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Andrew Shpagin

V4.1 BETA (experimental 4.1.17D)

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Hi Carlosan, can you provide a more detailed bug report? because is impossible for me to repoduce it and try to spot it.

@Haikalle thanks for the report, Andrew is working over that :)

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hey there. i havent been around reading all the posts so excuse me if this has already been answered.
is there an estimate for when you guys will go back on working on other parts of the software? like
painting, UV and UI?

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Curious - has the various reported issues of artifacts etc after using proxy mode now been fixed with this update?

 

Also:

 

Posted 09 December 2013 - 01:18 AM

AbnRanger:snapback.png

Thanks, Raul. I noticed that if I have Vertex Paint applied to a model, and go back to use LiveClay to increase the resolution in an area, LiveClay deletes/destroys the paint information in the area I brush. It just started doing this with 4.0.11A
 

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Curious - has the various reported issues of artifacts etc after using proxy mode now been fixed with this update?

 

 

I redid my previous gif/report with 4.0.12B, still present. I think if they fix Haikalle's bug it'll be gone.

 

Now I just hope the slider is coming next, cause I won't bother to test the next build, RS is useless as it is now. Feels like sculpting on mudbox with a 90M mesh...  except it's the tenth of that...

I know it was in good intentions, but this confirm the saying: "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

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The color mixing issue is solved in the latest build you all have by now.

 

 

I know it was in good intentions, but this confirm the saying: "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

 

Problem is..it was actually broken, with old builds, if you deformed a lot the base mesh, for example with move, RS quality still was far from desired, new changes fixed that.

Today we fixed a lot of things in RS.

The bug related to cut ver LC was a very important bug spotted and I thank for that, but recent changes are not the culprit, they only expose it better, seems it was rooted long ago, so having a way to 100% reproduce it is an important step toward the solution.

 

 

is there an estimate for when you guys will go back on working on other parts of the software? like
painting, UV and UI?

No, estimate are misleadings and always things take longuer than planned to polish, but rest asured we are working non stop to make things better. Missing things and issues to be improved are the fuel of our work but sometimes is good to look on achieved things and good accomplished tasks to raise our strength and moral.

Also considering I have less than 72 hours in Kiev is logical that Andrew was working with me in LC this last week neglecting other areas.

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I redid my previous gif/report with 4.0.12B, still present. I think if they fix Haikalle's bug it'll be gone.

 

Now I just hope the slider is coming next, cause I won't bother to test the next build, RS is useless as it is now. Feels like sculpting on mudbox with a 90M mesh...  except it's the tenth of that...

I know it was in good intentions, but this confirm the saying: "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Please don't worry. RS will be polished at least to degree when you will be actually very happy with it, no less. If it still will not be reached, it is easy just to revert.

Until that time please use previous build.

We are working on LC related stuff a lot now because Raul will leave us soon, so other task are postponed a bit now.

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Andrew... Raul, ty for all

 

and Raul... i hope to see you back soon :D

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hey there. i havent been around reading all the posts so excuse me if this has already been answered.

is there an estimate for when you guys will go back on working on other parts of the software? like

painting, UV and UI?

After getting all to relatively well working state we will release 4.1 (free upgrade of course).

Then first order feature for paint room is Layers groups as in PS.

Of course it is hard to control all flow because sometimes something very urgent appears, but that are at least our short roadmap.

Andrew... Raul, ty for all

 

and Raul... i hope to see you back soon :D

Seems this time it will be easier to cowork even when Raul will get back to Cuba.

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Please don't worry. RS will be polished at least to degree when you will be actually very happy with it, no less. If it still will not be reached, it is easy just to revert.

Until that time please use previous build.

We are working on LC related stuff a lot now because Raul will leave us soon, so other task are postponed a bit now.

 

 

Ok. Tnx, both of you, with the exception of this small issue, the progress done on surface sculpting this last few builds is phenomenal.

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Then first order feature for paint room is Layers groups as in PS.

 

Any possibility for adjustment layers? And lattice deformation for textures (before applied to the object) would be nice. But I'm dreaming here probably. ;)

 

Anyway, thanks for that great piece of software Andrew. Only started using it a while ago and still need to wrap my head around the complete workflow, but I like it a lot.

Edited by wilson66

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Then first order feature for paint room is Layers groups as in PS.

I think that, in general, because 3DC is a 2D/3D paint program, PS is a good model to follow as far as function and UI is concerned. PS is a standard (whether we like it or not) and almost everyone knows how to use it. It is time and user tested. No need to reinvent the wheel. If 3DC can have the same consistency and familiarity as PS, this can be a big selling point for 3DC. ZB and Blender have unique UI's and workflows, and I know that some are uncomfortable using these apps. 3DC can really shine in this one area. I know this isn't easy, but I think this is a good direction to follow.

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:)

No one likes Zbrush UI at first, after a while you get "used to it", but if you can make a zbrush with standard UI you have a public. It's what skymatters did with mudbox 1.0, it was really cool.

3dcoat has a ton more functionalities, state of the art sculpting paradim, if Pilgway can manage to stay on course on the "Standard UI", it's a win win.

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Any possibility for adjustment layers? And lattice deformation for textures (before applied to the object) would be nice. But I'm dreaming here probably. ;)

 

Anyway, thanks for that great piece of software Andrew. Only started using it a while ago and still need to wrap my head around the complete workflow, but I like it a lot.

I got a better idea....how about instead of adding a bunch more new stuff, Andrew instead invests his valuable development time on fixing what's broke...FIRST? There is a whole lot of that to work on, before we ever get to the shiny new toy stage.

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Yes AbnRanger, that's what we will do in next builds, until things are not stable enough (no software will be 100% bug free ever unless is a specific small software) no new features will be crammed

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I've only had a few issues with the paint room, bug wise, Andrew has been quick to fix them. I use the paint room a LOT lately, and feel like it is very solid. It could stand for some optimisation and speed improvements for some things, but overall it is very good.

 

I think if anything were a little buggy regarding the paint room, it is more with exporting texture maps. It can sometimes be wonky and inconsistent between builds, and sometimes displacement maps don't export correctly (hard to nail that one down).

 

If I could change one thing with the paint room, I would change the exporter (Andrew knows this, with my giant mockup I sent him).

 

It would also be cool to have the option to have a paint layer directly correspond to a file on disk with it's own saving/updating functions, too. It would remove the need for the applink plugins, at least for painting.

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I've only had a few issues with the paint room, bug wise, Andrew has been quick to fix them. I use the paint room a LOT lately, and feel like it is very solid. It could stand for some optimisation and speed improvements for some things, but overall it is very good.

 

I think if anything were a little buggy regarding the paint room, it is more with exporting texture maps. It can sometimes be wonky and inconsistent between builds, and sometimes displacement maps don't export correctly (hard to nail that one down).

 

If I could change one thing with the paint room, I would change the exporter (Andrew knows this, with my giant mockup I sent him).

 

It would also be cool to have the option to have a paint layer directly correspond to a file on disk with it's own saving/updating functions, too. It would remove the need for the applink plugins, at least for painting.

+100. I just sent Andrew an e-mail and a work file about the inconsistent results. One UV map (Body) on the same model, exported a displacement map correctly and the other UV Map (Head) completely blank. Me and Digman recently discovered the Texture Baking tool is the same way...pretty broken.

 

This is why I get so frustrated and upset, sometimes. Here I am wasting hours trying to find out why something as simple as object scale is out of whack (after reporting it for YEARS), or exporting a displacement map isn't working and then end up have to waste time trying to work around it. While at the same time, we have folks asking for 2D Grid gizmos, EPS file saving/exporting, lattices on materials, etc....all the while, we have a LOT of broke stuff....features that simply don't work...sliders that don't...well....SLIDE! Inconsistent tools throughout the entire app (there is a Transform gizmo/tool in the Voxel tool panel, Pose tool, Primitives tool, Retopo Room and the Tweak Room, and not a single one of them is the same. This causes totally unnecessary confusion and adds to a new user's learning curve. Not good. Not good...at all.

 

Heck, we even have entire ROOMS (Tweak Room) that are fossilized and dilapidated.

 

Andrew and Raul, I do appreciate all the hard work, but please...before you consider yet another feature addition, ask yourself if all the known things that are broken....are FIXED. All the nice features in the world don't matter if you are having to fight with the application to finish your work.

 

Now, Merry Christmas to everyone. :D

Edited by AbnRanger
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Still getting all these empty patches in the textures. Don't see a REPLACE GEOMETRY option anymore.....some of these same issues keep cropping up and never seemed to get/stay fixed. This app is getting back to the same frustrating, broken stage is was a few years ago. Can't seem to work anywhere in the app without some kind of glitch or issue.

 

Can we scrap the Layer group plans until we get what needs to be fixed, working first? Is that so much to ask?

Edited by AbnRanger

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first order feature for paint room is Layers groups as in PS.

 

I'm always glad to hear you say this, as it continues to give me hope that many of the most needed improvements to the paint room are really coming and not just a pipe dream anymore. Paint group layers is the most significant, but I'm also really looking forward to proper layer masks (assuming that's coming as well) and hopefully the removal or ability to turn off texture culling.

 

Can we scrap the Layer group plans until we get what needs to be fixed, working first? Is that so much to ask?

 

The paint layer groups feature is the most requested feature in all of mantis and is by far one of the oldest. It NEEDS to happen. It can't just be pushed off forever with the excuse "fix bugs first!", despite how important bug fixes are. Personally the main non-feature issue I'd like to see resolved is the texture culling 3DC does on all layers, its caused me a lot of problems.

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I'm always glad to hear you say this, as it continues to give me hope that many of the most needed improvements to the paint room are really coming and not just a pipe dream anymore. Paint group layers is the most significant, but I'm also really looking forward to proper layer masks (assuming that's coming as well) and hopefully the removal or ability to turn off texture culling.

 

 

The paint layer groups feature is the most requested feature in all of mantis and is by far one of the oldest. It NEEDS to happen. It can't just be pushed off forever with the excuse "fix bugs first!", despite how important bug fixes are. Personally the main non-feature issue I'd like to see resolved is the texture culling 3DC does on all layers, its caused me a lot of problems.

 

You don't put a new coat of paint over a rusty patch of metal, and likewise, it doesn't matter how shiny the feature...nor how long it's been requested. It makes no sense to keep stacking new and seldom-polished features onto already broken ones. There are plenty of feature requests that date back years, and have gone unheeded. Some I have requested myself. But until the broken things get fixed...no new features matter. I have been using 3D Coat for over 6yrs now, and there has never been a time where I felt Paint Layer Groups were....NEEDED. What's needed is for the stuff that is already in 3D Coat to work properly. The sliders in the Paint Room are fake vaneer UI decorations. I'd like them to actually work.

 

What's NEEDED is for the application to help the user....not fight him to get work done.

Edited by AbnRanger

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That's fine that you don't personally need paint layer groups, but I'm fairly certain when it comes to texturing in any professional setting you're in the minority. And I'm not arguing against bug fixes, I'm saying I don't want clearly neglected areas to be ignored for years on end with "bug fixes" as the scapegoat reasoning.

Edited by PolyHertz

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That's fine that you don't personally need paint layer groups, but I'm fairly certain when it comes to texturing in any professional setting you're in the minority. And I'm not arguing against bug fixes, I'm saying I don't want clearly neglected areas to be ignored for years on end with "bug fixes" as the scapegoat reasoning.

Professional, eh? So, what PROFESSIONAL 3D Texture painting apps (apart from Photoshop) have Paint Layer Groups? Does Mudbox or ZBrush have them? I mean, after all...they ARE a necessity, and professionals must have them....right?

 

Sliders just flat out not working (paint dries faster)...is not a bug. The transform tools not being consistent throughout the app is not a bug. Exporting a model from the paint room and later merging it into the Voxel room, and finding it come in at a completely different scale...isn't a bug. It's a systematic problem in 3D Coat. Adding features and features that are never fully thought through and refined until they are done right. This needs to stop. If I've got two kids screaming for my attention....one is crying to be taken to the hospital and the other wants to go get some ice cream...guess who gets heard? That's right. Screw the bleep-ing ice cream.

Edited by AbnRanger

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Mari does, as does Blender in a very rudimentary sense, and iirc Bodypaint does as well (can't remember for sure on that one though). Technically if you're doing art just for fun you don't need anything, its just preference, but yes in a studio or even as a freelancer you're often given strict guidlines you need to adhere to for your master psd files. Sure you could do most of your texturing in 3DC and then transfer and organize the layers in Photoshop before submission, but this is an extra step that depending upon revisions might need to be done several times per asset. It also becomes an issue when you're working with very large layer sets or working with pre-sorted atlases.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like what you want isn't primarily bug fixes, it's a complete overhaul of the entire app from the ground up to be more consistent and user friendly. While I agree with this sentiment, I'm not sure if its something we'll ever see without massive support from the user base and even then there's a good chance it would just discourage Andrew from working on the app at all. 

Edited by PolyHertz
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