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Andrew Shpagin

V4.1 BETA (experimental 4.1.17D)

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holes again... and mesh explode :(

v11A

It was the case in 11 too. I've a hard time understanding how those functions can be affected so often, either Andrew is doing something at the core, or there's a design flaw somewhere.

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Do you have a a surface mode object painted ?

i find holes AFTER paint layers at surface paint mode... <_<

--------------------------------------

Andrew talk about reduce tool:

http://3d-coat.com/m...view.php?id=841

Andrew

2013-02-05 15:28

I managed it, seems Reduce may create too big triangles that causing wide set of problems. Not I limited triangles size growing, it works now much better.

Andrew

2013-02-05 15:29

I set it as resolved, if it will appear again in beta12, reopen issue.

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I dunno, most of the time I can get holes/explosions just by resym and brushing a bit with removestretching on...

Resym is a nest of bug I'm sure of it. Btw we wouldn't need to use resym nearly as often IF the symmetry option was per "mesh", because if you work on asymetrical parts and forget to bring symmetry back on symmetrical parts YOU HAVE TO resym...

But then again an old request still waiting to be fulfilled... (signature)

And carlosa: no paint, sculpting like Artman did in his bug report, simply doodling on the default sphere.

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It might be a good idea to create a voting system here on the forum about the most important request a game or CGI developer uses in their pipeline every day/week.

Get the three most requested functions from Mantis. Create choices A, B, C and people can vote and see the immediate results, how many users want A or B or C feature. Then it might be sensible to realize the one request that gets the most vote. The request doesn't have to be a "new feature". Rather a heavily used function in creating CGI in everyday work that is not currently in 3D-Coat or not working the way users would like and people have to go to other software to finish their models.

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BeatKitano, that 'per mesh symmetry setting' would be lovely! Also, it would be good to have an indicator for which models have symmetry (other than the symmetry plane, which I always disable). Maybe an icon in the vox tree?

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It might be a good idea to create a voting system here on the forum about the most important request a game or CGI developer uses in their pipeline every day/week.

Get the three most requested functions from Mantis. Create choices A, B, C and people can vote and see the immediate results, how many users want A or B or C feature. Then it might be sensible to realize the one request that gets the most vote. The request doesn't have to be a "new feature". Rather a heavily used function in creating CGI in everyday work that is not currently in 3D-Coat or not working the way users would like and people have to go to other software to finish their models.

It's there, no one uses it. On mantis you can upvote at the bottom of the report.

@stry: you can spot symmetrical meshes with the cursor mirrored on the surface, problem is it's a TINY dot that you can easily miss (and that's why you often think you're in sym while you're not)

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BeatKitano, Yeah, the dot is a very small help. I often zoom in when working on a particular side of the object to work on details, and assume that the other side will follow suit.

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sorry im digging the 3DC dev history but... i need enlightenment

i was asking about features that was implemented in early version and then changed :wacko:

i need to know why.

--------------------------------

first is popup tool library:

User only can interact with a tray showing ONE element, the active element. (see image below)

When the user press over the element thumbnail... a windows popup show ALL the elements in the library... ready to be selected.

I found that was implemented in version 2.05 <_<

Why this option was changed ?

MaskMtl.jpg

for my POV will be a radical time saver, and let to optimize the UI layout... why was changed ? :huh:

-----------------------------------

Then i found a second surprise... sliders !

and now are gone...

Mask_where_find.jpg

v2.05 too

source

http://3d-brush-dev....es-part-in.html

why ?

any help is welcome ;)

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Linux version 4.00beta11 64 bit non-cuda..

To begin with switching rooms or tools was never as fast as it was in some of the older builds. The lag appeared to worsen over time as I continued to use the newest beta for linux.

Also there are major problems with the preset system for your brushes at least it is when you create brushes off your LC general brush and save them as a preset brush.

When you create brushes based off the LC General Brush and then create any new brush alphas later, it changes your selected preset brush alphas. It appears that the brush alpha numbering system for brush preset gets messed up.

Deleting alphas will mesh up the Preset brush alphas as well, again this could be just a problem if you have created brushes off the LC general brush. The deleted alphas are not selected for use by any preset brush when deleting them.

The edit curves under the depth also appears not to function correctly. If you adjust the curve, it then becomes the default selection at least when you are using your preset brushes. No matter if you select (default) in the curves panel and update your preset, it still returns to the previous one. This might effect the edit curves under the radius too but I have not checked

Deleted alphas will return when you reopen 3DCoat.

The old problem of opening the brush alpha curve panel to adjust the alpha curve and finding no curve to adjust has returned in some cases as well.

We can name our created alphas using the curve panel but when you reopen the curve panel the name does not appear in the upper right hand corner.

I still can produce holes at times in Surface mode meshes, seldom but they do happen. Also when you swtich to voxel mode from surface mode and start brushing your mesh breaks apart. This also seldom happens and I think it is a memory issue in surface mode. To fix the problem, I undo, return to surface mode and then run clean up memory. I then return to voxel mode and the problem is fixed.

Finally, the preset system was becoming so unworkable and with the other problems that I removed 3DCoat entirely.

Installed a clean version.... Lag is completely gone at this time. Switching rooms and tools is lighting fast.

I will watch and see when the lag returns for making bugs reports. I will have to recreate my preset brushes again based off the General Brush but this time I think I will create all my alphas first and then not add any more alphas till the problem is fixed...

I put this information here in case others run into the same problems and then I will post some bug reports next week...

I am testing a beta version so this is not a complaint but only for your information.

EDIT: I just tested the curves edit panel again without any presets. Same problem, change the curve and there is no way to change it even selecting default will not fix it. It gets stuck on that one setting. You have to select another brush and then return to the previous brush to see what I mean.

Plus I need to watch my spelling, fingers are getting ahead of the brain... or brain ahead of the fingers... :blink:

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Looking at that image of 2.05, I'd hazard a guess that they took up too much screen real estate and contributes to clutter. Only Andrew can say for sure. I agree totally that clear and concise sliders are really nice to have and that it's ok to copy how other main-stream programs do it.

Case in point, I've been playing with Mudbox for the past few days and in addition to what carlosa mentioned about it on Mantis, I also like how it implements them visibility-wise in the layers menu. There is the displayed numerical value of course, but also next to that is a small icon. When you click on the icon with the LMB and hold it down, a vertical slider appears. When you let go of the LMB, it disappears again.

And of course there were these associated reports/discussion too in case anyone missed them, since were on the subject:

http://3d-coat.com/m...view.php?id=499 (in case anyone missed it on 932) ;)

http://3d-coat.com/m...view.php?id=500 (a must if sliders do get updated)

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Thanks carlosa! I want the value sliders back! I have made the Mantis report two weeks ago about sliders. http://3d-coat.com/m...view.php?id=932

It was a UI design decision when V3 was being released. Make it possible to click anywhere within the text and drag left and right to adjust the values. That is an element prevelant throughout the application. Here is my vote to keep it like it is. I like the idea to right-click the numeric input, to set it to either zero or default value, though.
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Ty AbnRanger for your reply:

Sliders let to see easily a range

lower valor begin at left... higher valor ends at right

but with actual design... user must try to know which is the range of... -example-

<Specularity Modulator> default is 1 but range can be 0 to 2... ok im at middle

compared to

<Contrast> default is 0 but range can be 0 to 1... oh ok, now im at the lower range

<Brightness> default is 0 but range can be -255 to 255... oh well... Contrast is 0 to 1 and Brightness is -255 to 255 ?

A more clear design can be:

<Specularity Modulator>

<............Contrast............>

<..........Brightness..........>

A slider or ANY alternative graphical design let easily to see which is the range.

We work with images... we need to see to know and understand... :)

slider1.png

-------------------------------------------------------------

And what about When we press one of these buttons then we see appropriate list of the tools for this group

was a UI design decision too ?

Which is your opinion about it ?

ty again

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It was a UI design decision when V3 was being released. Make it possible to click anywhere within the text and drag left and right to adjust the values.

This design is good to navigate but it does not provide information for value range, for example blending:

Depth modulator 0 - 1

Color opacity 0 - 1

Emboss power 0 - 5

Contrast 0 - 1

Brightness 0 - 255

Specular modulator 0 - 2

Specular brightness 0 - 255

Do I have to remember all of these limits? When I see number 0.5 what do I have to think about this value? Is 0.5 big or small? I need to know limits to answer. And when I work with 8k texture I can't move value back and forth to check its limit. This operation takes a lot of time with hirez textures.

PS: Carlosa was faster... :-)

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lol

take note that atm we are focused to find bugs just to help the V4 release...

this tweaks are good roadmap schedule points just to improve the user experience after it :)

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Guys I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you. Sliders lack precision and if there's anything they're good at, it's only translating the current value into approximate visual percentage feedback. Plus, they take up precious GUI space. I never used them be it in Maya's attribute editor or other software. If I only have a chance to drag left/right with (or without) a modifier key, I always do it. Or, I simply enter a value with a keyboard. And no, I don't remember the maximum possible value of each attribute I tweak because it's like what - one second to type 9999 or drag the mouse far towards the left or right to see the limits? Or just use a common sense. You try it once, two, and you know it by heart. I think Andrew was right dropping them, though I have nothing against their comeback as an UI option of course.

But hey, weren't we supposed to find bugs? :p:

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The sliders are great like they are, they allow you to quickly get to where you need if you don't need precision. If you do need precision just enter a number. The problem with the old sliders that had a "track" was that they stopped at 100% or 1.0. I remember Andrew actually mentioning this as the reason for the change. The current sliders, which are similar to mini-sliders in LightWave, allow you to go as far as you want (in tools where that makes sense).

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I'm probably repeating myself, but oh well. In Max you can hold down the ctrl key to make larger changes to the value than normal when dragging, and holding alt while dragging makes very small changes. Right clicking resets the value to zero (though default would be better). I was watching a video about Houdini and they had an interesting way of doing it too. Clicking the value pops up a vertical row of boxes, and in each box is a number you can click and drag which causes the value to change by that amount. The boxes are labeled something like .001 / .01 / .1 / 1 / 10 / 100 / 1000 which I thought was pretty smart.

I honestly don't see why it wouldn't be possible to keep it the way it is now and just add a way to make something akin to a proper slider temporarily visible, like what I described about Mudbox earlier, but maybe more along the lines of the image carlosa posted on Mantis. Now I'm thinking of a fuel gauge which has F at the top of a partially filled bar and E at the bottom. It doesn't even have to be clickable, just easy to read and understand. I like the ability to hold the RMB and drag left/right to change brush size, while up/down changes depth. Maybe this can be expanded upon somehow, with a better graphical representation of a slider with min, max, and current values temporarily displayed near the cursor as the value changes (not just a thin yellow and blue circle to decipher, which fails to represent 101% to 200%). You can already set 3DC to display something above and below the cursor, but that doesn't work very well because it's too distracting when it's always on. But hey, maybe it's a starting point?

Just spit ballin here. Why? Why not? :D

There is a lot of space in the viewport not being used much of the time. You could have graphical representations for any number of things along those borders, either permanently or temporarily. A customizable HUD you can toggle on and off basically. A lot of apps allow the user to see statistics somewhere in the viewport itself, like 3ds Max and Topogun do. They can show the total number of tris, quads, edges, verts, fps and so on all together at once in an unintrusive way, along with how many you have selected of each at any given moment as well. 3D Coat does something similar along the bottom, but it could be much cleaner and less confusing to read (and I am thankful it shows the number of selected edges and vertices now, Andrew!). If you really want to go overboard, make 3DC so configurable, customizable, and skinable that no two installs look or act the same!

Or just add an easy way to reset the value to either zero or default and be done with it. Yeah, we probably should focus more on bugs right now lol. ;)

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lol

take note that atm we are focused to find bugs just to help the V4 release...

this tweaks are good roadmap schedule points just to improve the user experience after it :)

Most have a value of 0-100, so it's very, very easy to guess where you are as you slide back and forth....watching the numeric value change. I personally don't like having a UI full of more clutter than is necessary. A bunch of unnecessary knobs to do that. Not to mention giving it that Poser or Daz UI look. :(

I recall suggesting the way sliders work in Combustion (when the UI was being worked on for V3), and for the most part that is how they work in 3D Coat, now. In the 2nd image, you can see the preliminary UI changes made, before this switch, and you can see how clunky they look. In the 3rd image, this is a mockup I showed on the forum at the time.

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It was a UI design decision when V3 was being released. Make it possible to click anywhere within the text and drag left and right to adjust the values. That is an element prevelant throughout the application. Here is my vote to keep it like it is. I like the idea to right-click the numeric input, to set it to either zero or default value, though.

I agree with AbnRanger and cast my vote for the current implementation (with right-click reset).

The way it is now you can also input values that are greater than the slider range.

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The programmer can experiment with different UI but professionals who constantly work with top notch software from Adobe and Autodesk will prefer software with similar UI. By this reason I don't like ZBrush with its not standard interface and chose Mudbox and 3d-coat. In current state 3d-coat also looks like a programmer's toy with absolutely disorganized menus but I still use it because of some cool features. Regarding sliders I can say that this is a good control and visual informative feature. If you need to use values beyond the range limit you can still enter it as numeric value. For example, here is a slider in Adobe After Effects.

clipboard01ta.jpg

You can see that default range is 0 - 50 but if I RMB click on numeric value and select Edit Value then I have a window where I can adjust range to 0 - 30000. In this case if I open project I can always see the value range and current value.

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What I really like is in some of the mini-sliders in LightWave you can slide like you do in 3DC and it will stop at 100%, but then if you press the mouse again you can push it beyond 100%.

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Very funny. So what IS the standard in your view?

What Adobe does? What Autodesk does? What The Foundry does? What NewTek does, Luxology or maybe Maxon?

All this developers offers very good solutions and defines the current "industry standards".

Find a good compromise and everyone is pleased. Why not work together and develope nice solutions that fulfill all requirements?

:-)

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The UI isnt that bad, at least it has tooltips that explain some of things, information is compartmentalised into rooms. Its a hell of alot better than Zbrush. You at least have a possibilitie of figuring things out without even looking at the manual in 3DCoat. Zbrush you have no chance of working out where things are or what arcane combination does what without looking at the manual.

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