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V4.1 BETA (experimental 4.1.17D)


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Don't you see Andrew, this is exactly what I mean, The latest version that you need to download to hopefully have the bugs resolved from the previous builds also has new tools in it which invariably have bugs in them, you have to stop releasing builds with new features/tools, and concentrate on releasing bug fix builds so that we know that we are downloading an updated version with bug fixes. If you have a tool which doesn't perform the task which it was meant to then don't release it until it does.

I for one don't have the time to be a beta tester, but with every build you release I feel that I am.

I think that you are a very talented programmer and the work that you have achieved by your self is quite incredible, but you have to understand the mindset of the artist which is using your software, they are like regular people who, say purchase a car, they don't want to be a mechanic and fix any problems the car might have, and they don't want to keep constantly driving it back the the car lot to get problems fixed, they just want to drive the car to work and back and do the shopping and know that it will perform these functions day in day out.

T.

I agree with this, for the most part. This is why every other software developer uses a different approach. They do Beta Testing internally. It does get frustrating as can be to have bugs constantly introduced and making things that once worked fine, now very problematic. With this industry being so deadline oriented, many will try 3D Coat out of curiosity > run into a bunch of bugs and walk away. Even long time users here get frustrated with this BETA approach. What's inherently wrong with it, is that bug-fixes are mixed in with hew features and thus there almost never is a stable release. In order to get your bug fixed, you take on new features that introduce new bugs...not only to these new features, themselves, but they cause issues with other parts of the app.

At the very least, there should ONLY be Bug-fixing builds (Service Packs) and separate NEW FEATURE builds. Mixing them together is like giving your child cough medicine with a dirty spoon.

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I understand BeatKitano 100%. Sometimes frustration reaches other galaxies ;) I'm wondering if this brushing bugs is somehow related to tablet driver. Anyone tested other tablets than Wacom ones? Sometimes it feels like 3DCoat miss level of pressure given from pen. Same thing happened with bug that puts 100% of pressure when you touch surface first time.

+1. I was just about to say that the (sometimes) lumpiness in simple brushes is nerve-wrecking. But I have noticed some oddities with the Wacom drivers (Win 8) outside of 3D Coat, too. I've noticed some random, unexplainable lag even navigating a web browser. As soon as I jump to using a mouse, the behavior appears to go away. Go back to using a Wacom tablet, and it starts occurring again. So, I know for a fact there are some issues with Wacom tablets and Win 8 (even with the latest drivers). Whether it causes problems with 3D Coat's brushing, I don't know. But I sure would like to get to the bottom of it. I think it is a little bit of both. When I notice lumpiness, I switch to a mouse and it seems to occur there as well.

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Don't worry Andrew, that wow is my last you can now enjoy consensual critic to be confortable and do an half assed work.

BEAT;you are essencially a ......

why after saying goodbye are you still around?

it would be a pleasure to me if you go ,,,,,,,,

Edited by moska
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Ok, done some refinements today. After deeper tesats I will post it to community, maybe tomorrow or aftertomorrow. That is what done:

- little normals sampling stabilization (close to direction stabilization)

- fading depth for slow motion with Buildup enabled

- more accurate normals sampling for all clay-like brushes

- LC made less bumpy with buildup and generally made close to clay brush

- waves problem fixed (now normal is'nt recalculated on each middle point but interpolated)

- fixed possible holes and bad areas appearing problem

Generally all changes directed to decrease lumpiness as much as possible.

Pay attention that buildup does not like big depth because it calculates base plane using deformed surface. So buildup will work better with not harsh surface deformations.

And please, war ended. I got my frustration doze as well, now time to move forward :)

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Hey please

personal aggravation NOT ALLOWED here

please edit post and keep.

------------------------------------------------

Here:

Every participant agrees to respect the thought, ideas, comments and opinions of each person

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I plan to polish brush engine several days more. I hope to bring it to better state and this time any feedback regarding reason of any brushing problems especially important. After that I should switch to other tasks (see requests above regarding paint room for example) and point may be lost.

Oh please let it be so. 3DCoats paint room would be sooo much better with just a handful of changes. If you wanted to be particularly nice about it, here's 10 issues that could really stand some attention (including the three in my sig);

1. Paint Past UV shells : http://3d-coat.com/mantis/view.php?id=705

2. Import/Export layer visibility : http://3d-coat.com/mantis/view.php?id=1142

3. Import layer opacity : http://3d-coat.com/mantis/view.php?id=1135

4. Fix export of 'Add' layer blening mode : http://3d-coat.com/mantis/view.php?id=1182

5. Fix import/export of 'Subtract' layer blening mode : http://3d-coat.com/mantis/view.php?id=1134

6. Layer groups : http://3d-coat.com/mantis/view.php?id=26

7. Improve the existing Hide tool in Paint Room : http://3d-coat.com/mantis/view.php?id=151

8. Make palettes useable with a tablet : http://3d-coat.com/mantis/view.php?id=1159

9. Ability to cyle through layer blending modes : http://3d-coat.com/mantis/view.php?id=1131

10. Ability to toggle on/off texture tiling: http://3d-coat.com/mantis/view.php?id=1166

Edited by PolyHertz
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Andrew's quote: "And please, war ended. I got my frustration doze as well, now time to move forward"

Yes, moving on now...

If possible include the new brush refinements of today in the Linux version that will be released. I rather wait another day or two for them to complied into the linux code. Thanks...

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Ok, done some refinements today. After deeper tesats I will post it to community, maybe tomorrow or aftertomorrow. That is what done:

- little normals sampling stabilization (close to direction stabilization)

- fading depth for slow motion with Buildup enabled

- more accurate normals sampling for all clay-like brushes

- LC made less bumpy with buildup and generally made close to clay brush

- waves problem fixed (now normal is'nt recalculated on each middle point but interpolated)

- fixed possible holes and bad areas appearing problem

Generally all changes directed to decrease lumpiness as much as possible.

Pay attention that buildup does not like big depth because it calculates base plane using deformed surface. So buildup will work better with not harsh surface deformations.

And please, war ended. I got my frustration doze as well, now time to move forward :)

Thanks Andrew. There still is one glaring flaw in a newly released feature. Was even mentioned in a tutorial (8:45 mark):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4F9k_yEGVQ

These features should be given a little more thought and testing before going out onto the showroom floor, so to speak. There should be a level or two of internal testing before you rush it out the door and hand it to the public for their testing.

This is what Tser and BeatKitno were talking about. The public is being used as the initial testers and that should not be the case. There should be 2 levels/layers of testing in-house, first. The feature mentioned here is the DELETE ALL PAINT LAYERS. It is NOT deleting all the paint layers. It's clearing all the paint data and leaving trash layers, as it were. Not good. The best solution is to simply allow multiple selections of layers > Delete. That's been a major missing feature since the very beginning.

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Ok, I am just a customer, but really it is too hard to hear that I'm the bad guy after month of pleading and lots of threads about improvement on a software to promised so much but never delivered.

See what I did here ?

Don't worry Andrew, that wow is my last you can now enjoy consensual critic to be confortable and do an half assed work. Too bad, I had great hope for this software. But you added useless things to appeal to a certain crowd, doing so you destroyed your nice STANDARD UI, and to top it all the general feeling is terrible.

What a sniveling self righteous rant! Apparently, only YOUR concerns are valid and any work that others appreciate is meaningless.

Your comments about "You blew it." and "good luck your gonna need it" seems to strike as "I have disapproved and now you will no longer exist!"

Why dont you just beat it already? Oh thats right... Everybody owes you something and we should all read your repeated distasteful remarks at someone you dont really know?

I think better said is: "Hey, good luck to YOU, with that terrible attitude"........... Beat it.

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About triangles and diagonals

This example was done using Draw and Extrude in sculpt mode

Both have crossed diagonals that DONT MATTER the brush direction

this means, it DOESNT change the diagonals direction

NO REDRAW

so every new action amplify the distorted topology

Question

Why sculpt or voxel mode triangulate the base mesh ?

Is there any way to work WITHOUT triangles ?

from my point of view, to work with triangles is the base of topology nightmares.

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What a sniveling self righteous rant! Apparently, only YOUR concerns are valid and any work that others appreciate is meaningless.

Your comments about "You blew it." and "good luck your gonna need it" seems to strike as "I have disapproved and now you will no longer exist!"

Why dont you just beat it already? Oh thats right... Everybody owes you something and we should all read your repeated distasteful remarks at someone you dont really know?

I think better said is: "Hey, good luck to YOU, with that terrible attitude"........... Beat it.

Next time do that in private, because no one care about what we the think of each other, and that's much easier to not show my snivelling self righteous rants here as responses.

Unless your into public shaming too, in that case that makes us family right?

On a side note: I'm amazed at the attitude of some of the new members here, I've spoken without filters to Andrew, which I normaly never do because I'm not a conflict guy and don't want to hurt people, ang being judged by people who don't even know me and what I did here is something entirely new...

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Come on guys. Let's keep the personal stuff to ourselves, or do it in private. There are much better things that can be done with that time and energy.

Any further off topic discussions will be dealt with swiftly.

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Note to ALL

There is a thread named

V4 BETA (experimental)

http://3d-coat.com/forum/index.php?showforum=16

please use it for future BETA TEST RELEASES

ty

3D-Coat is always in beta. Before the official release of Version 4, all of the builds we downloaded were beta. The builds we are downloading now are also beta. There is no difference.

All of it is labeled as Version 4 (both before and after the official release). None of the Version 4 builds were labeled as STABLE (both before and after the official release).

So why bother separating all of the beta builds into two different threads?

I think it is ok that 3D-Coat is always in beta. I always just use the latest beta version that I downloaded, and if something doesn't work, then I use the beta version I downloaded before that.

I think the "always in beta" method is better than having a "stable" version. For example, I encountered a bug in Autodesk Mudbox 2013 that made it unusable for me. I installed all of the Service Packs and the problem was not resolved. The bug was reported to Autodesk. Nothing happened. No response. End of story. Recently I encountered a bug in 3D-Coat. I reported it on Mantis. Andrew fixed the bug in a few days. I downloaded the new version. Problem solved. This makes me feel like "always in beta" is better than being stuck with a buggy "stable" version with no solution ever coming.

Shouldn't we just accept that 3D-Coat is always in beta? If you get a beta that is too buggy, then just use the previous beta. Most likely that "beta" is the most "stable" one that exists.

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On a different note, regarding the new build-up brushes in 3D-Coat:

One of the main reasons I still use Zbrush is because of it's "Clay Build-Up" brush. In my opinion, it is the probably the best sculpting brush ever made. I like it more than any sculpting brush in Mudbox, Sculptris, or 3D-Coat. I know that many other 3D artists feel the same way.

I really really hope users like Artman and JoseConseco can work together with Andrew to make a build-up brush in 3D-Coat that is identical to the "Clay Build-Up" brush in Zbrush. In fact, thank you to ALL the users who are contributing to help make this a reality!

Edited by TimmyZDesign
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That's a way of thinking. I agree with the never-ending beta in someway.

But It doesn't help to focus on the important milestones and makes it hard to define priorities, no?

+ Developer probably need to have a break after releasing a stable version; just to reload

their battery :)

If you are constantly trying to fix problems, you could lose the vision of the whole stuff.

Trying to release a stable version doesn't seem that bad to me.

It brings a stable base to construct future versions too.

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On a different note, regarding the new build-up brushes in 3D-Coat:

One of the main reasons I still use Zbrush is because of it's "Clay Build-Up" brush. In my opinion, it is the probably the best sculpting brush ever made. I like it more than any sculpting brush in Mudbox, Sculptris, or 3D-Coat. I know that many other 3D artists feel the same way.

I really really hope users like Artman and JoseConseco can work together with Andrew to make a build-up brush in 3D-Coat that is identical to the "Clay Build-Up" brush in Zbrush. In fact, thank you to ALL the users who are contributing to help make this a reality!

Try Artman's ClaySoft Preset...and check "Buildup" in the Toolbar. I think I just found my favorite new brush. Prior to now, I always used the BUILD brush in Voxels with the 2nd draw mode in the Epanel, but it doesn't even compare. And the new Angulator brush is rather simple, but it fixes one major gripe about creating sharp edges...recently raised on this forum. Others can fuss all they want, but I'm a pretty happy camper, now. :D

http://3d-coat.com/download/3dcpack/file-details/?tx_neofileshare_pi5[uid]=23&tx_neofileshare_pi5[cat]=1

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On a different note, regarding the new build-up brushes in 3D-Coat:

One of the main reasons I still use Zbrush is because of it's "Clay Build-Up" brush. In my opinion, it is the probably the best sculpting brush ever made. I like it more than any sculpting brush in Mudbox, Sculptris, or 3D-Coat. I know that many other 3D artists feel the same way.

I really really hope users like Artman and JoseConseco can work together with Andrew to make a build-up brush in 3D-Coat that is identical to the "Clay Build-Up" brush in Zbrush. In fact, thank you to ALL the users who are contributing to help make this a reality!

I absolutely agree, the clay buildup brush in ZBrush is my all time favourite, if 3DCoat had this (exactly the same), then we would be in business, I use it, along with dynamesh, to very quickly create concepts out of simple objects like a sphere, within a few minutes I can knock up a bust or an alien or a weapon. I cannot do this yet with 3DCoat and forget mudbox. I use this brush as you would rough out a sketch on paper with a charcoal or chalk, I don't just do one stroke at a time, I move the brush strokes back and forth building up as I go along or removing with the alt key and don't keep releasing the button after each stroke.

T.

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Try Artman's ClaySoft Preset...and check "Buildup" in the Toolbar. I think I just found my favorite new brush. Prior to now, I always used the BUILD brush in Voxels with the 2nd draw mode in the Epanel, but it doesn't even compare. And the new Angulator brush is rather simple, but it fixes one major gripe about creating sharp edges...recently raised on this forum. Others can fuss all they want, but I'm a pretty happy camper, now. :D

http://3d-coat.com/download/3dcpack/file-details/?tx_neofileshare_pi5[uid]=23&tx_neofileshare_pi5[cat]=1

+1, Very nice brush !

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I think you guys will like new build and new presets ,I updated nearly all brushes.. :)

note:

I deleted the old presets please dont download the ones from main site too.

I will post next ones along next build.

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sorry: wall of text

Thinking the software like service, 3DCoat is always in development and bugfixing. 3D-Coat is always in "beta"... if you think like Autodesk or Adobe or name-it-here paradigm.

Blender, Gimp, Krita... all this software have stable and experimental releases. Experimental releases free for any user to download and try.

So... We need to be clear about 2 stages of development work

time for development <----------> time for stabilization / refinement

- Developmen stage: new tools/adds -the inner engine code-

- Refinemen stage: how the users interact with the software code

------------------------------------

Let me use ZBrush like example

The BIG difference is... ZB dont offer the beta experimental releases to public

-is named Beta (experimental) thread here-.

They only offer to upgrade to the polished stable version

-Current stable version thread-

Why we cant do the same at this moment ?

Pixologic have 25 dev team working in the software with a closed beta testers group. We cant compete with this task force.

We need the community to continue testing and approving the changes. Andrew and the community are a team and we need to work together. Like it hate it... but a TEAM.

Andrew is a pure creative source of development, he cant stop adding new features. Until now.

Finally with the V4 release all we need to stop with this development stage- adding more and more tools-, and understand that a new stage is born:

- REFINEMENT STAGE - how the users interact with the software code,

Surely V4_5 will be the last stable version for 2-3 months.

We need to work in bugfixing and refinement -UI, name convention, workflow yadayada-

AND

WE NEED A ROADMAP

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Sorry, You were probably talking about the "build" brush.

I thought that your brushes would be integrated in the next 3dC build...

My bad.

No I will upload presets as a file... :) Maybe later bundled in build.

But lol I still don't understand your question :"Finaly it was ok to use yours

directly as default?"

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There was a talk a long time ago, about using your brush presets as the

default one in 3dCoat. I thought that it was finally done :)

Sorry, I sometime misunderstand comments because of my

very average language skills in English (and a rotten brain).

I'm waiting your new brushes impatiently!

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