Contributor BeatKitano Posted December 20, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 Please don't worry. RS will be polished at least to degree when you will be actually very happy with it, no less. If it still will not be reached, it is easy just to revert. Until that time please use previous build. We are working on LC related stuff a lot now because Raul will leave us soon, so other task are postponed a bit now. Ok. Tnx, both of you, with the exception of this small issue, the progress done on surface sculpting this last few builds is phenomenal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farsthary Posted December 20, 2013 Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 Thanks Carlosan I hope that too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member wilson66 Posted December 20, 2013 Advanced Member Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 (edited) Then first order feature for paint room is Layers groups as in PS. Any possibility for adjustment layers? And lattice deformation for textures (before applied to the object) would be nice. But I'm dreaming here probably. Anyway, thanks for that great piece of software Andrew. Only started using it a while ago and still need to wrap my head around the complete workflow, but I like it a lot. Edited December 20, 2013 by wilson66 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member SilverCity Posted December 20, 2013 Member Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 Then first order feature for paint room is Layers groups as in PS. I think that, in general, because 3DC is a 2D/3D paint program, PS is a good model to follow as far as function and UI is concerned. PS is a standard (whether we like it or not) and almost everyone knows how to use it. It is time and user tested. No need to reinvent the wheel. If 3DC can have the same consistency and familiarity as PS, this can be a big selling point for 3DC. ZB and Blender have unique UI's and workflows, and I know that some are uncomfortable using these apps. 3DC can really shine in this one area. I know this isn't easy, but I think this is a good direction to follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor BeatKitano Posted December 20, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 No one likes Zbrush UI at first, after a while you get "used to it", but if you can make a zbrush with standard UI you have a public. It's what skymatters did with mudbox 1.0, it was really cool. 3dcoat has a ton more functionalities, state of the art sculpting paradim, if Pilgway can manage to stay on course on the "Standard UI", it's a win win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted December 20, 2013 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 Any possibility for adjustment layers? And lattice deformation for textures (before applied to the object) would be nice. But I'm dreaming here probably. Anyway, thanks for that great piece of software Andrew. Only started using it a while ago and still need to wrap my head around the complete workflow, but I like it a lot. I got a better idea....how about instead of adding a bunch more new stuff, Andrew instead invests his valuable development time on fixing what's broke...FIRST? There is a whole lot of that to work on, before we ever get to the shiny new toy stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farsthary Posted December 20, 2013 Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 Yes AbnRanger, that's what we will do in next builds, until things are not stable enough (no software will be 100% bug free ever unless is a specific small software) no new features will be crammed 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Javis Posted December 20, 2013 Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 I've only had a few issues with the paint room, bug wise, Andrew has been quick to fix them. I use the paint room a LOT lately, and feel like it is very solid. It could stand for some optimisation and speed improvements for some things, but overall it is very good. I think if anything were a little buggy regarding the paint room, it is more with exporting texture maps. It can sometimes be wonky and inconsistent between builds, and sometimes displacement maps don't export correctly (hard to nail that one down). If I could change one thing with the paint room, I would change the exporter (Andrew knows this, with my giant mockup I sent him). It would also be cool to have the option to have a paint layer directly correspond to a file on disk with it's own saving/updating functions, too. It would remove the need for the applink plugins, at least for painting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted December 20, 2013 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 (edited) I've only had a few issues with the paint room, bug wise, Andrew has been quick to fix them. I use the paint room a LOT lately, and feel like it is very solid. It could stand for some optimisation and speed improvements for some things, but overall it is very good. I think if anything were a little buggy regarding the paint room, it is more with exporting texture maps. It can sometimes be wonky and inconsistent between builds, and sometimes displacement maps don't export correctly (hard to nail that one down). If I could change one thing with the paint room, I would change the exporter (Andrew knows this, with my giant mockup I sent him). It would also be cool to have the option to have a paint layer directly correspond to a file on disk with it's own saving/updating functions, too. It would remove the need for the applink plugins, at least for painting. +100. I just sent Andrew an e-mail and a work file about the inconsistent results. One UV map (Body) on the same model, exported a displacement map correctly and the other UV Map (Head) completely blank. Me and Digman recently discovered the Texture Baking tool is the same way...pretty broken. This is why I get so frustrated and upset, sometimes. Here I am wasting hours trying to find out why something as simple as object scale is out of whack (after reporting it for YEARS), or exporting a displacement map isn't working and then end up have to waste time trying to work around it. While at the same time, we have folks asking for 2D Grid gizmos, EPS file saving/exporting, lattices on materials, etc....all the while, we have a LOT of broke stuff....features that simply don't work...sliders that don't...well....SLIDE! Inconsistent tools throughout the entire app (there is a Transform gizmo/tool in the Voxel tool panel, Pose tool, Primitives tool, Retopo Room and the Tweak Room, and not a single one of them is the same. This causes totally unnecessary confusion and adds to a new user's learning curve. Not good. Not good...at all. Heck, we even have entire ROOMS (Tweak Room) that are fossilized and dilapidated. Andrew and Raul, I do appreciate all the hard work, but please...before you consider yet another feature addition, ask yourself if all the known things that are broken....are FIXED. All the nice features in the world don't matter if you are having to fight with the application to finish your work. Now, Merry Christmas to everyone. Edited December 21, 2013 by AbnRanger 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted December 21, 2013 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 (edited) Still getting all these empty patches in the textures. Don't see a REPLACE GEOMETRY option anymore.....some of these same issues keep cropping up and never seemed to get/stay fixed. This app is getting back to the same frustrating, broken stage is was a few years ago. Can't seem to work anywhere in the app without some kind of glitch or issue. Can we scrap the Layer group plans until we get what needs to be fixed, working first? Is that so much to ask? Edited December 21, 2013 by AbnRanger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolyHertz Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 first order feature for paint room is Layers groups as in PS. I'm always glad to hear you say this, as it continues to give me hope that many of the most needed improvements to the paint room are really coming and not just a pipe dream anymore. Paint group layers is the most significant, but I'm also really looking forward to proper layer masks (assuming that's coming as well) and hopefully the removal or ability to turn off texture culling. Can we scrap the Layer group plans until we get what needs to be fixed, working first? Is that so much to ask? The paint layer groups feature is the most requested feature in all of mantis and is by far one of the oldest. It NEEDS to happen. It can't just be pushed off forever with the excuse "fix bugs first!", despite how important bug fixes are. Personally the main non-feature issue I'd like to see resolved is the texture culling 3DC does on all layers, its caused me a lot of problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted December 21, 2013 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 (edited) I'm always glad to hear you say this, as it continues to give me hope that many of the most needed improvements to the paint room are really coming and not just a pipe dream anymore. Paint group layers is the most significant, but I'm also really looking forward to proper layer masks (assuming that's coming as well) and hopefully the removal or ability to turn off texture culling. The paint layer groups feature is the most requested feature in all of mantis and is by far one of the oldest. It NEEDS to happen. It can't just be pushed off forever with the excuse "fix bugs first!", despite how important bug fixes are. Personally the main non-feature issue I'd like to see resolved is the texture culling 3DC does on all layers, its caused me a lot of problems. You don't put a new coat of paint over a rusty patch of metal, and likewise, it doesn't matter how shiny the feature...nor how long it's been requested. It makes no sense to keep stacking new and seldom-polished features onto already broken ones. There are plenty of feature requests that date back years, and have gone unheeded. Some I have requested myself. But until the broken things get fixed...no new features matter. I have been using 3D Coat for over 6yrs now, and there has never been a time where I felt Paint Layer Groups were....NEEDED. What's needed is for the stuff that is already in 3D Coat to work properly. The sliders in the Paint Room are fake vaneer UI decorations. I'd like them to actually work. What's NEEDED is for the application to help the user....not fight him to get work done. Edited December 21, 2013 by AbnRanger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolyHertz Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 (edited) That's fine that you don't personally need paint layer groups, but I'm fairly certain when it comes to texturing in any professional setting you're in the minority. And I'm not arguing against bug fixes, I'm saying I don't want clearly neglected areas to be ignored for years on end with "bug fixes" as the scapegoat reasoning. Edited December 21, 2013 by PolyHertz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted December 21, 2013 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 (edited) That's fine that you don't personally need paint layer groups, but I'm fairly certain when it comes to texturing in any professional setting you're in the minority. And I'm not arguing against bug fixes, I'm saying I don't want clearly neglected areas to be ignored for years on end with "bug fixes" as the scapegoat reasoning. Professional, eh? So, what PROFESSIONAL 3D Texture painting apps (apart from Photoshop) have Paint Layer Groups? Does Mudbox or ZBrush have them? I mean, after all...they ARE a necessity, and professionals must have them....right? Sliders just flat out not working (paint dries faster)...is not a bug. The transform tools not being consistent throughout the app is not a bug. Exporting a model from the paint room and later merging it into the Voxel room, and finding it come in at a completely different scale...isn't a bug. It's a systematic problem in 3D Coat. Adding features and features that are never fully thought through and refined until they are done right. This needs to stop. If I've got two kids screaming for my attention....one is crying to be taken to the hospital and the other wants to go get some ice cream...guess who gets heard? That's right. Screw the bleep-ing ice cream. Edited December 21, 2013 by AbnRanger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolyHertz Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 (edited) Mari does, as does Blender in a very rudimentary sense, and iirc Bodypaint does as well (can't remember for sure on that one though). Technically if you're doing art just for fun you don't need anything, its just preference, but yes in a studio or even as a freelancer you're often given strict guidlines you need to adhere to for your master psd files. Sure you could do most of your texturing in 3DC and then transfer and organize the layers in Photoshop before submission, but this is an extra step that depending upon revisions might need to be done several times per asset. It also becomes an issue when you're working with very large layer sets or working with pre-sorted atlases. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like what you want isn't primarily bug fixes, it's a complete overhaul of the entire app from the ground up to be more consistent and user friendly. While I agree with this sentiment, I'm not sure if its something we'll ever see without massive support from the user base and even then there's a good chance it would just discourage Andrew from working on the app at all. Edited December 21, 2013 by PolyHertz 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted December 21, 2013 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 (edited) Mari does, as does Blender in a very rudimentary sense, and iirc Bodypaint does as well (can't remember for sure on that one though). Technically if you're doing art just for fun you don't need anything, its just preference, but yes in a studio or even as a freelancer you're often given strict guidlines you need to adhere to for your master psd files. Sure you could do most of your texturing in 3DC and then transfer and organize the layers in Photoshop before submission, but this is an extra step that depending upon revisions might need to be done several times per asset. It also becomes an issue when you're working with very large layer sets or working with pre-sorted atlases. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like what you want isn't primarily bug fixes, it's a complete overhaul of the entire app from the ground up to be more consistent and user friendly. While I agree with this sentiment, I'm not sure if its something we'll ever see without massive support from the user base and even then there's a good chance it would just discourage Andrew from working on the app at all. Got links for those examples? Just curious. Thanks for the tips on what PROFESSIONALS do. Pretty big leap on your part, making assumptions about who is and is not a professional, here. Plenty of us here suggested certain UI changes and improvements back in the V4 Beta cycle, and some of that had to do with improving Paint layers. So, you can save your lecture on what PROFESSIONALS need (as if myself and others here are not). Beat Kitno contributed a LOT on that score and even he agrees that polish is better than pretty little trinkets. BTW, who is calling for a complete overhaul?...unless you consider fixing what isn't working in the app, a complete overhaul. Edited December 21, 2013 by AbnRanger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor BeatKitano Posted December 21, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 I actually think both needs adressing quickly. I was the annoying guy screaming for sculpt room, while I still think the app must be bug free as much as possible, I also understand perfectly polyhertz pov. He has been asking this for a while now and never saw anything coming because, I, and a few others, have been all about the sculpt room. And I do agree that layer groups would help a lot for multiuser authoring in a production environnment btw (when working with a few dozen layer it's getting difficult to assess your content because there's no hierarchy, same could be said with the nested layers in sculpt room as they're not easily differentiated from the other layers) So both needs fixing, I understand you need both to make your point come accross, but I've trust that this time Andrew and Raul will get it done. Just a little more patience (yeah I know I've been here :p) If only Raul could be here all the time :/ I hope his work is facilitated in Cuba now as Andrew suggested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted December 21, 2013 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 (edited) I actually think both needs adressing quickly. I was the annoying guy screaming for sculpt room, while I still think the app must be bug free as much as possible, I also understand perfectly polyhertz pov. He has been asking this for a while now and never saw anything coming because, I, and a few others, have been all about the sculpt room. And I do agree that layer groups would help a lot for multiuser authoring in a production environnment btw (when working with a few dozen layer it's getting difficult to assess your content because there's no hierarchy, same could be said with the nested layers in sculpt room as they're not easily differentiated from the other layers) So both needs fixing, I understand you need both to make your point come accross, but I've trust that this time Andrew and Raul will get it done. Just a little more patience (yeah I know I've been here :p) If only Raul could be here all the time :/ I hope his work is facilitated in Cuba now as Andrew suggested. I've been asking repeatedly for a SHELL modifier/tool in the Retopo Room for ages and ages. If you need to create a shell/thickness for something like a wing, clothing, armor, etc. It's often a PITA to do...because 3D Coat has no shell modifier. Same thing for Shift + Drag extrusion when using the Transform Tool in the Retopo Room. Could make the task a LOT easier than it is now. To me...that's a MUCH higher priority than Paint Layer Grouping. It's something everyone who uses the Retopo Tools will be using A LOT! With Paint Layer groups, not so much. Only a very small percentage of the userbase will find a use for it. I've been asking for a long, long, long, long, long, long time....for a Dot Ring tool, like you have in Max, that could reduce the poly count of an Auto Retopo result, in just 2-3 clicks flat. Right now, if you have dozens of loops to delete, it can take a while. This solves it in 2-3 clicks. But I have patiently waited or other things to get fixed...such as Auto Retopo recently (still not working properly....can't get squat from it on hard surface models), now LiveClay/Surface mode with all the holes and such. To me...if you and Artman hadn't harped and harped to get the brushes fixed, sculpting in 3D Coat wouldn't be anywhere near what it is. It wasn't a matter of asking for a shiny new toy. It was asking for what is in 3D Coat to work the way it should. Edited December 21, 2013 by AbnRanger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolyHertz Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 (edited) AbnRanger: I apologize as it was never my intent to insult you or anyone else with they way I used the word "professional", I was simply using it as an alternative to "in a studio environment" / "as a freelancer". I have no idea who here does this professionally and who does it just for fun, and I am not going to assume either way. Despite that I need to make it clear in my posts which side I'm coming from for clarity sake, but for the future I'll try and make sure to avoid using that word here. As for your request for examples of the layer groups in the apps I mentioned previously (couldn't confirm them for BodyPaint): Mari: http://blog.advancedphotoshop.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/MARI-layer-system-1-copy4.jpg Blender: http://wiki.blender.org/uploads/thumb/e/ee/Scripts_3D_texture_paint_layer_manager-panel.jpg/200px-Scripts_3D_texture_paint_layer_manager-panel.jpg SHELL...It's something everyone who uses the Retopo Tools will be using A LOT! With Paint Layer groups, not so much. Only a very small percentage of the userbase will find a use for it. Paint layer groups has almost 4x as many people asking for it as shell on Mantis. Edited December 21, 2013 by PolyHertz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted December 21, 2013 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 AbnRanger: I apologize as it was never my intent to insult you or anyone else with they way I used the word "professional", I was simply using it as an alternative to "in a studio environment" / "as a freelancer". I have no idea who here does this professionally and who does it just for fun, and I am not going to assume either way. Despite that I need to make it clear in my posts which side I'm coming from for clarity sake, but for the future I'll try and make sure to avoid using that word here. As for your request for examples of the layer groups in the apps I mentioned previously (couldn't confirm them for BodyPaint): Mari: http://blog.advancedphotoshop.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/MARI-layer-system-1-copy4.jpg Blender: http://wiki.blender.org/uploads/thumb/e/ee/Scripts_3D_texture_paint_layer_manager-panel.jpg/200px-Scripts_3D_texture_paint_layer_manager-panel.jpg Paint layer groups has almost 4x as many people asking for it as shell on Mantis. I'm pretty sure I supported that request, too...but like all the other feature requests myself and others have made (true Ambient Occlusion is among the oldest and most requested...and STILL no sign of it ever getting done), I realize that it's better to let things that need to get fixed take their rightful place at the front of the line. When those things are done, then I am in favor of seeing things like Paint Layers and hopefully layer masks (on the layers w/thumbnails, just like it is done in PS) too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolyHertz Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 (edited) Well right now Andrews doing almost nothing but fixes, and I'm sure that gets tiring too. Features are the fun part of coding, it helps keep devs motivated to take a break from the bugs every so often. When 4.1 is released and work is started on the paint room I'm sure there will be plenty of bug fixes as well but asking Andrew to do just that would be a bit cruel. Edited December 21, 2013 by PolyHertz 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Shpagin Posted December 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 Any possibility for adjustment layers? And lattice deformation for textures (before applied to the object) would be nice. But I'm dreaming here probably. Anyway, thanks for that great piece of software Andrew. Only started using it a while ago and still need to wrap my head around the complete workflow, but I like it a lot. Lattice deformation over masks/materials is there for years Just choose "deform" in materials control panel droplist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member manticor Posted December 21, 2013 Advanced Member Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 Andrew, will you be speeding up the paint layer on \ off switching. finding the correct layer to modify if I've Accidentally made a mistake can take quite a while with a model with many layers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlosan Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 Thats why development team really need a roadmap A focused roadmap with milestone over scheduled time. A roadmap let the betausers to focus finding bugs in every development step, like a group sharing experiences. And let the users asking for changes/bugfixing in another areas not related to actual bugfixing, to know when the time to their betatesting begin. But overall... let the developers to know if really need to fix a bug, or need to rewrite code from scratch because some code is old and first... they need to consolidate new features and then to fix later any issues. my humble pov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member wilson66 Posted December 21, 2013 Advanced Member Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 Lattice deformation over masks/materials is there for years Just choose "deform" in materials control panel droplist. You do not mean the 'Distort Image' feature that you can choose in the top window when a material is selected and where you can distort the image using a brush, right? Its great, but does not give exactly the kind of control I'm looking for. What I'm talking about is this: Is that possible? Where is that feature hidden? Excuse my questions that may be simple to answer. I have a lot to learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor BeatKitano Posted December 21, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 As far as I know, you can't do that, but you can use the projection in an external editor to work around that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted December 21, 2013 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 You do not mean the 'Distort Image' feature that you can choose in the top window when a material is selected and where you can distort the image using a brush, right? Its great, but does not give exactly the kind of control I'm looking for. What I'm talking about is this: Is that possible? Where is that feature hidden? Excuse my questions that may be simple to answer. I have a lot to learn. It works more like the Liquefy tool in PS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member mercy Posted December 21, 2013 Member Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 (edited) Is that possible? Where is that feature hidden? Excuse my questions that may be simple to answer. I have a lot to learn. I wanted the same, but in Preview Options if you click on Paint, a new menu opens there is Distort. Its a brush (Liquify in PS) does the same and more as Warp. You better bind this texture's rotate/scale/pan functions to hotkeys via (Camera...Customize Navigation) as I did, so you can work very fast. More advanced feature of this Distort is that with SHIFT+brushing you can undo distortion by increments. Edited December 21, 2013 by mercy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor artman Posted December 21, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 Andrew,at Beat's request another dot was added to display the other side of symmetry action when sculpting, its very useful because this way you never forget if symmetry is on or not. But...when working in lateral views its very disturbing...because both dots are dancing around each other....I find it very difficult to concentrate on strokes.Could you please make it so that it gets hidden when its backfacing camera.... or if too difficult/too long make this new display optional in preferences. thanx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member alvordr Posted December 21, 2013 Advanced Member Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 Lattice deformation over masks/materials is there for years Just choose "deform" in materials control panel droplist. I think you mean "Distort image?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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