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Andrew Shpagin

V4.1 BETA (experimental 4.1.17D)

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Did you associate your shortcut to a preset by chance ? Because if you don't check what you store in your preset (right click) you may keep calling the settings you saved in said preset (for instance radius saved can be quite an annoyance).

 

And I'll repeat because they need to hear it :) :

 

It's awesome. For the first time 3dc sculpting feels right. Surface control is on zbrush level, if not better in some tools :)

Can't wait to have the new routine in all brushes, even better if Raul refined the tesselation algorithm more :)

Beat,

 

The only shortcut I ever set is my Smooth All.  That's it.  Nothing else has changed on my end.

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Thanks, for latest update to andrew and farsthary. 3dc LC sculpting seems much more stable now and is real fun. I was wondering, is there an automatic way to increase polygon density after enabling 'remove stretching'? Because the default  topology density seems to low in some cases, so it forces me to reduce brush size just to increase generated topology. I hope in future LC and non LC brushes will be united in one brush engine with one 'triangulation density' slider. Value of zero would give just default not LC brush.

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Removestretching is not liveclay, and I personally like it as it is. Imo if you need liveclay behaviour choose a liveclay brush, otherwise what you ask is the removal of removestreching to replace it with liveclay in every brush.

 

I like how removestretching react to your zoom level, I would hate to have to fiddle with a slider with the dissappearance of this function. Removestreching is just a way of smoothing things up when working with the enveloppe, surface brushes (as opposed to liveclay brushes) are regular surface displacement tools,removestretching is just a way to avoid surface stretching, no more no less.

 

If Andrew and Raul were to add such slider I would fail to see the interest in distinguishing surface brushes from liveclay brushes. So, if this goes, the whole naming and section thing needs to follow.

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By the way, Remove Stretching isn't really need much anymore, in my opinion, because 3D Coat now optimizes the mesh when you switch from Voxel mode to Surface. Thus, no more roughness to your sculpting after you switch. Previously, that switching would leave the mesh looking kind of nasty, because it was the same as the marching cubes algorithm. Which isn't ideal for Surface mode.

 

I like to work without "Remove Stretching" enabled, because I have noticed a slight pause after each stroke. It's more noticeable in some cases, than others, but it's there...cause that's when it's doing it's work (the instant you finish a stroke). Plus, it tends to remove detail along with the stretching. Again, it may not be too noticeable in some cases, but if you are doing micro-surface level detail, I would turn it off...for this reason.

Edited by AbnRanger

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Remove stretching not needed ? You kidding ? Best brush is 80% of my workflow: rapid 2 + removestretching... 

If it were me all brushes would work with removestretching the way it work is much more instinctive than fiddling with a slider, the closer you're to the surface, the more definition it adds.

 

When you need to be close it's for details, it's THERE your need subdivisions.

 

The only use of a density slider is like you said: stamping high frequency details.

 

As for the delay, it may be annoying depending on how you work, but I've learned to ignore the remeshing process, just keep working letting the program do it's work in between strokes and so far it never bothered me. Feels transparent.

 

And again, removestreching was not added to smooth transition between voxel and surface, but to avoid stretching polygons when in surface mode:

 

See the uglyness without it:

removestretchingBenefit.jpg

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Not needed...What!??We obviously dont use same workflow.

 

same as Beat here... I dont even set foot in voxel mode (unless I got some booleans to do)

I would never be able to sculpt from a sphere without RemoveStretching on...

Pause is barely noticable on my side....

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Btw Artman, since I never switch between surface<>voxel (only converting voxel sphere brush blobs as a starting point and never going back), is the new liveclay change stable ? No problem with conversions ?

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Btw Artman, since I never switch between surface<>voxel (only converting voxel sphere brush blobs as a starting point and never going back), is the new liveclay change stable ? No problem with conversions ?

well I did not need to switch already on the project I'm working on right now...but I used proxymode a few times without bad surprise.

Anyway,pay yourself a little 1 hour session and do all the things you fear in 3Dcoat...that would be good testing...

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To add a Remove Stretching ON/OFF switch -acting over all tools-  in User Preferences... helps ?

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I don't see the point. You either use SURFACE tools, with or without removestretching (sometimes you don't want tesselation to kick in), or you use liveclay which are FREEFORM tools.

Why try to merge two different approach into one which would be awkward ?

I honestly don't like liveclay approach (small radius gets lot of tesselation, larger get less this can be quite ridiculous if your don't take the zoom level into account, and this require a lot more setting tweaking) but I don't ask for everyone to switch to removestretching mode. Both are valid, it only depends on your use/pov. But taking away remove stretching is a big no no for me. Like a goodbye 3dc no no ;)

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ah... ok... soo...

 

may be a tool cleanup & relocation in a future ?

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I'm all for consolidating UI regarding tool settings though. But you already know my stance on it :)

 

Btw I noticed Andrew has taken a few hints in that direction: the pose tool doesn't have negative axis buttons anymore.

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yeah, right... is The Great Work

 

 

my humble opinion about consolidating UI

 

consolidating UI with the actual handles and tool manipulation may be is a waste of time and -over time- a dual work

 

 

some manipulator, some tools need an up to day, fast keyshots... shortcuts... to offer a fast workflow in the overall sculpt experience

 

example:

user need to move ? press m... scale s

all the retopo handles, lights, render settings, tweak room...

 

The software grows very well... the vision about how workflow affect the user "feeling and excelence work achieved" need to be focused first

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BeatKitano - I too love to work with rapid2 (and mud2) brushes, but LC dosen't seems to have brushes similar to those, that is why I would like to have them with dynamic tesselation. 

And about detail slider - I didn't said it would be brush size independent. I would behave more like multiplier, just like detail slider in LC brushes. Anyway   what I wish is, to have rapid brush and possibly other brushes in LC mode

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Then you didn't express yourself properly   ;)

 

What you want is Good LC brushes :) On that I agree, rapid 2 is probably the most versatile and reliable brush in the surface mode.

So this beg the question of actually sorting the brushes... I've currently 6 brushes (in fact less than that since I count as brush my presets, and some of those are just the same brush with different settings) in my toolset, I can do whatever I want with those, they work well.

I know everyone works differently but the question to ask is: do we really need that much specialized brushes (swirl clay and ripple, are they that useful, they are pure gadgets to my eye) ?

Not the first time I bring this up but there's lot of poor/very rarely used brushes here, and a lack of good solid brushes in some area (liveclay is lacking a good solid brush like rapid 2).

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Yep ,I just wish there was no division on LC and Non LC brushes. All should be LC brushes, and if you want old behavior just set detail slider to 0. This is how it works in sculptris (tesselation is enabled when detail is >0 )

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Remove stretching not needed ? You kidding ? Best brush is 80% of my workflow: rapid 2 + removestretching... 

If it were me all brushes would work with removestretching the way it work is much more instinctive than fiddling with a slider, the closer you're to the surface, the more definition it adds.

 

When you need to be close it's for details, it's THERE your need subdivisions.

 

The only use of a density slider is like you said: stamping high frequency details.

 

As for the delay, it may be annoying depending on how you work, but I've learned to ignore the remeshing process, just keep working letting the program do it's work in between strokes and so far it never bothered me. Feels transparent.

 

And again, removestreching was not added to smooth transition between voxel and surface, but to avoid stretching polygons when in surface mode:

 

See the uglyness without it:

removestretchingBenefit.jpg

Funny you would try to use and extreme example to refute my point. OBVIOUSLY if your stroke STRETCHES far away from the base of the object, it makes sense. But most of the time, users are not making these kinds of strokes...but instead building, pinching, etc. in more gradual forms. Extending the stroke so far away from the mesh is used a small percentage of the time. Maybe you like it, and that's fine. But I don't find it needed as often. Only when using the Move tool or something, where the stretching is pronounced.

 

Beforehand, it was helpful because an object converted from Voxel mode to Surface, produced very rough results. That's not the case, now.

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Hum... the fact is this was extreme to demonstrate the point, but try to sculpt progressively without removestretching, if you really try to push the enveloppe, more than your initial base mesh it'll get distorted and stretched pretty quickly...

You can't blow a balloon without expecting it's surface to stretch...

 

AbnRanger, you maybe sculpting from a pretty  much definitive base mesh from voxel mode, but that's not the case of everyone. And if you want to sculpt quickly from the surface mode you NEED removestretching (or liveclay if you like it better). That's not a choice, that's a fact. I defy you to sculpt a character from a sphere in surface mode without removestretching/liveclay :)

you may do it, but that would be pretty stupid because you would need to subdivide your mesh to an insane amount of polys.

With remove stretching you can do whatever you want for a fraction of the cost of a quad based subdivision sculpt.

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I think this is why I spend most of my time in Voxel mode, perhaps without even realizing it.  I figure, if I wanted smooth brush sculpting and dealing with stretching, I could have stayed with ZBrush.  Now that I have 3D Coat, I enjoy working with voxels immensely.

Edited by alvordr

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@JoseConseco:man,I just made you a little LC Clay brush very close to my SF clay(rapid2) ...try it :)

artman LC Clay.3dcpack

It works well but depth needs to stay low...I mean freakin low.

I like it a lot,I'll maybe use it more to see what I can get out of it...(its true myself also find the removestrtching does not gives enough resolution when doing certain things or working on very lowpo meshes...)

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I think this is why I spend most of my time in Voxel mode, perhaps without even realizing it.  I figure, if I wanted smooth brush sculpting and dealing with stretching, I could have stayed with ZBrush.  Now that I have 3D Coat, I enjoy working with voxels immensely.

You're missing out, cause contrary to zbrush in 3dcoat you can kiss goodbye to topological considerations when sculpting. And you don't have to deal with memory issues like in zbrush and worse with 3dc voxels.

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@JoseConseco:man,I just made you a little LC Clay brush very close to my SF clay(rapid2) ...try it :)

attachicon.gifartman LC Clay.3dcpack

It works well but depth needs to stay low...I mean freakin low.

I like it a lot,I'll maybe use it more to see what I can get out of it...(its true myself also find the removestrtching does not gives enough resolution when doing certain things or working on very lowpo meshes...)

 

Tnx I'll try it too. About the reso issue with removestretching, I never find myself restricted, I'm using the zoom like crazy. Removestretching is really a setup of camera pos relative to mesh detailing. I really like that approach, it's very much like traditional sculpting, when you bring the figure close to your eyes to knife the hell out of it :)

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I think this is why I spend most of my time in Voxel mode, perhaps without even realizing it.  I figure, if I wanted smooth brush sculpting and dealing with stretching, I could have stayed with ZBrush.  Now that I have 3D Coat, I enjoy working with voxels immensely.

removestretching/Liveclay are much better than dynamesh...it does not remesh your entire sculpt in a lossy heavy way,it just remesh your stroke exactly when/where needed.The problem with voxel mode is that the brushes are not great...there is no decent clay brush ,no decent organic flattening and Pinching is mathematically impossible in voxel mode because points cannot be closer to each other...so what you see in voxel mode pinching is an illusion of pinching...I dont know if you can sculpt without proper clay and pinching behaviours...but not me.

 

Have you seen some of Beat sculpts? they were not started in voxel mode...

 

But what is still great with voxel mode is that you can be absolutly reckless....I mean doing wacky stuff.

Snake,Spikes ect...they all work better in voxel mode.Booleans are also a hundred times faster .

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But what is still great with voxel mode is that you can be absolutly reckless....I mean doing wacky stuff.

Snake,Spikes ect...they all work better in voxel mode.Booleans are also a hundred times faster .

 

The only advantage. The only reason when I sometimes want to use it, then I get spiky blobs of WTF sticking out of the mesh for no reason and go restart in surface mode ;)

 

If voxel<>surface transition was reliable, voxel weren't generating artefacts and the brush were solid I would gladly start in voxel do most of the shaping there and then refine in surface. But I feel like the 3 conditions are much harder to get than start in surface mode from the start.

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The only advantage. The only reason when I sometimes want to use it, then I get spiky blobs of WTF sticking out of the mesh for no reason and go restart in surface mode ;)

 

If voxel<>surface transition was reliable, voxel weren't generating artefacts and the brush were solid I would gladly start in voxel do most of the shaping there and then refine in surface. But I feel like the 3 conditions are much harder to get than start in surface mode from the start.

did you try it with new builds or is this still based on your past experiences?

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