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V4.1 BETA (experimental 4.1.17D)


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When doing sharp well defined models voxel is not the ideal choice, you need very high resolution which needs tons of memory and a good computer to handle all the data voxels generate.

 

I've not run into any need for overly high resolution or memory issues at all in Voxel Mode for this kind of thing.  I wonder if it's the (CUDA) (64-bit) thing and the comp I built.  Your experiences and mine differ quite a bit.

Edited by alvordr
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Come on, this is starting to get ridiculous, you know what I mean... You're talking about tesselation enabled brushes to relax the mesh when there's an anti-stretching function available... in the brushes themselves.

You can play with word the truth is still there: the function is useful, maybe you chose other workflow but talking about using smoothing algorithm (which are destructive in their nature) while you could work directly without stretching from the get go, is a workaround.

Truth is, Beat, with a relatively dense mesh, there isn't much stretching going on, unless you create a sizeable appendage like that. I don't mean to say it's useless...just not needed as often as it once was, and not necessary to keep on full time. Most people do some degree of smoothing on a sculpt and that tends to reorder the mesh, locally, anyway.

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I've not run into any need for overly high resolution or memory issues at all in Voxel Mode for this kind of thing.  I wonder if it's the (CUDA) (64-bit) thing and the comp I built.  Your experiences and mine differ quite a bit.

I actually like the feel of Voxels, sometimes. It has a more solid, clay-like feel to it, IMO. But, the fact remains that Andrew and Raul have focused more heavily on Surface mode, the past 2yrs or so, and I think that is where Andrew feels he wants to spend most of his development time/efforts. The recent brush feel/behavior in most of the Surface mode brushes has changed my perspective on it, and that, too is where I have chosen to do most of my sculpting, lately.

 

It's pretty incredible, actually, to think that he finally has it to where 3D Coat is legitimately in the very same conversation, now, as both ZBrush and Mudbox in terms of sculpting performance, brush feel, etc. In fact, the sculpting toolset in 3D Coat has already surpassed Mudbox, in terms of the number of brushes/tools/options for sculpting. When I visit MB, now, it almost feels like I'm taking a big step backwards, in many regards.

 

Much of that can be attributed to the way Autodesk handles it's software. They do the same thing with 3ds Max plugins. They acquire it and then leave them totally undeveloped, thereafter. I think from this point on, it's going to become more and more of a 2 horse race...between ZB and 3DC.

Edited by AbnRanger
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Truth is, Beat, with a relatively dense mesh, there isn't much stretching going on, unless you create a sizeable appendage like that. I don't mean to say it's useless...just not needed as often as it once was, and not necessary to keep on full time. Most people do some degree of smoothing on a sculpt and that tends to reorder the mesh, locally, anyway.

So remove stretching is not needed if you have a base mesh from which you don't deviate much. So it's not needed if you use voxel and then use surface for detailing. Sorry, I thought we could use the surface mode for more than detailing...

I thought we could choose. 

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So remove stretching is not needed if you have a base mesh from which you don't deviate much. So it's not needed if you use voxel and then use surface for detailing. Sorry, I thought we could use the surface mode for more than detailing...

I thought we could choose. 

Again, you keep going to one extreme or the other...to try and refute my opinion about the tool. Drastic stretching of polygons like using the Move tool or very deep strokes, it's useful. But under most sculpting usage, I don't see it being needed. As I stated before, it creates a noticeable pause after a stroke. For that reason, I'd rather deal with any modest levels of stretching with the Brush smoothing options we typically use all the time.

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I'm not going to the extreme, it's your pov which is extremely narrow. You don't even consider some people like to start like with real clay: blob of clay and creating full character from there...

Working without remove stretching, then using powerfull smoothing,which actually remove polys as it relaxes the mesh, very nice on an already low res mesh, is excuse me, quite stupid.

Maybe you like to scratch on an all shaped model at the very end of your sculpt in surface mode, I don't. I like to start from the ground up, from whatever mesh I use, be it a cube or a sphere or a god awful splat of clay, then push it to where I want.

 

Liveclay and removestretching are the way to go there since voxels are ressource costly, and the brushes there are so rough they start breaking apart when you start to shape intricate things.

 

You don't see the use for it, fine, but don't try to take this away from other who may be using this as their primary tool.

At this point if that's how it should go down, I may as well say that the voxel part of the app NEEDS to be removed since it's now obsolete... And I don't, since I like choices, even if they're not mine.

 

As for the pause: It's so fast I barely notice it anymore, you're making it sound like it's a big deal, it's not, and even if I see it, it doesn't stop me or slows me down in my sculpt. It's like zbrush adaptive degradation when I rotate around a multi level mesh... I just don't care as long as it keeps the show going smoothly.

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When I'm sculpting remove stretching is always turned on. One of the most important features in 3d-coat if you ask me.

I know I like to use it when working with the Expand brush, as it tends to allow geometry to kind of fold back on top of itself, around the edges, sometimes. But other tools like Clay, Buildup, Draw, etc....I prefer to leave it off.

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remove stretching is something, that I treat as 'poor' version of  LC. If all brushes supported dynamic tesselation, there would be no need for 'remove stretching' imo.

 

I like the option of having both ways. Even though I use remove stretching most of the time, there are some circumstances that I've had where I didn't use remove stretching. I don't foresee it going anywhere, it's a very crucial option.

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Voxels,surface mode and LiveClay brushes give the artist many creative workflows to choose from. I create preset brushes for each mode. The power in 3DC is in creating you own preset brushes as artman has shown. I create preset brushes that work how I think as an artist therefore each mode as it's own value in my workflow. Some of my brushes use remove stretching and some do not. They are used at various stages in the sculpting. I even use the limited surface brushes that we have voxel mode adjusting them for a preset.

To me 3DC gives the artist great freedom in creating his work according to his style...

Edited by digman
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So far on my past experience, I plan to, like you said, start an aggressive testing session sometime in the week, but I don't know when, I've hardly enough time to sculpt for the challenge lately... (the last sculpt was a test of stability for the latest build).

 

Maybe it got better, I hope so, still those brushes which feel very poor...

 

 

Make Live Stream while you "aggressive testing"   :) I want to watch those tests ;) (I hope i don't sound like a little pervert ;D)

Edited by Creator
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BTW. I was going to ask how do you make those custom brushes? Is there some kind of tool for that, description of parameters etc? Or it is just xml editing in notepad? Is there a way to take any non LC brush, export to XML  add some xml tag, and make it LC brush?

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BTW. I was going to ask how do you make those custom brushes? Is there some kind of tool for that, description of parameters etc? Or it is just xml editing in notepad? Is there a way to take any non LC brush, export to XML  add some xml tag, and make it LC brush?

no,nothing that complicated  its just storing settings,depth curves,flattening curves ect...using Preset panel(little arrow in corner of preset tab let you decide what will or will not be stored).Its mostly guess and try.There is also general brush that is highly experimental(Andrew plan on rewriting it at some point) that can get you some nice results by mixing different behavior(but tons of checkboxes/sliders do not work or are not compatible with each others)... Personnaly I think toolset is complete right now(on my side)

meaning:I've got better version of ALL the brushes I used in MB/ZB (I mean...better for me.)

 

 

here are the key parameters (not in all brushes)

 

-Flattening Curve

-Depth Curve

-Radius Curve

-Alpha or alpha curves

-spacing(in pen options)---very important

-Rotate along stroke(in pen options)

-Anything in the upper Ui (soft stroke,Normal sampling ,ect...)

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Ah, now I see it. I thought you created some new brush by some fancy tricks in xml, because default LC Clay brush sucks so much, and yours was completely different (better). But now I see it was mostly matter of proper depth curve. I hope default LC Clay will be fixed. And hopefully invert action will work again.

BTW. anyone can confirm this bug - when switching to LC Clay brush, object shader is getting bit darker, but after swiching to any other brush shader brightness is back to normal?

And another one LC Clay wont work with freeze... :(

Ok to sum up:

1) LC Clay suck with default settings

2) LC Clay invert action won't work

3) LC Clay don't take frozen areas into account

4) LC Clay makes shader go bit darker..

Not fun..

Edited by JoseConseco
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Ah, now I see it. I thought you created some new brush by some fancy tricks in xml, because default LC Clay brush sucks so much, and yours was completely different (better). But now I see it was mostly matter of proper depth curve. I hope default LC Clay will be fixed. And hopefully invert action will work again.

BTW. anyone can confirm this bug - when switching to LC Clay brush, object shader is getting bit darker, but after swiching to any other brush shader brightness is back to normal?

And another one LC Clay wont work with freeze... :(

Ok to sum up:

1) LC Clay suck with default settings

2) LC Clay invert action won't work

3) LC Clay don't take frozen areas into account

4) LC Clay makes shader go bit darker..

Not fun..

like Beat said 3) will be fixed in next update and 4) has been posted on Mantis so Andrew will probably take notice.

 

As for my LC  Clay preset there is quite few things that are still not right I discovered 1)it does not fill deep cavities as well as Rapid2 ,the sides of deep holes tend to fold on themselves which can lead to self-intersecting,2)also fast-stroking in symmetry while the object is in lateral views will sometimes make strokes pop up at unwanted places because the stroke will somehow shear to the other side of the symmetry line...hopefully this will get fixed but I'm not sure Andrew or Raul has time for this right now .

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Ok, I tried to make bad things in 3dcoat for a while. My results:

 

-Surface (liveclay/removestretching enabled) brushes are somewhat ok. Only bridge (which create separate pieces btw, you can check with separate disconnected), copyclay and cutoff tends to create holesand  explosions.

-Conversion voxel<>surface is still not safe, most of the time surface mode recovers the mesh and looks ok but as soon as you go back to voxel and the mesh is corrupt (but not showing in surface) the voxel model is detroyed.

 

conversionBug.gif

 

So I'll stick to my workflow: avoid boolean operations and stick to surface mode, brush set in voxel is terrible anyway (couldn't find a simple clay brush that feel as good as the tenth of rapid2...)

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Conversion voxel<>surface is still not safe, most of the time surface mode recovers the mesh and looks ok but as soon as you go back to voxel and the mesh is corrupt (but not showing in surface) the voxel model is detroyed.

 

 

Please provide a file,a video....something to help Andrew reproduce quickly....

 

 

This is also part of Beta testing. No only using what works and avoid what does not work.

These builds are not just candy update they are also for testing and reporting :)

(I know you made tons of mantis report...but its not a reason to stop :) even if you are very busy...)

 

What about sym copy? It feels really safe on my side (in SF mode with LC interaction...probably even more in next build)

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The gif posted should suffice: punch a hole with Bridge, press enter.

As for copy clay I submitted a bug report reproducibility is a bit random. Cutoff works randomly too with default sphere, somrtimes it simply doesn't cap the hole. When that happens voxel conversion is an automatic fail.

And gosh, I forgot to try symmcopy in my tests (Not using sym much these days ;) ).

I'll do another run.

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The gif posted should suffice: punch a hole with Bridge, press enter.

As for copy clay I submitted a bug report reproducibility is a bit random. Cutoff works randomly too with default sphere, somrtimes it simply doesn't cap the hole. When that happens voxel conversion is an automatic fail.

And gosh, I forgot to try symmcopy in my tests (Not using sym much these days ;) ).

I'll do another run.

Im talking about Surface-Voxel conversion in general (using SF/LC brushes or Proxy mode.....)

On my side it seems pretty stable...but it needs other users testing.Proxy mode is essential tool that should not be avoided out of fear.It allows to use large move brush,pose tool ect...We don't have 3dlayers yet but it would be a pity to stay away from multires since we've been asking for it for such a long time.... 

Again on my side,it seems pretty stable (unless there is intances...where I encountered disappearing instances after conversion sometimes) but I did not test thoroughly as the current project Im working on rely more on transformations than posing/tweaking.

 

thanx :)

 

Edit:Try it on sculpts you already made :) . Should take you 5-10 minutes maximum when you got time.

Proxy mode-posing/tweaking a little bit...(with Through all option if you like) then conversion.

It will be good testing because your sculpts rely heavily on LC/Removestretching.

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I really don't trust proxy mode, here's an example (and it's always been my experience as this thing pretty much always destroyed my work sometimes noticing way too late):

 

proxyUnsafe.gif

 

I did minor adjustments on the thigh fibers, masking the cod piece, going back to full mode and I get this.

 

It's no big deal as the new algorithm recreate polystrips to fill the void in surface mode and make the surface workable again, but I'm not sure it's not corrupt anyway as the voxel conversion tends to show it.

 

On a side note: I'm eagerly waiting for a build with fixed freeze , it's though working without it.

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I really don't trust proxy mode, here's an example (and it's always been my experience as this thing pretty much always destroyed my work sometimes noticing way too late):

 

proxyUnsafe.gif

 

I did minor adjustments on the thigh fibers, masking the cod piece, going back to full mode and I get this.

 

It's no big deal as the new algorithm recreate polystrips to fill the void in surface mode and make the surface workable again, but I'm not sure it's not corrupt anyway as the voxel conversion tends to show it.

masking is not supposed to work correctly in latest build...maybe it is why you got issue .

 

also Did you use Decimate mode or Degraded mode?

 

and What adjustment did you do; Move tool or Pose tool?

 

thanx again

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I does the same thing with only going to proxy, making minor changes with rapid2 and going back to full mode. Conversion create the same problem.

 

As for your other question I don't understand.

And symmcopy seems safe again, probably thnx to autoreconstruction of polystrips on nearby holes.

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well there is 2 proxy mode (you select which one you want in voxel menu- Proxy Visualisation)

-Degrade (2x,4x ect...) use Voxels

-Decimate(2x,4x ect) use Decimation.

 

Also you mean going in proxy mode using rapid2 (without masking) and back to full mode creates same problem?

I am really not able to reproduce.

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It was on decimate 4X (didn't touch that settings since I had forgotten this option since I hid all the proxy related items in my ui).

And yes the same problem occurs with only going to proxy, making changes with rapid2 and going back. There's no visible problem in surface, but as soon as I hit enter, not even validating I see the same thing as the gif above.

 

Using degrade does not create the problem though (but it's so rough it's useless to me).

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It was on decimate 4X (didn't touch that settings since I had forgotten this option since I hid all the proxy related items in my ui).

And yes the same problem occurs with only going to proxy, making changes with rapid2 and going back. There's no visible problem in surface, but as soon as I hit enter, not even validating I see the same thing as the gif above.

 

Using degrade does not create the problem though (but it's so rough it's useless to me).

Why do you press enter??...enter does not bring back fromProxy mode it resample  the mesh back to voxels...

You dont need to press enter AT ALL.... just click proxy button...do your changes...then click back on Proxy button.

Try sculpting,smoothing over area that got change when you get back in proxy mode to see if there is issues(I dont have any)

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I press enter to simulate a workflow, I know enter = voxel and back. If I want to use proxy mode, continue my work and then convert to voxel for whatever reason (booleans ?) I get this issue. This is not acceptable.

This is not even my workflow to be honest (I don't even care about voxels anymore at least as much as I care about proxy mode). It's just that the proxy routine is breaking the mesh, as I always experienced it: unsafe.

 

This is beta test right ? New users are gonna do stupid things, they shouldn't experience bugs like that due to inexperience.

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I press enter to simulate a workflow, I know enter = voxel and back. If I want to use proxy mode, continue my work and then convert to voxel for whatever reason (booleans ?) I get this issue. This is not acceptable.

This is not even my workflow to be honest (I don't even care about voxels anymore). It's just that the proxy routine is breaking the mesh.

well its not breaking the mesh...since you can keep sculpting in sf mode afterward with all your changes done..

If the mesh was broken,trust me,you could not even lay a LC finger on it and it would explode. :)

 

What you seems to have found is an issue between resampling/and proxy mode....and frankly its a rare case when somebody is gonna do that.It is an issue nevertheless and should be fixed...

(Andrew?? do we really need to post a Mantis report;I think Beat gif is pretty clear :) )

 

but again Proxy mode in itself (going back from a lighter version of a LC sculpted 5 miilion piece to do some changes) works perfectly fine on my side(exept when instances are involved)

 

thanx for testing :)

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