Jump to content
3DCoat Forums
Andrew Shpagin

V4.1 BETA (experimental 4.1.17D)

Recommended Posts

more definition does not mean necessary more details...it also means cleaner surface.

In zbrush  going higher in subd takes care of getting rid of the coarseness but  in 3Dcoat its really difficult to do that

(smooth brush really does not help there...)

Im sorry but I want my stokes done at midistance from camera to not be crappy... :)

Current method does not take anything away from you...

 

Not necessary. It depends on your intent, if you're sculpting for printing or even to generate displacement maps for rendering, then yes, if you're sculpting for games, you can get away with a pretty low res mesh (while still being reasonable) with normal baking settings. Especially if you bake with your own tool.

 

As for not taking anything away from me: no it doesn't I'm aware. It's just I'm trying to think about the general picture here: I'm a new user I've two modes, one which work with zoom but doesn't let me adjust the detail value of tesselation.

And another which DOESN'T take zoom into account, and give me a detail value slider.

 

From an usability stand point it forces me to choose. If RS was only relying on zoom it would make sense: it's a fixed system, an option to choose to activate to work with the surface.

Right now it feels it's a restricted system which offers me option which don't exist elsewhere but also lack another option from a VERY SIMILAR system. I would find it strange personaly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

there is no relying on zoom AT ALL...

 

Also all nextgen hires sculpt made for baking that I see nowadays are superclean...nobody is doing crappy lowres even for friggin cartoon characters with1024 maps with only diffuse.(hipolys for League of Legends characters are superclean)

It would be like having a level6 8 million polys sculpt in Zbrush with an ugly level2 lump sitting right on the face just because user decided he wanted to zoom out to do it...

 

I dont think its a very useful discussion...

 

But it seems we all agree that RS should also provide some sort of subd control while maybe retaining its simple straight out of the box default mode on start up maybe....the thing with RS (compared with LC)is that it somehow finds the perfect res automatically...

this is why it is still relevant compared to LC tools...its just that in some situations subd needs to a be little higher.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

there is no relying on zoom AT ALL...

It is. Take your radius, don't lock it.

 

GO in liveclay observe tesselation with different zoom level. Do the same with RS, you'll see it's different. 

 

Maybe I'm going crazy, or maybe I use too many different software to even differentiate... for my defense I use zb/3dc/mudbox/Helix ... 

Case settled.

 

 

there is no relying on zoom AT ALL...

 

Also all nextgen hires sculpt made for baking that I see nowadays are superclean...nobody is doing crappy lowres even for friggin cartoon characters with1024 maps with only diffuse.(Leage of Legends charcater are superclean)

It would be like having a level6 8 million polys sculpt in Zbrush with an ugly level2 lump sitting right on the face just because user decided he wanted to zoom out to do it...

 

That's the "reasonable part". If theres nothing important to see on the surface you make, and all is pretty even (with a proper amount of vertices) you can get away with a lower resolution in that area. You need to choose carefully ofc, and make sure it's still matching the detail level of the rest of the sculpt (as a "rest" area ofc)

 

 

[EDIT] Since we hijacked quite a bit, I wanted to add something more in line with the topic:

The new changes to the brush engine are spectacular: I couldn't get flowing strokes with default liveclay brush with a low spacing and the flat round alpha, now it's butter smooth :) Good job.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
It doesn't force you if you always worked with your distance relative to your detail like you would do with a real sculpt.

 

i think this where we mostly disaggree....

I do real sculpting and I dont always have my face stuck on smaller details when I do them..

sometimes I need to see more volume to really put finer details that flow well with the rest.

 

anyway,it was interesting discussiong (but i worked all night so it feels a little pointless but it probably isnt)

maybe it will lead in some changes in Rs who knows... :)

 

Going to bed now.

thanx :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It would be great to get a Linux and Mac version soon to test the new changes. I know you guys have been fixing problems but hopefully in the next update we can get one too.

I agree the current way surface mode brushes work with no detail slider tends to be constricting. Currently one artist might want more subdivision and another might want less for the brush radius. It seems right now it is set at medium subdivision level which we all learn how to work with but changing the amount of default subdivision at this present time based upon brush radius is going to make one artist unhappy.

Merging surface mode brushes and LIveClay brushes into one unified brush set in the long run would be better in my opinion also. Now I am in no hurry as I would want both sets to be very stable before trying to bring all under the same hood.

Yes, please visit the voxel brushes after all surface work is done. If possible open up voxel brushes to true tweaking like surface mode and LC brushes... Give us a general voxel brush like the LC general brush that exposes the parameters if that is possible.

Edited by digman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Updated to 4.0.12B

- A lot of refinement in all LC tools. In our tests quality got a boost.

- remove stretching got touch as well. Move + remove stretching got major quality improvement, regular rs got more uniform triangulation and a bit deeper subdivision that leads to better quality.

- new navigation preset that is close to FPS games - arrows + MMB to look around.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:(

 

I get delay with removestretching now, it's bad. Not fluid anymore, waaay to much subdivision :x

This is what I mean't changing the default subdivision for surface mode brushes would make some artist unhappy. I felt the current subd was fine for what you were sculpting in a lot of cases.  This just turns into the dog chasing it's tail as some artists like more, some like less subdivision or are happy with what was the current amount of Subd for RS brushes.

Edited by digman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And why after our discussion with Artman (and a few epiphanies ;) ) I support the idea of a detail slider. With the new settings I have to go back to 4.0.12A.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow feels amazing!!

I did not get any holes and I used most presets..

And topology seems really nice too no more isolated islands of uselessly subdivided polys.

Sci-fi presets feel amazing at 4.5 details you get ready for baking greeble lines its really cool.

Detail value slider really is more coherent in all LC brushes too.

Love the improvement in RS too,very noticable

(makes increase in resolution optional as a checkbox if Beat is unhappy :))

something like "high quality mode" check box...but Im sure Jose Conselo will be happy.

Personally I dont think its too much as it provides nicer clay overlaps and feeling but I understand some may find the decrease in speed annoying(I find it hardly noticeable)

RS + move brush does not crash 3dc anymore too.

 

I encountered ONE issue and its a very strange one and worrying one.

 

I made a stroke using creaseclay brush (stroke is highlighted in red)

and a patch of tesselated polys appered at a place where I DID NOT stroke at all far away from the stroke(highlighted in green),

I know  patch comes from the same stroke because if I do ctrl-z it disappear at the same time than stroke.

post-1195-0-09116200-1387400423_thumb.jp

 

it happened just one time,I have not been able to reproduce.

 

Also Powerful Smooth seems broken,it does not use resolution sampled at beginning of strokes,it nearly seems to act as reduce brush.

 

Anyway,fantastic work guys!! LC sculpting feels safe and not experimental anymore.

(of course more experimental tools like copyclay,bridgeclay ect are not finised yet but the raw sculpting aspect of LC feels very solid to me and on par with ZB/MB imo  and even superior I may say)

 

Im sure you (and some  other users) will be happy to be able to move on to other matters.

I still recommend deeper 'interaction testing' but it seems to be llike the best sculpting build 3DCoat ever was and should be moved to stable release imo as soon as possible...Actually  LC tools in  currentstable build are much more experimental and unsafe than this..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A detail slider for RS brushes would solve the subdivision level problem per artist... :)

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok after further testing it seems new RS introduce  some unsafe irregularities as shown on picture (rapid2 (clay preset)

I think you need to fiddle with it a little more :) ... and make it optional for user who dont want/need more res.

post-1195-0-87967800-1387403873_thumb.jp

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the update looks great. two things from me.

 

1)  I'm same boat with BeatKitano about RS issue. I loved how it used to work. Not so fan with this new one. Adds too much detail for my taste. So

maybe adding this detail slider would be good idea. This way everyone could be happy.

 

2)   InflateClay. works funny. It creates those unwanted marks into surface. Maybe this is linked into limitation that we were talking sort time ago. But for 

me InflateClay brush starts to create those unwanted marks too fast. EDIT: JoseConseco guided me into right direction and it was my own fault. This is not issue anymore. 

 

But no holes. YYeeaahhh... This is going to be a great milestone in 3d-coat updates.

Edited by haikalle

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:(

 

I get delay with removestretching now, it's bad. Not fluid anymore, waaay to much subdivision :x

 

I confirm this,4.0.12A is more fluid with removestreching,Andrew posted 4.0.12B but I was referring to the previous version.

Edited by renderdemon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2)   InflateClay. works funny. It creates those unwanted marks into surface. Maybe this is linked into limitation that we were talking sort time ago. But for 

me InflateClay brush starts to create those unwanted marks too fast. 

Im not sure you want old InflateClay either :)

post-1195-0-16360400-1387405222_thumb.jp

 

New one is much cleaner....what kind of marks are you talking about? Please post picture.

 

edit:

Also I noticed a flatten curve has been added to generalBrush....cool!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I haven't tested the latest build, but I agree with digman. RS subdivision level was at a perfect default setting. Maybe a slider detail setting like LC has would be better.

 

When RS was introduced, I also wondered if the way the subdivision is handled was similar to how LC works. With 4.0.11, RS seems to mimic LC at low detail and smoothing settings. If LC can be perfected, maybe the LC Detail and Smoothing options can be implemented for the Surface brushes. So, when enabled, at default settings it would act like how RS works now, but if the user wants more control, the Detail and Smoothing options would allow for tweaking.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, new InflateClay is huge step to better than old version. But I still get something like this.

 

attachicon.gifdensitybug3.png

hmm....I see.I dont get this because i reload my strokes a lot.

Maybe Raul will be able to improve this...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

here is another screenshot of some nasty stuff happening with RS improvement using rapid 2...this screenshot is more obvious than the one I posted previously. Personally I also think level slider or checkboxes are needed.(if slider is too difficult to implement)

 

Users seem to really dont like it with more res...personally I think its much better with slightly more resolution ,clay looks much better,less jagged... so slider/custom resolution seem really like the way to go to please everybody.

post-1195-0-11632500-1387406831_thumb.jp

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

haikalle - try uncheck 'ignore bakfaces'. If I remember correctly it worked for me.
 
About RS -the way it is now feels waay better than previously. I get very clean, fluid, strokes. And with buildup option it is pleasure to build volumes. But for me it is not that important anymore, since with artmans LC Clay preset I can skip rapid and mud brushes and go with LC only brushes all the way.
 
General LC brush seems to have bug with 'tangent rotation'. But I do not know what is it for, so it is not that important.
138740771611.jpg
 
Btw. If someone want custom shader:

i3884x.png
 
And shameless plug to how it looks on real geometry :D:
138740728758.jpg
 
Overall this is big step forward IMO. Thanks to Andrew and farsthary

post-37682-0-42822800-1387408247_thumb.p

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

artman - I cannot recreate rapid brush 2 problem...

it seems pretty random,Im not able to find exact condition to reproduce. :(

 

Glad to see  Im not the only one who like resolution increase

(its not even big increase,if we look at wireframe we can clearly see its a very small increase)

I also get very fluid strokes too...anyway Andrew and Raul will probably find a way to please everybody.

 

about:Generalbrush :its still very experimental some sliders/checkbox are not meant to be mixed together or do not work at all.

Better focus on the first 7 sliders + Wrinkling slider(can be cool sometimes at low values)

also now we have flatten curve too (it is trough flatten and depth curve that most clay feelings can be emulated)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×