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autoload presets?


3dioot
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:blink:

Ok then...

Im not even going to get sad anymore. Ill just go back to using my other soft..

3dioot

PS

"At some point i simply though of severing all links to 3dcoat as I only felt anger while fighting with the app."

I allready did that a long time ago. I just thought it would do no harm to try again after a long time. I was obviously wrong.

PS2

I do appreciate you explaining how things work. Thank you. This stops me wasting my time.

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I believe stability trumps features. I am always pleased to see a new feature (but it may be awhile before I get around to using it), but this pleasure must be greater (and last longer) than the frustration of attempting something and failing because reasonable expectations were not met. I do think AbnRanger's desire for more CUDA development is a good idea as it would mitigate much of the frustration associated with a slow process punctuated with failure.

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At this point and since the bunny is out of the hat (for me anyway), I'll just say that while I agree with AbnRanger on the cuda update I honestly fear it.

I've learned too many things on some of the inner working of 3dcoat that I believe that some part of the program were so rushed that changing the core of the gpu acceleration will only make the bugs and stability issues worse.

I'm confidently thinking that Andrew knows it and simply don't want to do it cause it would mean rewritting A LOT of the application, and by rewritting I don't mean adjusting the code to the changes, but rewritting from scratch entire part of the application to be usable without terrible patchcrafting (which is the reason there's so much feature breaking while introducting others).

Now I'm expecting to get banned for what I just said.

That'll certainly annoy me but I expect changes in the comming months, and not necessarily from pilgway (even if I still hopes so Andrew will make the right choices for the future and those changes won't be necessary).

I'll be watching this thread to see how things happen, at least while I still can.

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@Beatkitano

Those are very wise words.

I did not want to say it a few lines up when it talked about voxels vs liveclay but what you said was what I was thinking.

I think voxel sculpting is half arsed. I think the cuda implementation is half arsed. I dont think it can be "really" fixed. Its just so dependant on hardware and drivers and (probably) continuous updates and refinements. I just dont see it happen.

This is one of the big reasons why i think liveclay is the way forward. No cuda. Coding from "scratch" (at least i hope so). You can allready see this in certain tools. The liveclay flatten (while lacking some options) is allready behaving very different (much better) then surfacetools flatten and chissel. I welcome this. I hope liveclay is a rewrite from scratch with only the clear endgoal in mind. Since its less hardware dependant its also "easier" on those requirements (both hw and driver).

I feel you brother. I really do. You are not alone.

I dont expect you to get banned or censored. That would be incredibly stupid and ignorant to do.

3dioot

PS

edit for clarity

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At this point and since the bunny is out of the hat (for me anyway), I'll just say that while Iagree with AbnRanger on the cuda update I honestly fear it.

I've learned too many things on some of the inner working of 3dcoat to believe that some part of the program were so rushed that changing the core of the gpu acceleration will only make the bugs and stability issues worse.

I'm confidently thinking that Andrew knows it and simply don't want to do it cause it would mean rewritting A LOT of the application, and by rewritting I don't mean adjusting the code to the changes, but rewritting from scratch entire part of the application to be usable without terrible patchcrafting (which is the reason there's so much feature breaking while introducting others).

Now I'm expecting to get banned for what I just said.

That'll certainly annoy me but I expect changes in the comming months, and not necessarily from pilgway (even if I still hopes so Andrew will make the right choices for the future and those changes won't be necessary).

I'll be watching this thread to see how things happen, at least while I still can.

First off, regarding all the frustration over Presets here. I understand as much as anyone here, how it feels to seemingly fight with the application all the time. However, 2 things we should keep in mind...with all the goodies that we frequently get our hands on...there is a cost involved. That cost is frustration associated with USING BETA SOFTWARE. You'd be utterly raw dealing with Beta versions of ANY software. In 3ds Max, there have been KNOWN bugs in CAT (Character Animation Toolkit...formerly a $1k plugin), that STILL haven't been fixed since it was added in Max 3yrs ago! And they have big $$$ to work with.

If Pixologic let everyone Alpha/Beta test every new (or stolen) feature they were developing, you'd hear plenty of stink on their forums as well.

Secondly, there are periods where the bugs die down enough to where my temper and frustrations subside. That's why I'm back on the forums after a little hiatus. The take away here is that if you take the time to screen record the problems you are having, Andrew will generally acknowledge that extra effort and give that support request priority. When I just e-mail with a "This is broke and I'm getting sick of this"...I generally don't get an answer/solution. I even do this with feature requests, and it helps get the point across more than huffing and puffing.

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@Beatkitano

Those are very wise words.

I did not want to say it a few lines up when it talked about voxels vs liveclay but what you said was what I was thinking.

I think voxel sculpting is half arsed. I think the cuda implementation is half arsed. I dont think it can be "really" fixed. Its just so dependant on hardware and drivers and (probably) continuous updates and refinements. I just dont see it happen.

This is one of the big reasons why i think liveclay is the way forward. No cuda. Coding from "scratch" (at least i hope so). You can allready see this in certain tools. The liveclay flatten (while lacking some options) is allready behaving very different (much better) then surfacetools flatten and chissel. I welcome this. I hope liveclay is a rewrite from scratch with only the clear endgoal in mind. Since its less hardware dependant its also "easier" on those requirements (both hw and driver).

I feel you brother. I really do. You are not alone.

I dont expect you to get banned or censored. That would be incredibly stupid and ignorant to do.

3dioot

PS

edit for clarity

You are mad about presets and that means Voxel Sculpting is half-baked? First of all...let's get some perspective here. 3D Coat is a 3D Texture Painting application...that alsp happens to offer sculpting and Retopo tools, so that you have much of the capability of ZBrush and Mudbox....which are just the opposite. They are SCULPTING applications that offer some painting tools. Andrew tries very hard to please, but he is stretched thin.

Yet you want to storm into his own house (this forum) and urinate on his shoes in front of his friends & family, as it were, by openly bad-mouthing his work....for what is effectively still in an Alpha stage? How many screen recordings have you sent Andrew? If you want solutions to your problems, you won't get it by spitting on the man's work here, in public. I have a library of dozens and dozens of video recordings of bugs and feature requests. Andrew has addressed practically all of them.

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I don't even know where to begin AbnRanger. I've plenty of respect for you (I admire your devotion to 3dcoat with all the video tutorial/feature presentations you do for the software even after hammering for so long about bugs and feature requests, I really do.).

But I think you don't have all the keys (and now I sound arrogant but I'll go with it): there's tons (a vague term but quite litteraly understated in fact) of bugs introduced as a byproduct of "speedcoding".

Things that could have been fixed a few years back without breaking a sweat, that now are the bases of more advanced features in the code.

I know it's a beta software (I actually work with a lot of beta software at work, and I know what's it's like to have an hammer over your head waiting to fall because there's bugs in a software), but the thing is Andrew apparently lost hope on fixing the foundations and keeps on adding bricks :/

That can't be right in the long run, and Imo it's already showing quite a bit. I can't recall a single version not crashing on me since 3.5 (even 3.7, a stable release can crash), and now we have bugs everywhere some are complete showstoppers other less important.

I'm not affraid because the beta software I use is buggy, that I can take, I'm openly negative because I fear there's no good coming even after a few bug fixing sessions if the software is not "sanitized" at some point.

And that won't happen until Andrew stops taking feature requests and start cleaning the code. That's why I think doing the turtle, going back into the shell for a <defined time> as autodesk is proceeding would be good idea. Andrew is capable of doing things right without doubt, but it will take time, and he has to be willing to take it.

I recall another software that took this road. I won't elaborate on what happened , needless to say some people lost something, and some other won a lot (that's not a threat btw)

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I think, at some point, there was an examination of 2 possible paths for 3D-Coat to follow:

1) Keep working to make 3D-Coat faster and more efficient by forcing it to conform to the nVidia GPU-based standards, or

2) Make 3D-Coat more accessible to more types of users by relaxing dependency on hardware (hence the inclusion of LiveClay).

I believe Andrew has chosen path No. 2. - while trying to maintain the work that was done in path 1.

The 2nd path is the same path Pixologic blazed from the very inception of Zbrush. Mr. Alon wisely foresaw a better reception of his software among a wider group of users - which would manifest itself in much stronger sales - perpetuating both a growing audience and a stronger development environment (because of the resultant profits).

Pixologic's is a good business model to follow for prolonged business success. Dependency on hardware standards which are not universally installed is a mistake.

Greg Smith

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@AbnRanger

No. Shitty presets do not mean voxel sculpting is bad. My experience with them has told me they are bad.

3D-Coat is not marketed as just a painting app. Look at the promo video's on the main page. Oops.

I should not have to beg Andrew to fix presets that were promised for V3 four years ago.

3dioot

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As for CUDA...the reason I continue to mention it is because the developers of Mudbox and Mari realize that CPU's just will not cut it for the level of work they do. Same goes for 3D Coat. CPU multi-threading is too restrictive and GPU's actually are designed for this very kind of work. That's why Mudbox chews right through millions of Polys like it was nothing. It wasn't always this way. Before the 2009 release they were largely CPU based and the performance was not any better than Voxel Sculpting is now.

In order to make that next step, 3D Coat is going to have to put the GPU to work. There are solutions to take all the hard work he did on CPU multi-threading, and re-assign it to the GPU. Open ACC take directives (hints) in the current code to assign threads to the GPU. This quote is from the NVidia CUDA Zone:

The CUDA Toolkit complements and fully supports programming with OpenACC directives.

http://developer.nvidia.com/cuda/openacc

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The main theme here is stability, bug fixes and getting all current features polished... I am in full agreement here as version 4 must be so.

I, several weeks past sent Andrew an e-mail stating my concerns for version 4 to be as stable and bug free as possible. I have done the most I can do and the rest is up to Andrew.

We control our wallets and Andrew controls his development... I want both to be happy... :D

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@AbnRanger No. Shitty presets do not mean voxel sculpting is bad. My experience with them has told me they are bad. 3D-Coat is not marketed as just a painting app. Look at the promo video's on the main page. Oops. I should not have to beg Andrew to fix presets that were promised for V3 four years ago. 3dioot
I never said it was JUST a Painting application. Nevertheless, it's origin was as a Painting application. It wasn't intended to compete with ZBrush or Mudbox. Just as Modo doesn't brandish it's sculpting tools as a "ZBrush-Killer." Nevertheless, Andrew has tried to please by complying with users requests for more and more sculpting capability....

So, while I would like to see it reach the point where it can compete with them on their level (trying to catch up with them using one primary coder against teams of coders), it is a bit unfair to place those kinds of expectations on one man. They were built on a framework designed specifically for Hi-Poly sculptiing. 3D Coat is trying to fit that capability into a framework designed for 3D Painting. No different than if Mari suddenly added sculpting. It would have it's own share of growing pains for years to come.

BTW, what do you mean beg Andrew? You mean you're too good to take a few minutes to record the problems you are having and upload the problem file to support (a feature within the application itself....just to make it easier for you)? Let everyone else here do all the work, while you stand here and complain? Do you think I enjoy doing so? Nobody asked you to beg.

Nevertheless, if you can't be bothered recording the problems you have and e-mailing it to support, then why waste further time and effort fussing about them here? The time you wasted complaining here could have gotten you a solution. Most of those issues would have been fixed by now.

I get just as frustrated sometimes myself, but that's usually because I forget that everything in between official releases is effectively ME AGREEING TO WORK WITH NEW AND THUS RELATIVELY UNTESTED FEATURES. That is the tradeoff...plain and simple.

When I paid for 3D Coat about 4+yrs ago...I got what I paid for. A replacement application for Deep Paint 3D. Everything else is gravy. Pretty much what Artman said. Yet, you are DEMANDING more than you are entitled to. When you buy an Autodesk product. You get what you pay for and NOTHING MORE. If you want more, you wait a year and then you pay more. Andrew has been giving, giving, giving, giving and giving some more for over 4yrs now...way beyond what he is required to, as a developer and company. He could have just sat on all the developments and simply announced a new release, as most software companies do. And to be quite frank, he should have charged for an upgrade at least once or twice now.

This is like people getting a free apple pie to go with their Burger combo, and then having the audacity to complain that they didn't get their money's worth because the pie is not quite warm enough.

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What do you mean beg Andrew? Nobody asked you to beg. You ARE using Beta features and complaining about helping to make it better. That comes with the territory. You get your hands on new features instead of having to wait in silence for one or more years...and in return, there is an implied responsibility to report the problems and help "polish" them. If you are too lazy to be bothered recording the problems you have, then why waste further time and effort fussing about them here. The time you wasted complaining in long posts here would have been better spent recording the problems you have and sending them to support. Most of those issues would have been fixed by now. Instead, you have chosen to do damage and insult rather than helping (the community) to find a solution.

Your keep implying there are only bugs with new features. You are also wilfully ignoring the fact that presets were promised a long time ago. You can keep twisting or ignoring the basic facts of this argument but its not going to lead anywhere.

My time would be best spend sculpting. Shock horror. :)

But lets ignore that fact. You keep implying (again) I have not contributed to this community. Not all of us have such a short term memory as you do Abnranger. That said ill give mantis a shot as I said a few posts up.

3dioot

PS

Keep editing your original replies some more..

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You had presets for quite some time. They just weren't as expansive as you were wanting. I have been asking for CUDA updates and expanded usage throughout the app for a long time too, but all I can do is either use something else or keep reminding/bugging Andrew, in hopes that he grows so tired of hearing it that he finally does something about it. That's how we got Multi-Threading (a few years ago) after all. :) In both cases, it requires a lot more work than most features in the application.

But using profanity to denigrate his work is stepping over the line, and is certainly not contributing to the community, here...if that's what you call contributing.

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Guys stop to be that much negative!.

At the very end, 3D Coat works properly even if it's not perfect (i don't know a perfect software and i can give you a big list), let just encourage Andrew.

I'm satisfied by 3D Coat even if there's some bugs or missing features, just because i feel confident to do almost all what i expect from it.

And if i can't do something i can manage to use something to complete the work and report the problem or the missing stuffs.

Let be fair with Andrew he's almost alone and he accomplished a lot of work.

Peace guys

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BeatKitano, we understand you, just be peaceful this is not real life after all.Be quiet we love you :)

And with that latest reply this thread has officially gone of the chart on weirdness. Good job. ;)

We will see what Raul does when he gets back. We either get a proper, fully featured, liveclay system or more toybrushes. I hope its the first.

3dioot

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I was joking. I thought the smiley would give that away.

But if you want to end it this way you are free to do so. ^_^

Its not unusual for feedback threads to end in mockery of the one giving feedback on the 3D-Coat forums. Why break with tradition now?

3dioot

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You right 3dioot , till is clear for everybody and without any irony.

i'm sorry but that thread didn't smelt good.I was just trying to calm the situation,so i'm sorry.

Take care.

Pixo

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@Pixo

Its cool no worries.

I got an answer to my original question and an interesting discussion afterwards so this thread is cool in my book.

Heated discussions can actually be beneficial. ;)

Ciao

3dioot

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Probably all misunderstood is that some reports was not heared by me. Probably source of problem is that I was fixing from mantis but have not payed much attantion to forum. For example Artman reported very many isssues and got all them fixed. Of course it will be more easy to manage all problems with mantis. I will pay more attention to Presets and fix all known issues asap, but it is easier if problems was summarized. I still can't reproduce lag issue, I tried to fix it in blind mode, you may try 64 CUDA build there - http://www.3d-coat.c...-17A-CUDA64.exe

If I hear report I am trying to fix it asap dropping away any features development. If I have not done it means

1) I have not heared enough or missed it among other requests

2) I can't reproduce or fix it

(2) happens not too often, mostly (1)

What I really don't understand - when someone bought software has he bought the right to tell with total disrespect? Why peoples allow such tone? I am human too, I am not coding robot. Why can't we solve problems in peaceful way? Very pity.

Also, regarding "promise" - I was not promising, I was just doing what I can, probably you "expected" or it was looking "promising".

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Hi,

Sorry if my post sounded aggressive to you, but I don't think I was disrespectful (or at the very least not insulting as some did here). I could have been really mean actually Andrew, and not just in words.

But since we understand each other and you're trying to do good, I suggest we forget what happened here and put the blame on a problem of communication.

I'll rebuild what I deleted previously (and put a mantis report linking to it). I just hope this time it will not stay idle while others add "+1" without any consequences. For both my mental health (I genuinely love your work, what you achieved is remarkable it's just that you need to slow down and use it imo) and for your business.

As for the promise: I didn't buy the product for the incoming features, if you look at your db you'll see that I actually bought 3dbrush (for 3d painting), and since you went great lenght to add awesome features such as freeform sculpting I just expect the software to work (not even asking more feature you see !).

Take care.

[Edit] I'm downloading this new build, when the link is working again (IP is a surprise)

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Actually I don't mean you. I have not heared disrespect in your complans. Anyway, thanks for understanding.

ps: And I agree with good advice - I need to sculpt something in 3DC at least for half of hour in day, something real, not just using tools in expected way as I do usually. Whan I was doing so there was a lot of cleanizing.

ps2: re-uploading, will be in 40-50 min

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