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V4.1 BETA (experimental 4.1.17D)


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@AbnRanger

 

Well that means you're using a voxel mesh as a base. This is what I meant by unprepared mesh. Voxel cages are not relaxed by default that's why we have a clean surface option. If you use a surface startup sphere it's perfect and you won't get that.

 

 

 

 

@Carlosan

 

You're welcome, and yeah smoothing option can help in your case as it averages the outer radius of the stroke. I like to play with it myself when playing with high contrast density areas.

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@AbnRanger

 

Well that means you're using a voxel mesh as a base. This is what I meant by unprepared mesh. Voxel cages are not relaxed by default that's why we have a clean surface option. If you use a surface startup sphere it's perfect and you won't get that.

 

@Carlosan

 

You're welcome, and yeah smoothing option can help in your case as it averages the outer radius of the stroke. I like to play with it myself when playing with high contrast density areas.

If you work on the humanoid figure from the splash screen (Surface mode sculpting), it happens...same thing on the Mannequin and even a sphere. This was not occurring prior to the last 2-3 builds. And new users shouldn't be running into this problem starting right out of the gate. This will turn a LOT of people off to 3D Coat without ever giving all the other features a try

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may be a pop up windows asking an option -yes or not- to clean surface, when users switch from voxel mode to sculpt mode will help ?

 

0001235: Before change sculpt modes, ask user to clean surface first

http://3d-coat.com/mantis/view.php?id=1235

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I'm sorry AbnRanger but what you describe has been there for a loooong time.

Maybe something Andrew did to the brush aggravated the result (but honestly it's not worse than it was before on my side).

The problem is that the default topology of those models is made for voxel mode, it's terrible for surface mode (it works without those effects on a prepared mesh, the default surface sphere is perfectly fine: it's the prepared mesh of previous post !), if Andrew integrated "cleaned up" meshes for surface mode we wouldn't have this conversation.

 

Just look at the topology (second picture) it's a mess !

 

All those issue arise because of ONE thing: there's no clear cut between voxel mode and surface+removestretching/lc.

If there was two rooms people would get the whole "different medium" gig. Right now people don't even get the deal with pressing "enter" to revoxelize in surface mode and when they do they don't understand why they lost all their details from surface brushes with the different resolution at play...

 

Most of them want to try the famous lc brushes but don't know how to move to surface mode. It's even more confusing as you have surface brushes in voxel mode... and the two process are under the "voxel" room (*sigh*).

 

:/

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Its an old preset and should not be used in current build...I've trashed it for quite some times now.

Imo its pretty bad...compared to my actual clay presets.

 

aha, I thought it was probably an error on my part lol!

 

Yeah I have your old presets installed, for some reason I assumed they were overwritten with the new build but it makes more sense that they would still be around as part of my local config. See this is why I made the request to have presets organizable into folders instead of one big list :wacko: http://3d-coat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=14579

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I'm sorry AbnRanger but what you describe has been there for a loooong time.

Maybe something Andrew did to the brush aggravated the result (but honestly it's not worse than it was before on my side).

The problem is that the default topology of those models is made for voxel mode, it's terrible for surface mode (it works without those effects on a prepared mesh, the default surface sphere is perfectly fine: it's the prepared mesh of previous post !), if Andrew integrated "cleaned up" meshes for surface mode we wouldn't have this conversation.

 

Just look at the topology (second picture) it's a mess !

 

All those issue arise because of ONE thing: there's no clear cut between voxel mode and surface+removestretching/lc.

If there was two rooms people would get the whole "different medium" gig. Right now people don't even get the deal with pressing "enter" to revoxelize in surface mode and when they do they don't understand why they lost all their details from surface brushes with the different resolution at play...

 

Most of them want to try the famous lc brushes but don't know how to move to surface mode. It's even more confusing as you have surface brushes in voxel mode... and the two process are under the "voxel" room (*sigh*).

 

:/

I told Andrew about this recently. The Surface mode brushes in the voxel tool panel is really hard for me to explain in tutorials, so it would have to be hard to understand for a new user. I sent Andrew a video showing this problem, and it just isn't going to cut it, in it's current state. All the default objects from that Splash screen, under Surface Mode, should be pointing to cleaned up meshes, then. And any time a user switches from Voxel to Surface mode, a Smooth routine should be run, to optimize the mesh just for Surface mode sculpting.

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I agree, now the question is:

 

Is it possible to optimize the mesh for surface mode without visibly altering it's shape/details (currently clean surface IS visibly altering the sculpt)? That's why I'm not entirely convinced by the idea of having the two processes under the same "room" (don't think I like more rooms, the simpler the better but there...).

 

If it's possible, then do it without asking the user. Because like I said in Carlosan proposal: if it interrupts the workflow it's bad, in the past I was revoxelizing very often (no removestretching) and having that kind of nagging dialog would have killed me (that's why the FIRST switch dialog is seen only once: we firmly asked for this with LJB to avoid annoying the user).

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@ Beat, Yes you can reorder the mesh for better working in surface mode / LC mode.

 

The voxel mesh when converted to surface mode still has the triangles arranged in the voxel triangle layout still.

I used the smooth all tool at the bottom of the left toolbar to correct the triangle layout.

I choose Tangent Smoothing and smoothing degree between 1.00 and 2.00 depending upon the model.

This really just relaxes the mesh and makes it ready for surface and LC work.

 

The picture shows the difference.

Left side is a untouched voxel model converted to surface mode then using the build brush with remove stretching disabled. You can see swirling effect...

Right side is on a voxel model converted to surface mode but after I used the smooth all tool before any brushing and then used the same build brush on the surface mesh...  No problems now...

 

Of course if you kept brushing with no remove stretching disabled, you would really stretch the polygons but I used it to clearly show the effect...

 

The smooth all tool not might appear to change the mesh very much in triangle order but it has changed the triangle structure.

It keeps details very well too...

 

A automatic conversion to a surface mode triangle structure when switching from voxel to surface mode would be better and one that keeps the details.

post-518-0-02812100-1374328401_thumb.png

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Right digman, for a power user :)

 

For a newbie it's gibberish and 3dcoat is crap (don't look at me like that, I see students every week ^^). Besides your solution is like you say "depending upon the model".

What we need is a process transparent to the user or at the very least something so "obvious" the user will trigger it manualy and easily manage to set it right for HIS model :)

Right now it's everything but obvious. 

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I agree, now the question is:

 

Is it possible to optimize the mesh for surface mode without visibly altering it's shape/details (currently clean surface IS visibly altering the sculpt)? That's why I'm not entirely convinced by the idea of having the two processes under the same "room" (don't think I like more rooms, the simpler the better but there...).

Resample is the cleaning tool par exellence...it also get rids on seft-intersections.

To keep details just set very polygon value then use Decimate tool afterward. Liveclay has no problem working on decimated meshes.

Anyway, people should jump in sf mode as early as 300k in my opinion as a sculptor.

The" use LC/Sf mode to add fine details only "is uber obsolete workflow imo.

Personnaly I only use Voxel mode for booleans.

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I already asked Andrew that...he said its not easy to do.

If Andrew says it's not easy then I trust that it's pretty difficult... It would be a nice touch to the polish of the program though. Providing consistency across the different storage panels/bins. Maybe I'm just anally retentive.

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Resample is the cleaning tool par exellence...it also get rids on seft-intersections.

To keep details just set very polygon value then use Decimate tool afterward. Liveclay has no problem working on decimated meshes.

Anyway, people should jump in sf mode as early as 300k in my opinion as a sculptor.

The" use LC/Sf mode to add fine details only "is uber obsolete workflow imo.

I only use Voxel mode for booleans.

 

That's the thing here: we're not talking about liveclay users. Liveclay users have no problem whatsoever because the brushes do the "cleanup" on every stroke.

 

As for the rest: I'm a nazi (ahah) I would simply ditch voxel mode, it's slow and pretty much everything can be done in surface mode now, and it's only a matter of time before Andrew add the missing pieces in surface mode... 

But I'm all for simplification of workflow these days, Andrew and you did wonder in surface mode there's no competition now I don't understand why Andrew should still drag this old ball which is the voxel mode.

I'm warning: this is my opinion, I don't intend to start a debate on this, I respect people who find solace in the voxel mode, it's just I don't. :)

I mean it's awesome for early shape building but that's all, no point fighting with the limitations of voxels when surface mode can do the rest better and quicker .

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Right digman, for a power user :)

 

For a newbie it's gibberish and 3dcoat is crap (don't look at me like that, I see students every week ^^). Besides your solution is like you say "depending upon the model".

What we need is a process transparent to the user or at the very least something so "obvious" the user will trigger it manualy and easily manage to set it right for HIS model :)

Right now it's everything but obvious. 

Yes, that is what I said an automatic conversation would be better, Oh yeah, you might not have seen that when you first read my post as I was in the process of editing it... I discovered the smooth all tool solution by trial and error and no new user should have to do solution hunting. I only stated as it is now possible, that is all.  :D

 

I do have to disagree with voxel mode being outdated. No please do not ditch voxel mode...

 

Voxel mode is still very much in game... This model is only 80,000 voxels so far, so it is fast, fast... Now sure high details are better for surface and LC work

I start nearly all my work first in voxel mode and I do not have to think about surface mode brushes, LC brushes or remove stretching. Just plain old straight forward work with 8 preset voxel brushes...

post-518-0-89028900-1374330348_thumb.png

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That's the thing here: we're not talking about liveclay users. Liveclay users have no problem whatsoever because the brushes do the "cleanup" on every stroke.

 

As for the rest: I'm a nazi (ahah) I would simply ditch voxel mode, it's slow and pretty much everything can be done in surface mode now, and it's only a matter of time before Andrew add the missing pieces in surface mode... 

But I'm all for simplification of workflow these days, Andrew and you did wonder in surface mode there's no competition now I don't understand why Andrew should still drag this old ball which is the voxel mode.

I'm warning: this is my opinion, I don't intend to start a debate on this, I respect people who find solace in the voxel mode, it's just I don't. :)

I mean it's awesome for early shape building but that's all, no point fighting with the limitations of voxels when surface mode can do the rest better and quicker .

I am starting to agree with this more and more....but that's simply because Andrew has focused almost exclusively on Surface mode tools, in the past 2yrs. It has gotten all the attention, and without him recompiling CUDA for 3D Coat and updating the Voxel brushes to mirror those in Surface, then Surface will seem superior. But voxels are STILL more flexible, forgiving, and much faster when you need to do boolean work and merge objects together. Just the other day I was trying to merge a head that I had done some LiveClay work on, with the body, and it took so long just to merge (Single-threaded...no wonder. Everything single-threaded in 3D Coat is horribly slow, it seems), I had to kill the app and restart. This time I had to convert the objects to voxels just to merge them together in a timely fashion. Surface mode sucks for this kind of task.

 

I also think Voxel Mode literally feels like you're working on real clay. The surface mode brushes feel nice now...but again, that's because they've been given the attention. Voxel brushes have languished.

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Please keep in mind that not everyone uses Surface mode, so if you're planning on putting smooth in Surface mode, then I'm now switching back and forth for something I almost never have to do, as it is now.  I spend 90% of my time in Voxel mode.

 

I see advantages of both modes, so I like having the options.  I would like the ability to switch back and forth without added artifacts, but this only occurs for me rarely.

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I am starting to agree with this more and more....but that's simply because Andrew has focused almost exclusively on Surface mode tools, in the past 2yrs. It has gotten all the attention, and without him recompiling CUDA for 3D Coat and updating the Voxel brushes to mirror those in Surface, then Surface will seem superior. But voxels are STILL more flexible, forgiving, and much faster when you need to do boolean work and merge objects together. Just the other day I was trying to merge a head that I had done some LiveClay work on, with the body, and it took so long just to merge (Single-threaded...no wonder. Everything single-threaded in 3D Coat is horribly slow, it seems), I had to kill the app and restart. This time I had to convert the objects to voxels just to merge them together in a timely fashion. Surface mode sucks for this kind of task.

 

I also think Voxel Mode literally feels like you're working on real clay. The surface mode brushes feel nice now...but again, that's because they've been given the attention. Voxel brushes have languished.

 

I agree surface sculpt got all the attention (I even feel bad for whining the other day and seing Polyhertz trying to speak his piece on the paint room on which I very much agree btw), but there's still some limitations to voxel, even if Andrew manage to speed up voxel mode:

 

Crease/pinch: no can do, voxels don't allow "density changes", so creasing is merely saying "i want an angle here", same goes for pinch.

That alone is a no go (for me) since you can get fine "details" without cranking the res to very high numbers (pressuring your system with very little gain compared to surface mode). And when I say "fine details", I could simply say "solid crips creasing/pinching on a medium res model".

 

But I must also admit that voxel mode is much more reliable regarding booleans ops, and some brushes there really flow, it's different to work with this mode it's nice too (unfortunately it often gets ruined by artefacts sticking out of the mesh randomly)

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Please keep in mind that not everyone uses Surface mode, so if you're planning on putting smooth in Surface mode, then I'm now switching back and forth for something I almost never have to do, as it is now.  I spend 90% of my time in Voxel mode.

 

I see advantages of both modes, so I like having the options.  I would like the ability to switch back and forth without added artifacts, but this only occurs for me rarely.

 

No one asked anything about changing the habits on one "side" or another. The two system can cohexists like they did for a few years now, they just need to fix their boundary and take action to make transitions smooth for those who want to cross over.

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That's the thing here: we're not talking about liveclay users. Liveclay users have no problem whatsoever because the brushes do the "cleanup" on every stroke.

 

I thought you were asking of a way to prepare a voxel mesh to go into surface mode without loosing details using "Clean surface".

 

About voxel mode:

It is still essential to some workflows which i dont use and still very powerfuland relevant if you use it at the right stage or for doing some specific stuff.

I would never do booleans in surface mode or use toothpaste or snake brush in surface mode,its too picky on selft-intersection.

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No one asked anything about changing the habits on one "side" or another. The two system can cohexists like they did for a few years now, they just need to fix their boundary and take action to make transitions smooth for those who want to cross over.

I guess I don't see a lot of complaining from people about a confusion over the brushes in one mode vs another.  It tends to focus on why you have two modes to begin with and how to get from room to room.

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alvordr, on that one I'll say: If you don't see people complaining about the confusing aspect of voxel/surface mode it means you've not been here long enough.

It's there, it's not in the face but put a new user in front of the software, no explanation, you'll see how long it'll take them to get to surface mode.

Now I agree, sometimes you just want to scream a "RTFM"... but hey, some people really hate to read.

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You see that's that kind of behaviour I've a hard time dealing with. If you get the inner working quickly good for you. But everyone doesn't get to understand software as quickly. Thinking about others is nice too :/

I mean, most of the proposal I do here (with the exception of my nazi moment with voxels here) is geared toward new users. I'm not a newbie (or at least I like to think so), I'm not trying to get things forward for myself, 

but to help other new users get quickly into the nice wagon which is 3dc.

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Here is a picture of the difference of a voxel mesh structure in surface mode before and after using the smooth all tool with tangent smoothing... You can see how the mesh gets reordered better for surface mode work.

 

This is refering to my post on page 108, post number 2158

 

Again, an automatic reordering of our voxel mesh to a surface mesh triangle structure that keeps the details would be ideal...

 

Choose a surface mode primitive sphere and see how the structure is beautifully layout for surface/LC work

 

The smooth all tool does not create that kind of mesh but I think Andrew could come up with a routine that would convert our mesh voxels to surface mode that would be fairly decent and keep the details...

post-518-0-96927600-1374332054_thumb.jpg

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I thought you were asking of a way to prepare a voxel mesh to go into surface mode without loosing details using "Clean surface".

 

About voxel mode:

It is still essential to some workflows which i dont use and still very powerfuland relevant if you use it at the right stage or for doing some specific stuff.

I would never do booleans in surface mode or use toothpaste or snake brush in surface mode,its too picky on selft-intersection.

The initial thought was for people like AbnRanger who don't want to use removestretching or liveclay brushes. But yeah it works for everyone too, sorry for not being very clear :)

 

Voxel: I know, there's probably workflow I didn't even imagine were possible with voxels, it was the "what would I do if I was Andrew" moment. Not asking for it though (too much work ahah).

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