V4.1 BETA (experimental 4.1.17D)

[AbnRanger]

Andrew said we'd get PS style masking in 3DC a while ago, but there hasn't been any word since the Symmetry/Mask poll: http://3d-coat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=16297

Supposedly he's working on PBR atm instead.

That was before lots of folks started pounding the table for PBR shaders/materials. He's been having to fix a host of bugs and small, but urgent requests. I'm sure it's still at the top of his "To Do" list.

[BeatKitano]

Since we're talking about bugs related to symmetry work, I reiterate:

 

Andrew needs to fix the symmstore propertie of presets. If he doesn't do it now the problem will plague everyone using symmetry and updating their presets.

 

Basicaly: if you don't use same axis across all your presets you get random attribution to the other presets once you update ONE preset with a different sym axis.

 

This makes working with 3dc impossible as soon as you switch preset you get different symmetry settings... Users will encounter this bug, that's a certainty and there's no solution except delete all presets and recreate them from scratch (importing a file or deleting the user presets in userfolders doesn't fix it).

 

Technicaly once you encounter this bug you need to redo all your presets from scratch, there's NO OTHER way... otherwise you've got to reset your symmetry settings everytime you switch preset and/or select another volume, just imagine the hell...

This bugs nullify all the work done on symmetry, it's back to the way it was before with one axis and no per volume setting.

I went from "3dc is fun to work with" to "i'm going back to zbrush" :/

[artman]

Since we're talking about bugs related to symmetry work, I reiterate:

 

Andrew needs to fix the symmstore propertie of presets. If he doesn't do it now the problem will plague everyone using symmetry and updating their presets.

 

Basicaly: if you don't use same axis across all your presets you get random attribution to the other presets once you update ONE preset with a different sym axis.

 

This makes working with 3dc impossible as soon as you switch preset you get different symmetry settings... Users will encounter this bug, that's a certainty and there's no solution except delete all presets and recreate them from scratch (importing a file or deleting the user presets in userfolders doesn't fix it).

 

Technicaly once you encounter this bug you need to redo all your presets from scratch, there's NO OTHER way... otherwise you've got to reset your symmetry settings everytime you switch preset and/or select another volume, just imagine the hell...

This bugs nullify all the work done on symmetry, it's back to the way it was before with one axis and no per volume setting.

I went from "3dc is fun to work with" to "i'm going back to zbrush" :/

yeah,i just hope he can reproduce...

[BeatKitano]

If he doesn't someone else will.. I didn't believe you at first then sh** hit the fan... not hard to reproduce at all.. I expect a lot of complain soon if this is isn't fixed quickly. You just have to touch sym axis and update presets (but if you want to do somework, I suggest you not to try on purpose... pretty annoying)

[PolyHertz]

That was before lots of folks started pounding the table for PBR shaders/materials. He's been having to fix a host of bugs and small, but urgent requests. I'm sure it's still at the top of his "To Do" list.

 

Yea it's totally understandable. PS compatible masks would be extremely useful, but PBRs importance is on a whole other level; If 3DC doesn't get PBR support a lot of people will be forced to switch to a competing 3D painting app soon or later.

[Javis]

Thanks for the Layer Blending popup Andrew! It's pretty handy.

 

 

I found a few bugs related to the new functionality.

 

Layer Blending Popup: Missing functions and vertical size:

http://3d-coat.com/mantis/view.php?id=1598

 

Rotate Along Stroke w/ Brush7:

http://3d-coat.com/mantis/view.php?id=1599

 

Thanks!

[Javis]

To also confirm, symmetry is completely borked and useless.

[BeatKitano]

Good luck Javis... Neeeext ! :/

[BeatKitano]

Btw if Andrew would be kind enough to add that dropdown section like in liveclay general brush (the "More Options") everywhere needed that would be cool (but it needs a special indication as wether or not it's a button or collapsing section as it stands it's easy to miss the extra options because you take it as a button.)

 

Edit (added pic)

 

 

[ajz3d]

Those problems with presets and symmetry that you guys discuss. Are they limited to the newest version 4.1.14 only?

[artman]

Those problems with presets and symmetry that you guys discuss. Are they limited to the newest version 4.1.14 only?

no,the same jungle happen when Im in 4.1.13...I think issue don't happen until you really start making or updating a few presets with symmstore while changing symmetry modes...then I think presets for which you did not update/store anything start to get messed up.Its like 3Dcoat is then requiring you to create new presets with symm stored for ALL your presets until it knows symmetry modes for each....I think the source of the bug is that update presets feature from preset menu is broken and does not update symm mode.(for example ;Im not able to update local to global....but if I make a new preset instead of updating it will store the mode correctly...)

[Javis]

Btw if Andrew would be kind enough to add that dropdown section like in liveclay general brush (the "More Options") everywhere needed that would be cool (but it needs a special indication as wether or not it's a button or collapsing section as it stands it's easy to miss the extra options because you take it as a button.)

 

Yeah, that would definitely be cool. I'd like to see that.

[artman]

Andrew here are some better testing about holes happening when using RemoveStretvhing along sym line after Symm copy was used.

I provided the brush I used (its a rapid2 modification for Trimming/Flattening) ,issue happens with most brushes with RS on and some Liveclay brushes too but this preset I attached will let you reproduce very very quickly.

Holes test brush.3dcpack (its just 1 brush called Holes test brush)

Here you can see left image is 3.1.08A  after 10 seconds strokes,Right is 3.1.14 after 10 second strokes.

Both are only default malebust with SymmCopy used right after opening the files.

 

 

So either something changed in all LC and RS code or its the symmcopy command that create the issue...

Imo symmcopy is more likely the culprit since between 3.1.08A and 3.1.14 there was mostly changes to symmetry not RS/LC...

 

Hope that helps.

[Javis]

Btw if Andrew would be kind enough to add that dropdown section like in liveclay general brush (the "More Options") everywhere needed that would be cool (but it needs a special indication as wether or not it's a button or collapsing section as it stands it's easy to miss the extra options because you take it as a button.)

 

Edit (added pic)

 

 

That Stroke Settings panel is exactly how it should be. Nice work.

[BeatKitano]

Thx, untouched since 2011, but you already know that

[artman]

Thx, untouched since 2011, but you already know that

I think its cool  and well organised but there's a few things I'm not personnaly fond of... like having Soft Stroke and Paint modes in submenus..(.its not because zb has lazymouse toggle hidden in a remote submenu 3Dcoat should do the same...)  I like that 3DCoat has them in the upper Ui section...with this ui I would be forced to dock a menu just for accessing Paint modes... ending with even less working space than I already have.....just my opinion.

[Javis]

Personally I think all of those options should be in their respective menus. Not to hide them, but to organize them. The top bar should be completely customizable, so the user can decide what they want there and because one size never fits everyone. For that matter, there should also be a customizable panel so we can deck it out with all the stuff we need, be it a dropdown list, a toggle button/tickbox, a preset or anything else.

 

With that type of setup, it would be more than easy to have a very organized UI.

[BeatKitano]

Personally I think all of those options should be in their respective menus. Not to hide them, but to organize them. The top bar should be completely customizable, so the user can decide what they want there and because one size never fits everyone. For that matter, there should also be a customizable panel so we can deck it out with all the stuff we need, be it a dropdown list, a toggle button/tickbox, a preset or anything else.

 

With that type of setup, it would be more than easy to have a very organized UI.

 

The custom panel was the original idea when the ui Overhaul (I mean the first one, not 2011) happened. That would've been the perfect solution if done right: have the layout you want with the tool YOU as an artist really use.

Now I'd love to see this happen, but that would require months of work and entire dedication to cover the entire application and the special cases (for instance getting an "apply" button that work within the current tool selected etc etc)

It's not only a question of drag and dropping items, but have the system work on his own with xml saving/loading and context sensitive alternative functions, and every item being converted to a new special object for this to work.

 

 

 

I think its cool  and well organised but there's a few things I'm not personnaly fond of... like having Soft Stroke and Paint modes in submenus..(.its not because zb has lazymouse toggle hidden in a remote submenu 3Dcoat should do the same...)  I like that 3DCoat has them in the upper Ui section...with this ui I would be forced to dock a menu just for accessing Paint modes... ending with even less working space than I already have.....just my opinion.

It's a mockup the overall sorting is not always the best, in fact I tried to make a bit of sense when doing the mockup (so 2011, the reason why some items may be missing and other have changed) but that wasn't the point. 

The point was to demonstrate Andrew that with just a few concepts and getting a shot at organization into a hierarchy we could make the UI less scary and still retain most functions.

I'm not an UI designer, my work here was surely flawed but I think it's still better than stacks of checkbox without link to each other as a looong list on a panel.

Imo the best ui are those designed with the idea that there's a logic in the UI item groups. You can have loads of functions and UI items as loong as you separate their use and offer an easy way to identify the sections you need to go forward.

Something zbrush doesn't necessary succeed at for instance: the geometry/subtool groups in the Tool palette are sometimes completely illogical and that's why you get people "searching their way" into the ui because they expect one item to be in a group while it's in the other.

 

BTW: you don't want to have submenu open to use the topbar item: that's something that isn't shown here. But technically in the design doc the idea was to offer a right click menu on the top bar to toggle it's visibility.

It meant you could use the submenu thing only, or use the top bar only, or use both: choice. Another keypoint I always made sure to have in the mockup submitted, I don't want user to be frustrated by ui design that weren't theirs.

 

For instance the subseparator (separator lines with dropdown arrow) are movable inside the section and collapsable: you can have them where you want them (on top of the list resolving your issue with "burried" menu item) or you can have very short panel by toggling visibility on the items you don't use.

 

For instance here the panel can use the whole screen vertical axis leaving almost the entire screen to work with (the stroke/tool/alpha items are clickables and call the e-panel/alpha panel/Quick Access menu).

You have the stacked panel here and THAT'S ALL (unless you want to have other one of course).

Here's an even older mockup (imagine the one up there with the same setup and the tool palette gone, and see how much screen estate you can even reclaim if you collapse the stroke settings section and put preset there for instance...)

[AbnRanger]

I'd rather have NOTHING up top. Clutter does not = convenience. You can see from Mudbox's example, there is an attributes panel beneath the layers and all controls are located there, nice and tidy-like. If it works for Mudbox, it can work in 3D Coat, too.

 

 

[AbnRanger]

Here is Mudbox's UI...NOTHING up top, and the UI looks clean because of it:

 

 

Perhaps panels can be minimized or expanded ala Photoshop....because it has the same problem.

[AbnRanger]

As for the different paint modes/channels (Color/Spec/Depth), I think Beat had a mockup of that being in the layer panel. That would work great for me, and it seems more logically located. Right now, in 3D Coat, you have to go ALL OVER the UI to do a pre-flight check list BEFORE you start painting. Should never be that way. All the controls/attributes/parameters should be in ONE location, or at least one section of the UI.

[BeatKitano]

With the widescreen models becoming and more relevant it doesn't make much sense to lose the already quite small amount of vertical space with top bar and all. Options needed still but imo it's much smarter to take space on the side where's there's plenty to take from without becoming an hinderance.

 

(for the paint modes it's up there on top of this page)

[AbnRanger]

With the widescreen models becoming and more relevant it doesn't make much sense to lose the already quite small amount of vertical space with top bar and all. Options needed still but imo it's much smarter to take space on the side where's there's plenty to take from without becoming an hinderance.

 

(for the paint modes it's up there on top of this page)

That + the fact that one can stretch the UI horizontally across 2 screens, so you have all panels on your 2nd monitor, and nothing but the viewport on your primary monitor....if you really need more screen real-estate.

Can't do anything to get more vertical space.

[philnolan3d]

I'd rather have NOTHING up top. Clutter does not = convenience. You can see from Mudbox's example, there is an attributes panel beneath the layers and all controls are located there, nice and tidy-like. If it works for Mudbox, it can work in 3D Coat, too.

 

 

 

 

I personally disagree. I find that one thin strip across the top takes up much less room than a whole panel. I've noticed that like some people you like having half your screen covered in panels. Myself I prefer to have the main viewport as big as possible I don't need to see every possible brush choice at once for example so I put them in a small panel on the side. Much of the time I don't need to see them at all so I might have them hidden with another tab visible. I see you mention stretching it across 2 screens, that's something most people don't gave the option of doing. Most people only have one monitor.

[BeatKitano]

So... options right ? :|

[AbnRanger]

I personally disagree. I find that one thin strip across the top takes up much less room than a whole panel. I've noticed that like some people you like having half your screen covered in panels. Myself I prefer to have the main viewport as big as possible I don't need to see every possible brush choice at once for example so I put them in a small panel on the side. Much of the time I don't need to see them at all so I might have them hidden with another tab visible. I see you mention stretching it across 2 screens, that's something most people don't gave the option of doing. Most people only have one monitor.

Phil, moving the tool options from the Tool Bar to the....Tool Options panel is not the same as making another panel. It's consolidating ALL the tool parameters in one logical location.....not spread all across the UI, as it is now. And whether I like having brushes visible or not, has no bearing on this discussion. Sometime I want more real estate in the viewport and other times I may want more panels so I can quickly get the to options/parameters I know I'll be using.

 

Also, the option to stretch a UI across 2 monitors was mentioned because it is indeed....an OPTION. However, there is no option to expand the UI vertically. That's the point. Again, a happy compromise could be minimizing/expanding of panels, like you have in Photoshop.

[AbnRanger]

By the way, does anyone else get this strange behavior when using the "Paint with Splines" tool in the Paint Room? Just create some points > click on any of the buttons ( Circle, Line, Equalize, etc). And for some reason, the points face down the Z axis.

 

Don't know if the change to Axial Symmetry threw this off, or what

[artman]

 

 

Phil, moving the tool options from the Tool Bar to the....Tool Options panel is not the same as making another panel. It's consolidating ALL the tool parameters in one logical location.....not spread all across the UI, as it is now. And whether I like having brushes visible or not, has no bearing on this discussion. Sometime I want more real estate in the viewport and other times I may want more panels so I can quickly get the to options/parameters I know I'll be using.

 

Also, the option to stretch a UI across 2 monitors was mentioned because it is indeed....an OPTION. However, there is no option to expand the UI vertically. That's the point. Again, a happy compromise could be minimizing/expanding of panels, like you have in Photoshop.

 

 I don't have tool options docked ...only shaders and voxtree... so to me yes that is another panel that I would be forced to dock and personally I like having some options in the top ui...I come from ZB so Im used to be looking up not down when working...so I don't care if as Beat said I get ways to still customize my ui the way I want it.Im a lot like Phil on this one I don't have a second monitor and don't want to either... Evryone is different and that's ok like that,this is why we get custom UIs in apps I guess...for example I couldn't work with a workspace like yours Don to me its really the opposite of my definition of consolidated ( heck,I don't even have brushes docked anymore in my ui let alone 2 entire rows of docked panels)

[AbnRanger]

 I don't have tool options docked ...only shaders and voxtree... so to me yes that is another panel that I would be forced to dock and personally I like having some options in the top ui...I come from ZB so Im used to be looking up not down when working...so I don't care if as Beat said I get ways to still customize my ui the way I want it.Im a lot like Phil on this one I don't have a second monitor and don't want to either... Evryone is different and that's ok like that,this is why we get custom UIs in apps I guess...for example I couldn't work with a workspace like yours Don to me its really the opposite of my definition of consolidated ( heck,I don't even have brushes docked anymore in my ui let alone 2 entire rows of docked panels)

I'm used to having 2 panels on the right side, from years of working in 3ds Max, so it's natural for me. I hope there is option to hide the Toolbar and instead list it as a section in the Tool Options panel, that way we can all be happy.

 

One reason I don't mind having 2 panels on the side is because most objects we work on, are longer vertically than horizontally....so there is a lot of blank space to the sides, rather than top and bottom. If I'm working on something that is long horizontally, then I usually elect to reduce the panel width.

[Carlosan]

Feature request:
 
0001602: Make Left Tool Panel dockable and resizable as another windows[/size]
 
Trello voting card[/size]