Transform Gizmo in the Retopo Room, you don't need to hit different hotkeys to switch between different transform operations (SCALE, MOVE, ROTATE). It's all built in. And you can use numeric inputs on any given widget (LMB click+hold +SPACE bar). You also have color coded widgets so it's easy to see exactly what axis you need to make a specific transform along, if you use the Tool Options panel parameters.

 

So, whatever extra click you might have to make in 3D Coat, you hit a lot less in the long run, since you don't have to keep hitting separate hotkeys to change transform modes. I was the one who pushed for the Transform tool in the Retopo Room, and all it's associated features...and talked to Andrew about trying to add more polymodeling tools, seeing that 3D Coat already had about 80-90% of the tools to do it. I showed him a video of ZBrush's new polymodeling tools and I think that compelled him to head in this direction.

 

It took a while to get it, but we now finally have built-in EXTRUDE functionality in the Transform Tool. Hit the ENTER key anytime you want to extrude a new set of edges/polygons...much like the way 3ds Max works with SHIFT key extrusion. Except, in 3D Coat you can do this with Faces as well. The FREE EXTRUDE tool now works with open EDGES, rather than just FACES. You can also set the Transform gizmo to automatically orient itself along the average normals of a selection. He's recently added a SHELL modifier and some other extrusion tools, but the Transform tool itself is not a cumbersome thing. It's very versatile. The next few things Andrew said he plans to add is Gradient Selection and Parametric Primitives. At that point, the Retopo tab will probably be renamed to something like Mesh Tools, so all users know it is no longer for just retopology.

 

It's my hope that, in the process, he will unify the mesh structures of the Paint and Retopo workspace...so that they are no longer separate entities. This means whatever mesh you have in the Paint Workspace, you can step into the "Mesh Tools" (current Retopo) workspace to perform modeling edits or to even subdivide...entire meshes or just the selected faces. No more having to import/export then export/import just to modify a given mesh. It would also streamline the UV workflow as there would no longer be any UV tools in the Mesh Tools workspace. All UV tasks would occur strictly in the UV room.

 

If Andrew would add the Surface Mode brushes as a subsection of the Mesh Tools room, then he could completely remove the Tweak room. Now, the whole app suddenly makes more sense and is much cleaner for it.

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I hear what you're saying AbnRanger, but in practise it's just not ideal when compared to how traditional modelling packages handle it. You mention extra versatility with the move tool being able to move/scale/rotate but that's not an argument for having it as a separate tool entirely. I think Silo has the multi-transform tool that works this way, but either way the theory is easy enough, imagine it like you just make a selection in either verts/edges/faces mode and it automatically positions the transform gizmo to the centre of your selection. If you change your selection, the transform gizmo updates accordingly. This would save so much time in the retopo room. What I do find interesting is in the retopo room if you make a selection and switch to the transform tool, it still displays as having the select tool highlighted, and not the transform. Like the software itself is hinting at a better way to handle this.

 

The main area that this becomes evident is when you're doing manual retopo and you need to get away from the "auto snap" features to start tweaking verts/edges/faces away from the surface, especially if you're trying to pull/push a curved area out a bit, normally you'd just be able to grab a row of edges, move them all slightly, deselect one, continue moving, deselect another, continue moving.. repeat until all the edges are where you need them to be. Doing that one by one and having to switch between two tools + dropping your selection each time is exactly what I would call a nightmare.

 

For video demonstration purposes it works, it's functional, I can't argue with that. Everything I would want to do with it, you could show me an example of it doing it. But for actual day to day production and busy work, the general selection and movement of poly's in the retopo room is leagues behind the rest. I always got the feeling that it was different for the sake of being different, but I only like different if it speeds up the standard workflow, it makes no sense to slow down an existing standard in the industry.

 

I do probably 80%+ of my vert adjustments with the points/faces tool, as this has the sort of functionality you'd expect with a move tool selected and it's also the tool I use for 99% of my retopos. See a vert... move it, continue on as usual. no interruption, no tool switching. But there are obviously numerous scenarios where moving verts one by is silly. What would be insanely awesome, is that same free feeling, but with some sort of combined selection and movement tool.

Edited by Gary Dave
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I hear what you're saying AbnRanger, but in practise it's just not ideal when compared to how traditional modelling packages handle it. You mention extra versatility with the move tool being able to move/scale/rotate but that's not an argument for having it as a separate tool entirely. I think Silo has the multi-transform tool that works this way, but either way the theory is easy enough, imagine it like you just make a selection in either verts/edges/faces mode and it automatically positions the transform gizmo to the centre of your selection. If you change your selection, the transform gizmo updates accordingly. This would save so much time in the retopo room. What I do find interesting is in the retopo room if you make a selection and switch to the transform tool, it still displays as having the select tool highlighted, and not the transform. Like the software itself is hinting at a better way to handle this.

 

The main area that this becomes evident is when you're doing manual retopo and you need to get away from the "auto snap" features to start tweaking verts/edges/faces away from the surface, especially if you're trying to pull/push a curved area out a bit, normally you'd just be able to grab a row of edges, move them all slightly, deselect one, continue moving, deselect another, continue moving.. repeat until all the edges are where you need them to be. Doing that one by one and having to switch between two tools + dropping your selection each time is exactly what I would call a nightmare.

 

For video demonstration purposes it works, it's functional, I can't argue with that. Everything I would want to do with it, you could show me an example of it doing it. But for actual day to day production and busy work, the general selection and movement of poly's in the retopo room is leagues behind the rest. I always got the feeling that it was different for the sake of being different, but I only like different if it speeds up the standard workflow, it makes no sense to slow down an existing standard in the industry.

 

I do probably 80%+ of my vert adjustments with the points/faces tool, as this has the sort of functionality you'd expect with a move tool selected and it's also the tool I use for 99% of my retopos. See a vert... move it, continue on as usual. no interruption, no tool switching. But there are obviously numerous scenarios where moving verts one by is silly. What would be insanely awesome, is that same free feeling, but with some sort of combined selection and movement tool.

I'm not saying 3D Coat is a replacement for one's main 3D app, in terms of modeling, but if you want to stay in 3D Coat, it is fairly decent, considering it was never intended to be a poly-modeling toolset. If I need to do some Polymodeling, I always use 3ds Max and see it and 3D Coat as extensions of each other. It's super easy to send a mesh to Max > make the edits needed > use the Applink to send it right back to the same workspace in 3D Coat with just a click or two.

 

Still, there are times where the tools in the Retopo room are more than adequate for the job...such as adding a Mouth cavity if I wanted....or use the Retopo tools to model some hard surface stuff that would be harder to do with voxels.

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Absolutely, I'm not demanding that the move/select be re-done (at-least any time soon!), 3dc is great at what it does and I agree that it's often unfair to compare to other packages with completely different goals. There's also the "you can't please everyone" argument, which I respect. Just ranting really, as it's one of those little things you forget about until you find yourself having to do it again.

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I personally think that combining the points and faces and the transform tool into a single tool with a sort of 'soft' selection mode (potentially through alpha masks and/or falloff settings) would allow for both exact selections and organic brush like operations, allowing for an extrude + scale operation being applied over multiple points/faces simultaneously. This would aid volume tweaking and simplify precise tweaks and modeling operations all in a single tool. I'm sure we have tools that come close, but none quite as low-poly and modeling-oriented.

Just to be clear though, being able to also create points and faces out of thin air and not being forced to have them based on existing geometry would go miles for me. If instead we could base the topology strokes, for example, on an invisible plane or axis (or maybe even a reference image plane?), this could speed up creating low poly geometry for characters as the scaffolding would be there already due to the strokes tool creating the necessary geometry in 2d space, then using the quads tool or even the strokes tool as a *bridge* between the 2d verts/points to create the faces across three dimensions based on the locations of the selected verts (something akin to the quad tool would be ideal, but possibly using strokes instead). I hope what I'm saying is making sense.

All in all, 3d coat definitely needs some simple tools to easily create geometry from scratch (without relying on existing/imported models) and to be able to select/edit/extrude/scale and even draw that geometry -- especially in the retopo room. (As an aside, Mesh tools / room is a great name for the room, because retopo is very misleading and confusing!)

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Sorry for the double post, but I can't edit my last post for some reason...

 

I just wanted to add:

 

 
As a huge fan of this application, I never want to leave 3d Coat for simple character, vehicle, or armor modeling, whether high-poly or low-poly! Unless I'm doing intense architectural stuff, 3d Coat should cover it all, since it's already 80% there! I'm seeing this program as the (original) Photoshop of 3d Modeling, but even Photoshop has a 1 pixel paint tool called the pencil tool -- and it's there for those rare occasions when you DON'T need every other awesome thing it offers -- and the kitchen sink too. 3d Coat should offer the equivalent in poly modeling tools -- especially if it can make them better! 
 
Consider what adding softness and anti-aliasing did to the pencil tool -- now just consider what adding the 3d  equivalent could do for low poly modeling!
 
(A side note: mesh tools / room is a great name for the proposed room, because retopo is very misleading and confusing!)
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You can 'blur' a voxel jaggedness by switching to Surface mode. To visualize, imagine a collection of little boxes (that are similar in appearance to pixels but really don't correspond). You can make them smaller (at some cost in RAM and computation) but I don't think you can smooth them because they are 'solid' but you can switch to Surface and voila!, your edges are smooth.

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That's interesting, but I was referring more to selecting+grabbing multiple faces/points/edges with a sort of falloff/tolerance, kinda like you would weight paint, but also be able to scale the falloff to single edge/face/point selection, while being not only able to move, but scale and rotate the grabbed stuff too -- and most importantly, this would work in the retopo room to allow low poly 'sculpting' with a single tool as well as allowing one to select as well with the tool, working on one face/edge/point at a time or an average of many, based on the falloff or alpha mask.

 

Is this any clearer? That was, I guess, what I was hinting at with the equivalent of the anti alias brush in Photoshop, speaking more to the principal of innovating the fundamentals (the single pixel pencil into the single pixel brush into e.g. the vector pen in Manga Studio 5, and so on) rather than offering the 3d equivalent of anti-aliasing. I was referring to innovating the select + move/scale/rotate/extrude functionality of typical modeling programs into one made for low-poly sculpting.

 

Voxels and retopo are great, but sometimes it's just faster to box-model -- except it isn't actually fast in most 3d programs, nor is it a lot of fun for an artist who wants to just play with form. Sculpting is best for that, but combining the simplicity of low poly modeling and the freedom of sculpting is an ideal solution to my workflow issues, as I'm not creatively inclined to enjoy selecting, moving, reselection of nearby points moving them less and scamming them too, and so on just to create a little falloff curve on my low poly models, for example. A tool like what I mentioned above would be perfect, alongside proper simple modeling tools for organic character modeling as well as other simple mostly-organic low poly assets like rocks or cars or whatever. Other modeling tools based around low poly modeling simply don't have this, or it's just not as cool as 3d Coat for everything else. As stated before, it'd be my dream to be able to stay in 3d Coat for all but the most specialized modeling requirements, like complex array operations and other such architectural stuff and actual animation, which are more suited to parametric modeling and specialized workflows that are almost independent of model creation. For everything else -- there is 3d Coat.

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Sorry for my confusion. I always associate "modeling" with the Sculpt room and "faces/points/edges" with Retopo. Simple polygon modeling tools are in the pipeline I believe. There are some simple modelers that folks here use to create primitives to modify in the Sculpt room.

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