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V4.1 BETA (experimental 4.1.17D)


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No news?

On what...the Cut and Clone tool, or the Auto-Retopo improvements? When I talked to him last, I suggested that he take his time on this, and not feel rushed to crank something out, like he normally does. The reason being that 3D Coat can carve a niche for itself as the "Go To" app for "Reverse Modeling," which is still a relatively new (modeling) paradigm. Model in Clay instead of getting bogged down in topology issues (piddling with verts, edges and polys) during construction. A butt-kicking Auto-Retopology toolset will help make this new paradigm more and more popular. I don't think it has really gained much of a foothold in the industry, yet, because it can seem like you are doing twice the amount of work.

 

Being able to Auto-Retopologize most of your work removes that concern, to a large degree. If he also implements some of the Retopo feature requests I submitted on Mantis, months ago, then that would make the Retopo Room much more powerful and a more feasible environment for conventional poly modeling. So, with that in mind, I hope he takes as long as he needs...even if it means months of silence. He did say it was very complex.

Edited by AbnRanger
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This is going to be the most important single update I've ever seen. It's looking like it's going to be incredible.

 

 

And yes now that we have version 4 I hope he takes his sweet time to bring this to completion in a perfect manner.

Edited by L'Ancien Regime
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I am really looking forward to the next update too but I am also happy to wait for it.

The Auto-Retopo improvements look so good that it almost makes me feel like waiting until it is here before moving to the next stage with a few of my models.

 

It is always best to work with what you have though and I find manually retopoing (that a word?) quite therapeutic and relaxing (although quite time consuming)

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I just check for updates each day in hopes that, once he's -done- with this round of updates to sculpting and retopology, there will finally be some major improvements to the painting room. I expect a very long wait though.

I'm definitely OK with the Paint Room as it is, now. Sure, some of the requested changes to the layers structure and all, sound good...but they wouldn't speed my workflow up that much. Nevertheless, it would be nice for the Paint Room to finally get a little attention, though...seeing that most of the focus has been in the Voxel and Retopo Rooms the past 3-4yrs.

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Overall I really like the paint room, in fact I'd say its my favorit 3D paint app out there for simple lowpoly stuff.

But for production purposes on more complex assets the layers system just lacks too much. It needs layer groups (the most requested feature on Mantis btw), and masks that're compatible with other painting apps. Unwanted brush strokes are a big issue too that can happen in multiple ways (clicking in the 3DC window to make it active, single strokes crossing multiple open viewports). Speed wise, I transfer layers to Photoshop sometimes just so as to flip through blending modes faster, and the opacity slider is currently useless because it floods the undo stack. Here's a thread about the main issues I think are holding back the paint room from a while ago: http://3d-coat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1479

Edited by PolyHertz
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I'm definitely OK with the Paint Room as it is, now. Sure, some of the requested changes to the layers structure and all, sound good...but they wouldn't speed my workflow up that much. Nevertheless, it would be nice for the Paint Room to finally get a little attention, though...seeing that most of the focus has been in the Voxel and Retopo Rooms the past 3-4yrs.

you are absolutely right!

Paint Room really needs attention

 

+100

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Paint Room is Andrew next milestone in 3DC roadmap

 

1st retopo

may be some UV room tweaks

in middle Raul refining LC

and then Paint room

 

i duno why no tweeter, no mantis, no post here and no mail reply.

May be personal life need his full attention.

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You know last time I really used Autopo it just didn't work out and I had to hand topologize a rather complex mesh (Let me tell you that was an excruciating ordeal. Never again!). I recently went back to that mesh and the terrible maps I got out of it to do some new renders and it was garbage so I thought that I would try an autopo with the new version Andrew is coming out with . Just out of curiosity I thought I'd give 06A a spin.. I took it up to 110k polys which was well under 5 minutes. This is the result. I think that's an outstanding result for just straight up Autopo with edge loops and no selection for details or self imposed edge loops. The non edge loop output didn't look anywhere near as good.

 

http://i.imgur.com/XIZiV2l.jpg

 

110k

 

http://i.imgur.com/hUuto50.jpg

 

90k

 

This would have been impossible a couple years ago.

 

So autopo is already really really good. Just imagine how fine it'll be on this next release.

Edited by L'Ancien Regime
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I have many ideas that I want to script into 3D Coat in order to boost my workflow, but I'd rather prefer Python instead of AngelScript. And, from what I've read, scripting implementation is still incomplete. It still doesn't accept user's input, am I right?

 

Where is AngelScript used besides 3D Coat anyway? Python is everywhere in the 3D World: Maya, Houdini, MARI, Blender. What the hell? Why some obscure AngelScript??? :blink:

 

Kreatorze, in order to alter current tools you'd need a 3D Coat SDK, a source code, or scripts (if 3D Coat's tools were scripted like some of Maya's). None of such has been released to the public yet. Correct me if I'm wrong of course. :unsure:

Edited by ajz3d
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I have many ideas that I want to script into 3D Coat in order to boost my workflow, but I'd rather prefer Python instead of AngelScript. And, from what I've read, scripting implementation is still incomplete. It still doesn't accept user's input, am I right?

 

Where is AngelScript used besides 3D Coat anyway? Python is everywhere in the 3D World: Maya, Houdini, MARI, Blender. What the hell? Why some obscure AngelScript??? :blink:

 

Kreatorze, in order to alter current tools you'd need a 3D Coat SDK, a source code, or scripts (if 3D Coat's tools were scripted like some of Maya's). None of such has been released to the public yet. Correct me if I'm wrong of course. :unsure:

Yep, you're right, no user's input in AngelScript, but Andrew said that he will add this feature in next build + few additional functions for Matrices to modify vertex position etc.
I know there is no possibility to modify current tools, but you can speed up few repeating actions with scripts + create some useful tools.
 
AngelScript is not so bad when you're familiar with C/C++/C#, i'll say it's super easy. If you're not familiar with C like languages it can be pain in the A$$, i know.
Edited by Creator
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The one thing that has really got me excited (not counting the new Autopo coming because that is definitely an awesome thing don't get me wrong) however the thing that has me on the edge of my seat is the prospect that ...

 

Bone Rigging is on the possible features for a future release card set.. Being able to generate bone rigs within 3D Coat would make this a 1 stop shop for game devs, and being able to animate these rigs would be even more cool.

 

I'm picturing an Auto Rigging system where it does the following :

 

You have a box area where you get a curves like tool pretty much the same thing as the curves tool from the voxel room except that you lay down directional curved cylinder shapes.  Then when you have designated the start curve and all the extra curves out from that one curve, you click apply and it turns them into bones.. it's not too different to standard rigging but I think would be a lot faster.

 

You could also toggle for each control node in the curve if it was to be "Curved" or "Straight".. for arms you may want curved and do 1 for the entire arm then it breaks this down into a number of straight bones when you click apply.. or it could simply be all Stiff Straight curves.. but being able to extrude new "bones" out like this would make it really quick.

 

if you could then select groups of curves and create a sphere or box and assign them to it as a grouping.. it could calculate out auto IK based on default Humanoid ik rigging setups.

 

I think the key that would make 3D Coat a smash hit though for rigging would be if you could Toggle IK / FK and the bones would remain in position.. but the controllers used to move the IK bones would turn off.  You could then save keyframes using just  FK bones but position them quickly using IK constraints and the exported file would only contain the rigged structures visible at the time of export so if IK was toggled Off.. your character would only have an FK rig and FK animations to go with it.

 

File export format would be .Blend because it's fully compatible with Blender and Unity (and most indie developers would likely use Unity to get a quick prototype built so they are going to mostly be the ones buying 3D Coat off Steam which makes them a good candidate target)  FBX could be the other file format for those with silver lined pockets and Autodesk products ;)

 

And yeah that to me would make 3D Coat a dream program.. I get a little confused going between Blender and 3D Coat due to them having diff interface controls .. not the end of the world just a matter of less import/export workflows and more of a 1 program for all thing.

 

anyways can't wait for this to come into 3D Coat even if it's not executed the way I described, I mean I only came up with that as I was writing this article so I'm sure with a bit more thought someone could improve on that much more.

 

btw.. what's wrong with the paint room at the moment?  it looks to work good for me.

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I tend to agree with Jax Cavalera here. Paint might benefit from some reorganization and a few tools but basically I'm fine with it. I'm hoping for Open SubD and that NURBS tool package too. Let's root for something big here, not just little things...I want to see Andrew do something amazing again, something revolutionary, where he beats the pack like he did with PTEX.

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I'd be happy to see bug fixes, some UI cleanup and overall optimizing of what we have already, before Andrew adds any new major features. 3D-Coat, as it is, is more than enough for one developer to handle. Maybe an additional developer would be needed if he decides to add new functions like rigging.

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I'd be happy to see bug fixes, some UI cleanup and overall optimizing of what we have already, before Andrew adds any new major features. 3D-Coat, as it is, is more than enough for one developer to handle. Maybe an additional developer would be needed if he decides to add new functions like rigging.

Without a question. More programmers = better software.

I'm still wondering, how such a small team can manage to maintain code of such complicated software.

mind_blown.gif

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I'd be happy to see bug fixes, some UI cleanup and overall optimizing of what we have already, before Andrew adds any new major features. 3D-Coat, as it is, is more than enough for one developer to handle. Maybe an additional developer would be needed if he decides to add new functions like rigging.

I agree, the only difficulty there would be that to afford another developer, 3D Coat would either have to increase it's sales, use a different market tactic for increased profits or increase the price to purchase.

 

Out of these, my preference would be on increasing sales and the use of additional alternative marketing strategies.

 

such as : 

 

1. a subscription license alternative : smaller fee to use and it lasts till your paid subscription runs out unless you purchase extensions (this is being done in a lot of software packages now days.. However... most software packages make the mistake of making this the ONLY way to purchase their software which is a deal breaker for me though for a lot of people, a cheaper subscription method might be just what they are looking for..

 

2. Cut some license deals with other software manufacturers like Unity or UDK as 2 examples where by they provide a discount on their licenses to 3D Coat users and in exchange, 3D Coat would provide a custom applink to UDK or Unity to modify the mesh of characters or rig (if/when this is added) on the fly.  By providing direct connectivity like this, it will encourage more people to use the engines that have this support as well as encourage more users of those platforms to choose 3D Coat as their preferred asset creation suite.

 

3. Introduce a Sales Recruitment Discount scheme where by each sale that takes place via an existing member's personal link will push the purchase of 3D Coat down by a fraction of a percent or if they are feeling really generous by a few percent per sale... so if you can reach a lot of people then you can be marketing 3D Coat to others so they buy it before you do and when it comes to you buying it.. you can get it even cheaper so everyone wins.  It could also be used to make the cost of your next upgrade even cheaper as well.

 

4. Hold publicly announced competitions using platforms such as Steam to advertise for you : Steam gets to "give away" 1 3D Coat Pro license to the winner of the competition so that makes Steam look good to its users and they would likely promote this comp heavily as well.  Comp might be to create a replica of a certain 3D Scene in X amount of time documenting a summary of steps via a youtube video as proof that 3D Coat was the only software used exclusively to re-create the scene with a finished upload perhaps as well.

 

Each competition would rely on users taking full advantage of the awesome features 3D Coat offers so this would get even more people to move from bloated over priced software to 3D Coat as well.  Also, if the time-frame and complexity of the scene needed to be created (unless you were quite skilled with 3D Coat already).. would require more than the minimum trial period allows, this would encourage Educational License sales of the product at the cost of 1 copy of the pro license to 3D Coat and a lot of extra advertising for 3D Coat would be taking place as well.

 

These are just some rough ideas I have come up with again on the spot so would likely need some refining to work well but could really help boost sales and thus encourage further, faster development of 3D Coat for everyone.

Edited by Jax_Cavalera
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The one thing that has really got me excited (not counting the new Autopo coming because that is definitely an awesome thing don't get me wrong) however the thing that has me on the edge of my seat is the prospect that ...

 

Bone Rigging is on the possible features for a future release card set.. Being able to generate bone rigs within 3D Coat would make this a 1 stop shop for game devs, and being able to animate these rigs would be even more cool.

 

I'm picturing an Auto Rigging system where it does the following :

 

You have a box area where you get a curves like tool pretty much the same thing as the curves tool from the voxel room except that you lay down directional curved cylinder shapes.  Then when you have designated the start curve and all the extra curves out from that one curve, you click apply and it turns them into bones.. it's not too different to standard rigging but I think would be a lot faster.

 

You could also toggle for each control node in the curve if it was to be "Curved" or "Straight".. for arms you may want curved and do 1 for the entire arm then it breaks this down into a number of straight bones when you click apply.. or it could simply be all Stiff Straight curves.. but being able to extrude new "bones" out like this would make it really quick.

 

if you could then select groups of curves and create a sphere or box and assign them to it as a grouping.. it could calculate out auto IK based on default Humanoid ik rigging setups.

 

I think the key that would make 3D Coat a smash hit though for rigging would be if you could Toggle IK / FK and the bones would remain in position.. but the controllers used to move the IK bones would turn off.  You could then save keyframes using just  FK bones but position them quickly using IK constraints and the exported file would only contain the rigged structures visible at the time of export so if IK was toggled Off.. your character would only have an FK rig and FK animations to go with it.

 

File export format would be .Blend because it's fully compatible with Blender and Unity (and most indie developers would likely use Unity to get a quick prototype built so they are going to mostly be the ones buying 3D Coat off Steam which makes them a good candidate target)  FBX could be the other file format for those with silver lined pockets and Autodesk products ;)

 

And yeah that to me would make 3D Coat a dream program.. I get a little confused going between Blender and 3D Coat due to them having diff interface controls .. not the end of the world just a matter of less import/export workflows and more of a 1 program for all thing.

 

anyways can't wait for this to come into 3D Coat even if it's not executed the way I described, I mean I only came up with that as I was writing this article so I'm sure with a bit more thought someone could improve on that much more.

 

btw.. what's wrong with the paint room at the moment?  it looks to work good for me.

I've stated before, it's best to get familiar with the tools 3D Coat already has, before requesting wild features it was never intended to have (bone rigging). It IS NOT an animation application. It is an application that handles the creation of content upstream from that stage in the pipeline. And as such, it doesn't need rigging, a full-blown render engine, animation, hair and fur system, etc. It's far better to refine and improve on what is already in the application. For example, true layers for sculpting, where you can blend different sculpt layers on the same object, like you can in Mudbox and ZBrush...including the ability to apply layer masks and dial up it's opacity. Granted, one can do that in the Paint room with depth maps, but it's not possible to do in the Voxel Room. So, if you want to do all your high detail work in LiveClay and sculpt wrinkles on one layer, pores on another, and blend them together interactively, you can't.

 

Since you already have a robust Pose tool in the Voxel Room, with an FFD cage and all, there is no real need for a bone rigging apparatus. You can also pose fairly well in the Tweak Room, using the different gradient selections and the Drag Points tool. I asked Andrew about possibly talking to Fori, the developer of pmG Messiah,  to see if they could enter into some form of partnership, perhaps. He said he might look into it, after he get's Auto-Retopo squared away. Maybe bundling Messiah with a version of 3D Coat (Maybe call it 3D Coat - Animate or FPS, for Full Pipeline Suite). This would satisfy those that keep asking for a rigging system, hair/fur, and a more robust renderer. Tighten the integration between the two, so it's practically seamless going back and forth (via the Applink, which will need some improvement)...have matching navigation and hotkey presets...even tweak the UI of Messiah a bit to look more like 3D Coat's. It's not that far from it, actually. As it, too, has a tabbed UI.

 

Messiah has a nice Interactive Renderer, much like Lightwave's VPR, Modo's, and FPrime....and it works with everything the main renderer does....including GI. It's based on Arnold, which has gotten a lot of attention, lately. What Messiah lacks, 3D Coat provides. And what 3D Coat lacks (in a full application sense), Messiah offers. Could be a perfect match, me thinks. Why? Because, I think Messiah's market has pretty much dried up. No one is looking for a standalone Character Animation application. LW recently improved their CA system with Genoma, and Modo added CA tools in 601. Apart from a partnership like this, I am afraid it will be EOL'ed soon....shame. It's really powerful at what it does, and greatly under-appreciated.

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Messiah looks good I agree, though if I had the choice between Messiah and iClone.. I would choose iClone hands down every time.  So a partnership between an external 3rd party is a great option, I mean we have this now with Blender and the Applink setup.. the only downside would be that.. well.. Blender has that interface which is so counter intuitive to the average user it really pushes people away.

 

I wouldn't exactly call the ability to rig bones a Wild request, to me it seems more practical to work within the confines of a single application where all the interface controls remain uniform than it is to navigate away into another software package with different support staff, different control setups and a different community / vibe as well as a different compatibility etc..  Right now anyone can do and has to do these tasks in external applications.  Back in the day people couldn't do dynamic tessellation modelling inside of 3D Coat .. over time it's expanded with functionality and has been rewarded with a stronger user-base for this.

 

I think more than anything else, people want to see these features included and THEN refined.  Also I think people DO NOT want a feature that is broken or doesn't perform at all so features like bone rigging aren't something that anyone would really expect half done but at least included.. we would want it so that it is a usable feature for it's purpose and function before it's added to the software package.

 

I agree there are other areas that need work before new features like bone rigging and animation are introduced.  That being said, the Pose tool is not a substitute for the ability to pose a rig with an IK bone rig or even an FK rig.  I know that's pretty obvious based on how limited and irreversible any adjustments are using the pose tool compared to any form of rigged bone infrastructure.  The time it costs to try and modify poses with the pose tool for some form of still frame animation is not something I would be using it for.. kinda like using a spoon to dig out a swimming pool instead of an excavator.

 

The pose tool like every feature does have it's place, and without it.. getting a mesh into the correct pose so it can be rigged up would not be an easy task to achieve but for frequent pose shifts.. you would be better off posing the mesh once then rigging it and then posing with a rig.

 

I'm not really following the importance of needing to blend multiple layers, perhaps I just have not had any real need for this kind of feature.  If I had multiple mesh elements I wanted to create, can't I simply have them as individual objects and mold them so they sit within each other or wrap around each other easily and perform CSG Subtract functions to ensure no mesh clipping occurs between object surfaces.  Is there an example of a situation where you could only achieve the desired result using the blending of multiple layers?

Edited by Jax_Cavalera
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....I'm not really following the importance of needing to blend multiple layers, perhaps I just have not had any real need for this kind of feature.  If I had multiple mesh elements I wanted to create, can't I simply have them as individual objects and mold them so they sit within each other or wrap around each other easily and perform CSG Subtract functions to ensure no mesh clipping occurs between object surfaces.  Is there an example of a situation where you could only achieve the desired result using the blending of multiple layers?

 

ZBrush Sculpt layers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmqyLbVHnlM

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Pz5P_VzgdU

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7YnsAyDRaA

 

Mudbox Sculpt layers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnSZKZjsLKE

Edited by AbnRanger
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Ahh gotcha so it's basically Zbrush's way of creating layered normals/bumpmaps... Except that instead of using virtual depth it uses 3d mesh layers.

 

I am pretty sure I've seen the ability in 3D Coat to perform CSG subtracts to create the same visual look as achieved... the only problem being that it's not reversable by deleting an object as it's a permanent change it makes.  Yeah I think something like this could be neat to have... is it necessary to create detail .. probably not.  I mean the level of detail you could create with it is unlimited ... as in you could go from just a small scratch mark on a surface.. to adding an entirely new limb on another layer.. but if you were adding a new limb.. why not just use a new object layer?  and if it's just a small scratch.. why not use a normals or bumpmap layer?

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Ahh gotcha so it's basically Zbrush's way of creating layered normals/bumpmaps... Except that instead of using virtual depth it uses 3d mesh layers.

 

I am pretty sure I've seen the ability in 3D Coat to perform CSG subtracts to create the same visual look as achieved... the only problem being that it's not reversable by deleting an object as it's a permanent change it makes.  Yeah I think something like this could be neat to have... is it necessary to create detail .. probably not.  I mean the level of detail you could create with it is unlimited ... as in you could go from just a small scratch mark on a surface.. to adding an entirely new limb on another layer.. but if you were adding a new limb.. why not just use a new object layer?  and if it's just a small scratch.. why not use a normals or bumpmap layer?

You can sculpt this way, using depth maps in the Paint Room, as I mentioned previously. However, if you WANT this kind of fexibility when sculpting in the Voxel Room, you're out of luck...currently. THIS is one reason why I keep harping on the need for Andrew to tune out requests for things 3D Coat was never designed/intended to do....such as bone rigging. It's out of 3D Coat's element. Would it be cool? Maybe. So might a hair and fur system...but again, this is getting away from 3D Coat's mission. To model/sculpt and texture paint.

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I thought originally 3D Coat was primarily a texturing tool and was never originally a modelling / sculpting software package but over time has been developing towards providing that 1-stop-shop for all things 3D.  I've got no problems either with adding in the layered detail feature I was more saying that if you can already achieve this result using existing tools then is this feature more important than adding in brand new functionality that will bring 3D Coat closer to becoming a true 1-stop-shop?

 

Perhaps it would be good to hear from the developers what their current goals are for 3D Coat's future.  To hear if they are wanting to keep it locked in as a 3D model/sculpt and texture software package or if they are wanting to extend it's functionality out beyond this to reach a larger user demographic.  At least then we as the general public of users would know what areas are a waste of time to discuss for future 3D Coat features and which areas are totally on the cards.

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