Contributor LJB Posted January 19, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 I've the feeling that I'm almost the only one not stopping at my user experience and actualy want the software to succeed as a commercial product not just "my tool"... Tell me I'm wrong please ! You not alone 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlosan Posted January 19, 2013 Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 i strong support all but -from my pov- 7) Change "Voxel" Room (tab) to "Sculpt Room" At this room we Sculpt, is advance isnt advance... new users dont worry about it... Sculpt Room is clear. --- 1) Fix typos Is there any list done ? Or Andrew need to find one by one ? Andrew time is gold, may be is better to help him in this tedious find and change work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor BeatKitano Posted January 19, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 Go ahead carlosa start one, I'll contribute if those are taken into consideration (won't fall for that again). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor LJB Posted January 19, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 I used to teach LW in NY some years ago, and this is partly why I stopped instructing. Keeping up with current & changing curriculae/documentation and videos was a nightmare with screenshots and screen captures because the UI had changed. I loved instruction, but hated making the docs stay relevant over time. Unfortunately for a moving target like software, this is the name of the game. Better tutorial organization by the creators would help (i.e. naming the video with the 3DC version # in the title) but that's a bit like putting a milk carton "Best Before" label on it and many older tutes have very useful information - even if they are a touch out of date. The only way around this is to check for later versioned tutorials first and also if the tute creator puts a Youtube comment overlay onto the video mentioning if the video contains techniques which no longer apply to the current version. That way end users could still get good stuff out of the video without the confusion you mention. It is a bit more work for the tutorial creators though and yet another reason why we should thank them and buy their wares to support them... I hate to say this but Many times I have sat and Worked through Training plans and recorded HOURS of video that is obsolete very quickly and never goes further than the Cutting room. All too often i record pieces and find myself questioning my actions, not because I am unsure of my process but more so because the workflow feels a bit disjointed & confusing. It is now more than ever possible to work through entire projects within 3D-Coat but things (to me at least) still feel clunky and the ergonomics of the application still feel confusing when trying to explain to new users. [EDIT its not that its doesn't work, the rhythm just feels wrong] I'm not trying to be difficult, Really I'm not, but I still feel, that things could be a whole lot better with a little work on consistency and standardizing a few areas. I know its easy for me to say that and consistency is possibly much more than a little work. !!Big Issue Right now!! I am seeing HUGE delays when switching tools in not just the retopo room but thoughout 3D-Coat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member 4museman Posted January 19, 2013 Member Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 Strong support for what AbnRanger and carlosa remarked! I can confirm, that some of the mentioned naming caused my initial misunderstanding and confusion. Also details like for example "Windows/Popups/Brush Settings" that brings up a pallete named "Options" can lead one to a confusion. Several times I couldn't find that item, even if I came through all names in the Popups list. I think, that even name "Popups" is maybe questionable in this case. But since I'm not naturally English speaking I won't make the naming suggestions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philnolan3d Posted January 19, 2013 Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 ZBrush would have a small user base if you went by strictly the style of the interface. Actually zbrush's interface is the exact reason I went looking for other software years ago and came across 3D-Brush (3DC). Maybe a two man development team needs some help. I visit Mantis and all I see are bug reports. Where is the wish list? If a consolidated list of the "easy, obvious changes" could appear on Mantis, perhaps their implementation could be expedited. I would really like 3D-Coat "to succeed as a commercial product". It's not exactly easy to find but it's there. If you log into Mantis, click View Issues, then sort it by Severity, you'll see all of the feature requests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor Tony Nemo Posted January 20, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 "Not easy to find" is an understatement. Everything is collected in an unsorted hodgepodge with the occasional "resolved". Presumably, you and Carlosa are more familiar with the layout. The list above seems largely a job of text editing (BTW, with "Move Vertices" changed to "Move Elements" can you retire "Slide Edges"?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor ajz3d Posted January 20, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 "Move Vertices" changed to "Move Elements" can you retire "Slide Edges"?. What do you mean? What's wrong with "Slide Edges"? By the way, where's this "Carcass mesh", you guys talk about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member popwfx Posted January 20, 2013 Advanced Member Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 I hate to say this but Many times I have sat and Worked through Training plans and recorded HOURS of video that is obsolete very quickly and never goes further than the Cutting room. All too often i record pieces and find myself questioning my actions, not because I am unsure of my process but more so because the workflow feels a bit disjointed & confusing. It is now more than ever possible to work through entire projects within 3D-Coat but things (to me at least) still feel clunky and the ergonomics of the application still feel confusing when trying to explain to new users. [EDIT its not that its doesn't work, the rhythm just feels wrong] I'm not trying to be difficult, Really I'm not, but I still feel, that things could be a whole lot better with a little work on consistency and standardizing a few areas. I know its easy for me to say that and consistency is possibly much more than a little work. I agree, there are a non-intuitive things in 3DCoat - even though, overall, following the lead of Photoshop and other applications has been the right choice and makes things easy to understand. For people in graphics there is no other tool more ubiquitous than Photoshop - so following their lead (and hopefully improving on it) is the best idea for new users. The main thing that concerns me about discussions like there are here (and in other forums like the Lightwave forum) is that everyone is an armchair quarterback, looking at the UI from a very narrow perspective. Andrew is so awesome responding to all our needs, that there is a danger that the loudest voices will be the only ones heard. Now, please understand, I do not disagree with anyone's ideas here, however, 3DCoat seems like it is at the point where it really needs a full-time interaction designer. Not just people chiming in and saying - hey this is wrong and make it like this. I've been involved in enough big dev teams to know that having a really talented interaction designer on board, and planning the wireframes and UI interactions - after lots of usability testing, bug reports, and in direct consult with the users is the best way forward to a highly intuitive, very efficient and usable app. The interaction designer (in consult with the devs) should be making these calls. And if they are talented and listen to the customers, they can weed out the "quick-fixes" which add to technical debt and confusion in the app (and wasted $ developing) and lead to a a really, truly awesome application. I realize Pilgway is a small company. But what they have here is so cool, that the investment in a dedicated interaction designer (and this is not a graphic designer who thinks they know UIs) is a good idea. Check out this book for best practices for interaction design if you are interested: http://www.amazon.co...ds=about+face+4 Ok that's my rant over. Hope I did not offend anyone. But using interaction designers is how the big [read: smart] boys play. Ok rant not entirely over, here's one more thing - Pilgway should totally check out the Lean Startup methodologies to keep costs down and deliver excellent stuff the customers want. http://www.amazon.co...n/dp/0307887898 (and no I don't get commissions - this is just great stuff and overlaps with what alot of you are talking about with the product and its comparison to Zbrush in the market) !!Big Issue Right now!! I am seeing HUGE delays when switching tools in not just the retopo room but thoughout 3D-Coat. Yes also this. I have noticed that since v 3.523 (I haven't used every version so I don't know the exact point it changed) that much more delays in switching tools, changing selected layers and visibility of layers has had a big (or at least noticeable) performance hit (at least in the CUDA 64bit GL versions). Hopefully there is something here that can be optimized back to the good old days when the app was snappier on the same hardware. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member unity2k Posted January 20, 2013 Member Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 Yes also this. I have noticed that since v 3.523 (I haven't used every version so I don't know the exact point it changed) that much more delays in switching tools, changing selected layers and visibility of layers has had a big (or at least noticeable) performance hit (at least in the CUDA 64bit GL versions). Hopefully there is something here that can be optimized back to the good old days when the app was snappier on the same hardware. Regarding responsive, I have nothing to compare to as I'm starting out with the 4.0 beta's, but if others are aware of a speed hit, especially with the Cuda 64bit version, I know that the guys at Blender are experiencing some issues. Those devs using the NVidia Cuda Toolkit 4.2 are working with rendering problems with particular series of chipsets on Windows 8 64bit, something about sm_20 or something like that. One of the devs has started using NVidia Cuda Toolkit 5.0 and is not having the same problem, but according to the other devs, there is a speed penalty for using 5.0 they are seeing. If I'm not mistaken, someone said the factor is like 1.18 slower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor ajz3d Posted January 20, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 Has anyone else experienced sudden crashes of 3D Coat without any error report? Mostly when working in Retopo Room. It's like, you work on your model and the next second you gaze at the desktop wondering what the hell has just happened. After that, I have to reload my navigation preset because it resets. Also, view settings (or at least the grid display) seem to go back to default. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member popwfx Posted January 20, 2013 Advanced Member Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 Has anyone else experienced sudden crashes of 3D Coat without any error report? Mostly when working in Retopo Room. It's like, you work on your model and the next second you gaze at the desktop wondering what the hell has just happened. After that, I have to reload my navigation preset because it resets. Also, view settings (or at least the grid display) seem to go back to default. Nope no crashes in beta 10 yet, but you are scaring me, since I'm just about to do a lot of production retopo and my other side by side install of 3.718f is more buggy than 4 now so I've kind of abandoned it. I'd hate to have to install an old version of 3.5x or 3.6x just to get thru this retopo work. Keep us posted about your crashes please and what platform and version are you talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philnolan3d Posted January 20, 2013 Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 What do you mean? What's wrong with "Slide Edges"? By the way, where's this "Carcass mesh", you guys talk about? I agree, Slide Edges is pretty much perfect as it is, I use it all the time. Carcass Resolution is seen any time you load something into the Paint room. Has anyone else experienced sudden crashes of 3D Coat without any error report? Mostly when working in Retopo Room. It's like, you work on your model and the next second you gaze at the desktop wondering what the hell has just happened. After that, I have to reload my navigation preset because it resets. Also, view settings (or at least the grid display) seem to go back to default. I've seen this happen in the past, not much recently though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor digman Posted January 20, 2013 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 I posted a bug report at Mantis a couple of days ago about the Lag problem as stated in an earlier post. If you have any information that would be helpful in fixing this major issue, add it in the note section of the bug report... 0000909 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor Tony Nemo Posted January 20, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 I use "Slide Edges" too, but you can do the same in "Move Vertices (or Elements)" by adjusting your brush size. But I've never tried sliding a whole loop (holding down the control key) using "Move Vertices". Perhaps this would be a step too fiddly so I hereby renounce any change in the default setup. The lag in Retopo lasts about 4 seconds for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor ajz3d Posted January 20, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 Sliding of closed loops is broken. Apart of that, I use Slide Edge quite a lot for some fixes here and there. I agree though, that similar action can be achieved by other tools as well. But that's I think how it is supposed to be. Depending on a situation and personal preferences, tools that people like to use vary. Some will use slide edge, for some move will be enough, and the others might like brushing the area. I like to have several ways of approaching the problem, so I'd lean towards leaving the Slide Edge be. But, if we're discussing "early retirement" of some tools, I think Spin Back might be a nice candidate. It's virtually Spin, but works clockwise. Is it really necessary to have two separate tools that do almost the exact same action? If I were Andrew, I'd consider dropping the Spin Back and, if there really is a need of having a counter spin, add a key modifier to the Spin tool, so for example: - Click on Spin rotates the edge CCW, Shift+Click on Spin rotates it CW. - Or even better - clicking the Spin tool doesn't spin the edge, but enters the "spin mode". Now, if you click on a edge while in this mode, it spins. - Or this: http://3d-coat.com:8...view.php?id=865 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted January 20, 2013 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 Anybody noticing that sometimes UNDO just doesn't work? You can hit it several times and it just does nothing. Been noticing that a lot lately. Doesn't always occur, but it seems that 3D Coat flushes the UNDO (temp?) file sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor ajz3d Posted January 20, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 I think there's a slight problem during retopologisation when two voxel or LC layers are stacked on each other. What I mean by "stacked" is a situation when you have, say a head as one layer and hair voxel/LC painted over them, but as a separate layer. So, they almost touch, but there are some... um... "air bubbles" between them because of differences in the voxel/LC mesh triangle density. Now, the thing is that some tools (Split Rings for example) will keep snapping new vertices to this exemplary head, or said "bubbles" - space between two voxel or LC layers, instead of the outer surface of the voxel/LC mesh. This happens even with "Snap to outer surface" selected. Sometimes it snaps correctly, sometimes I have to fix it with Add Points, Quads or Points/Faces tools after deleting the misplaced faces first. About the undo - I've noticed it too. I think that it registers some "under-the-hood" actions that should be transparent to the user. You know, such as some subroutines of a certain tool the user applies. At least, that's how I explain it to myself. Sometimes, I'm not sure if it's the undo queue that has ended, or I should keep hitting CTRL+Z a couple dozen of times more to reach the history point I need. It's confusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member buexe Posted January 20, 2013 Member Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 Flat Shading with voxels fixed. Yay! That made my day! Thanks 3D coat team! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member bisenberger Posted January 21, 2013 Advanced Member Report Share Posted January 21, 2013 carcass mesh begs for pelt mapping Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member popwfx Posted January 21, 2013 Advanced Member Report Share Posted January 21, 2013 Anybody noticing that sometimes UNDO just doesn't work? You can hit it several times and it just does nothing. Been noticing that a lot lately. Doesn't always occur, but it seems that 3D Coat flushes the UNDO (temp?) file sometimes. I have noticed UNDO undoes too much sometimes. Like I'll create a new layer, paint a stroke, press undo to undo that stroke, and paint a new stroke, and then look up and realize that undo, not only undid the first brush stroke, but also the new layer too, so my second stroke ended up being painted on the layer below - which is really frustrating. And nope I didn't undo twice, there's something weird about undo, I can tell this because redo won't put that new layer back. Though as far as I can tell my undo woes are only around creating new layers and then doing something immediately after that. Haven't noticed undo problems other than that-- well except for the new lag in performance around them and other UI interactions. 3.6 was much snappier than 4 for just about everything. I'm not sure why it's slower now. Though CUDA drivers were mentioned here as a possible culprit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philnolan3d Posted January 21, 2013 Report Share Posted January 21, 2013 I use "Slide Edges" too, but you can do the same in "Move Vertices (or Elements)" by adjusting your brush size. But I've never tried sliding a whole loop (holding down the control key) using "Move Vertices". Perhaps this would be a step too fiddly so I hereby renounce any change in the default setup. The lag in Retopo lasts about 4 seconds for me. Hmm I'm trying it now. can't see how to make Move Vertices just slide edges. I do definitely see the lag in Retopo and I too counted about 3 or 4 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member mercy Posted January 21, 2013 Member Report Share Posted January 21, 2013 [..] 3DCoat seems like it is at the point where it really needs a full-time interaction designer. Not just people chiming in and saying - hey this is wrong and make it like this. [..] That's the main point. I would ask Andrew if the menus, pop-ups are all hardcoded - in the main source code - or he uses some XML or some script to compile the menu windows with all pop-ups and tabs into the source code. Then I would ask Andrew to give me a version of 3D-Coat with the hopefully external User Interface [uI]-configuration files that I can compile into 3DC and freely modify all menu texts windows tabs, their position and order of appearance. I would upload the UI-test version of 3D-Coat here that would only serve to everyone agree on one GOOD interface version with proper naming not the functionality of the tools. Then once ALL agree the new UI is a much better arrangement and naming, send it back to Andrew to integrate the new UI into the newest version of 3DC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member herve_bis Posted January 21, 2013 Advanced Member Report Share Posted January 21, 2013 ALL agree. ?.. this does not exist... h/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member David Schoneveld Posted January 21, 2013 Advanced Member Report Share Posted January 21, 2013 That's the main point. I would ask Andrew if the menus, pop-ups are all hardcoded - in the main source code - or he uses some XML or some script to compile the menu windows with all pop-ups and tabs into the source code. Then I would ask Andrew to give me a version of 3D-Coat with the hopefully external User Interface [uI]-configuration files that I can compile into 3DC and freely modify all menu texts windows tabs, their position and order of appearance. I would upload the UI-test version of 3D-Coat here that would only serve to everyone agree on one GOOD interface version with proper naming not the functionality of the tools. Then once ALL agree the new UI is a much better arrangement and naming, send it back to Andrew to integrate the new UI into the newest version of 3DC. nice idea but in practice everyone agreeing doesn't work in my experience. I could write a ton of information on interface design. I actually work at a company where part of it service is interface design, OOOii granted much of it is fake design for movies but much of it is also real, and even the movies they want practical future UI. It needs design theory that goes from large to small, then everything is implemented based on the design theory. Once people understand the design they will always know where to look for updated features, and new users will be able to learn the software faster. But moving things around could be disastrous too. People hate change, there are many users who have no issue with the UI and aren't represented on the forums, so the design would have to also be based strongly on whats there now. Anyway I'd say the best thing we users can do is build a design document, have a forum and work from there but at the end of the day we implement nothing. Andrew would look at and approve of whatever we convinced him works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor BeatKitano Posted January 21, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted January 21, 2013 Anyway I'd say the best thing we users can do is build a design document, have a forum and work from there but at the end of the day we implement nothing. Andrew would look at and approve of whatever we convinced him works. We tried that. You could argue there was no result because the proposed changes weren't to his liking. Problem is he never manifested his like/dislike... Waste of time maybe ? Anyway you could try, I hope you're more successful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted January 21, 2013 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted January 21, 2013 I submitted a bug report/feature request to have the LOCAL SPACE option in all transform Gizmos....actually work....in the Voxel Sculpting room. It's never worked, and I've had to manually adjust the gizmos. Never complained about it before, because I figured it was probably too hard to get an accurate orientation with all the tris...but it works like a charm (although I had to hassle Andrew quite a bit, in order to get it) in the Retopo Room. By default, when a gizmo is activated (Transform tool, Merge tool, Primitives, Pose tool), it should be at Center Mass. I've asked for this so many times, and yet I am STILL having to click TO CENTER MASS...today. Why? Also, "leave rotated xis" should be active by default. I practically never want 3D Coat to snap orientation back to World Space. Why should I have to keep having to check an option that should be the default behavior?I forget to check it half the time and thus have to spend more time fixing it. Anyhow, surely when checking LOCAL SPACE, 3D Coat can get an average of all the normal vectors of an object and surmise the local axis...No? If you want it to work properly, please add your +1 to the Mantis report. Thanks. http://3d-coat.com/m...view.php?id=913 You can see in the first image, after having to select TO CENTER MASS, one has to orient the gizmo manually....because LOCAL SPACE does not work. In the 2nd image, the transform gizmo is not centered on the (highlighted/selected) object, when the Transform tool is activated. The last image shows what happens when LOCAL SPACE is chosen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member morgan Posted January 22, 2013 Member Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 The clone tool in the paint room is broken,...Im trying to paint on a model using the translation option. When I sample using "cntrl" click and start painting I get nothing or it only paints in random areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Polygoon Posted January 22, 2013 Advanced Member Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 Is "Freezing" in Live Clay tied directly to freezing in polypaint? I am sure that I had it working like this before to contact / expand freezing, but 3D coat just hangs on me right now. Using latest build. All frozen areas applied in LC show in the painting room, so it makes sense. Or is there a way to expand / contract freeze in the LC room. Ctrl + numpad + & Ctrl + numpad - don't seem to work in LC room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member herve_bis Posted January 22, 2013 Advanced Member Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 The clone tool in the paint room is broken,...Im trying to paint on a model using the translation option. When I sample using "cntrl" click and start painting I get nothing or it only paints in random areas. do you have a voxel object in the voxel room...? try to hide it... and then re-try the clone tool... h/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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