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Beatkitano:

I think you are completely out of line calling the original poster a troll - or any other name, for that matter. You do not have that privilege here.

He raises issues that he feels are poignant - and just because they are unpopular views - to you, in particular, does not give you the right to label him with a stigmatic label.

I happen to agree with him and feel his points are quite valid.

We tolerate people with different views than those which are popular on this forum.

Greg Smith

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Oh, you misunderstood me. Never had this in mind.

And, Beat, Javis, we aren't trolls, Please.

I understood you Michalis, We are just discussing beauty, ugly, darkness,light in art. I actually agreed with your statement in the most part. Text talking is like shouting through a brick wall so much is lost and not really in the long run worthy of our efforts to keep shouting... I rather just sit and have a lively discussion with some good beer, wine and across the table from me a real human being...

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Michalis, I'm not calling any one a troll but the OP. Can't we state our opinions the same as he? While I agree with the sentiment of the OP, it seems more or less that he's come here to enflame the user base here on this forum. Not a good way to start post on a new forum.

I rather just sit and have a lively discussion with some good beer, wine and across the table from me a real human being...

Cheers to that! I don't even like emailing any longer. I try to keep to the web for business. Friends in person, even if it means I don't talk to them on the web for a long time.

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Beatkitano:

I think you are completely out of line calling the original poster a troll - or any other name, for that matter. You do not have that privilege here.

He raises issues that he feels are poignant - and just because they are unpopular views - to you, in particular, does not give you the right to label him with a stigmatic label.

I happen to agree with him and feel his points are quite valid.

Greg Smith

?

First: you don't know what I do, I only show side projects and I don't think I posted anything offensive here (the only time I did, I asked before to a moderator if it was ok, it was the Angel of Darkness sculpt) and it was a one time gig.

Second: What if I told you I felt as offended by his oversimplification and narrow minded examples ? That doesn't coun't I never attacked just said to beware.

Now, no I don't have privilege to speak my piece I guess but that's ok, cause I do in other places, but then again good pr can always turn bad pr... I think Pilgway experienced it with the whole EULA issue a few years back (which is still remembered btw if you check the link in this post).

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What?! I am the troll who enflames the forum in the "offtopic" section, lol. ))) Actually the theme became "hot" without my will to do that. How can I be responsible for the fact that so many people have gathered in this particular thread AFTER the topic had been started... At least, I am the topic starter, not someone else, so how it is possible to think that I am a troll?

People answer here and I am thankfull for that, I find it really promising, I didn't expected actually that my question can have such a resonance. It is such a honor for me to get the answers even from "someone with three quarters of a century under (his) belt" (Tony Nemo, I am young but I really appreciate your messages, thank you).

Someone is trying to change the theme of this discussion. I am not going to point my finger at that user, but it seems THAT user IS the real troll here, lol. ))) Hey, dude, don't be shy, I am ready to read ANY ideas and statements which are corresponding the thread. So, lets go further into the desired discussion or let's stop speaking at all. I am not forcing anyone to speak here because of my terrible questions or because of my emotions or problems or whatsoever. )))

As Javis said:

I try to keep to the web for business

A business, yes - it is the other reason why artists are ready to put their talent into the sculpting of the distortions and violence. They learn anatomy... in order to paint and sculpt the monsters believable, instead of to understand and judge the life surrounding us. It is because someone is ready to pay for this. Someone who has the money is hiring talented people and gives them a task: to make more distortions, to make more murders, design unimaginable weapons and so on. Why? Why we cant have the games and entertainments where it is necessary to share resources instead of fighting for them? Why we can't have the games where it is necessary to help other races instead of fighting for the Ultimate Intergalactic Power? Why employers within the CG-industry world or within the visual effects companies are not investing in ideas that can make a world a better place? Why we always need a bright replacement of terrible reality instead of the solutions and strategies for a better life? Why artists have to demonize and simplify the problems instead of exploring the roots of issues, thus giving people better understanding? Why the artistic idea always needs to be in the tiny space of color scheme or edge loops? Too much questions, you may think. Thats right. It is too much even for me.

I still can't get any clue, why it is necessary to put the talent and brilliant artistic expression into the false ideas.

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What If I told you, you're just posting in the wrong place ?

What you're searching is a traditional sculptor workshop.

What you see in the cg art is driven by two factors: gaming industry/movie industry.

In both those sectors you rarely see use of cg just to show beautiful things, for that we have the real world... or it's a waste of time.

Anyway I'm done here, I'm pretty sure my guess was right, I just felt the need to answer you just for the sake of continuity...

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What If I told you, you're just posting in the wrong place ?

What you're searching is a traditional sculptor workshop.

What you see in the cg art is driven by two factors: gaming industry/movie industry.

In both those sectors you rarely see use of cg just to show beautiful things, for that we have the real world... or it's a waste of time.

I am not speaking about traditional sculpture, btw. I talk about the meaning and ideas behind the CG industry, both gaming and film-making. Maybe I should be waiting and sitting calm while Feng Zhu has already started to play with fylfot and the visual "style" of nazism?

Attention, people! Wake up! What you are doing as Creators? Next images are made by Feng Zhu (I don't have any copyright on them or anything, I post them here because they correspond the discussion). You can find them here: http://fengzhudesign.com/gallery_page_09.htm

My grandfather was fighting against the nazism. Nazism is NOT a game or entertainment! The weapons of nazism has NOT to be understood as an entertainment and the symbols of nazism should NOT be included into the entertainment! I guess someone already wants to hide the history behind modern myths within the mass-culture.

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Point Godwin, thread closed, ktnxbai !

And there's still people who believe you're not trolling. gosh...

You know what's funny ? I kinda agree with you, but there's a point where you should calm down and do your own thing...

Btw, why are you bothering with the rest of us nazis/deformity adorers when you could do beautiful art to show here ?

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why are you bothering with the rest of us nazis/deformity adorers when you could do beautiful art to show here ?

I don't think about everyone here as about nazis/deformity adorers. The form of my questions shouldn't be taken wrong. Of course I am questioning in the manner of me standing in front of a lot of artists, who make something that I simply don't understand. And I am searching for an answer from those who IS working like what I am talking about. But up to this moment it seems no one except you and Artman had taken it as a personal offence, because first, there is nothing offensive in my question, and second - somehow no one is getting my questions as a personal complaint. You should speak from yourself, not trying to make an illusion that a lot of people had given you the right to voice their opinion. So, it would be good to have your personal opinion on the topic expressed here, especially if you named me "narrow-minded" and "troll". Why do you like dark-creepy-bloody stuff (if you like), what you dislike, why you think my questions are wrong and so on.

Of course I could do my own art. And I am working on it, even if I don't want to show the sketches or paintings on a CG-related site or simply find them not ready for uploading somewhere. The idea behind the image is VERY difficult part of creativity for me, and I personally don't want to show people pure excercises. The questions here are not because of my will to miss the time in the world-wide-web. I am trying to better understand my own taste and artistic decisions. I would like to understand why people adore something that I find wrong. Why do I find it wrong? Am I only one who has such a distaste of monsters, imaginary weapon, trolls and freaks? And so on.

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I don't think about everyone here as about nazis/deformity adorers. The form of my questions shouldn't be taken wrong. Of course I am questioning in the manner of me standing in front of a lot of artists, who make something that I simply don't understand. And I am searching for an answer from those who IS working like what I am talking about. But up to this moment it seems no one except you and Artman had taken it as a personal offence, because first, there is nothing offensive in my question, and second - somehow no one is getting my questions as a personal complaint. You should speak from yourself, not trying to make an illusion that a lot of people had given you the right to voice their opinion. So, it would be good to have your personal opinion on the topic expressed here, especially if you named me "narrow-minded" and "troll". Why do you like dark-creepy-bloody stuff (if you like), what you dislike, why you think my questions are wrong and so on.

Of course I could do my own art. And I am working on it, even if I don't want to show the sketches or paintings on a CG-related site or simply find them not ready for uploading somewhere. The idea behind the image is VERY difficult part of creativity for me, and I personally don't want to show people pure excercises. The questions here are not because of my will to miss the time in the world-wide-web. I am trying to better understand my own taste and artistic decisions. I would like to understand why people adore something that I find wrong. Why do I find it wrong? Am I only one who has such a distaste of monsters, imaginary weapon, trolls and freaks? And so on.

I haven't taking anything you wrote as a personal offense.....actually I rarely get offended. Especially when watching cg art ;)

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I am absolutely amazed at those who "take offense" at the points raised by Mr Mamurk. He's just stating what he thinks. This, now, is some kind of crime.

He has respectfully used the "Off Topic" section of the forum, which makes it even more legitimate.

Apparently, if someone feels very strongly about a topic that is absolutely relevant to those things and those tools that we use and how we use them, he will be driven from any forum where he dares express such strong feelings. I doubt that some of you even know the meaning of the word "forum". It is an arena in which many can join together to express their opinions.

Popular view seems to feel it necessary to silence and defame anyone who does not express the popular sentiment. Internet fascism is what I call it. Bullying. You can see this in full swing over at the CG Society forums. A few dictators dictate which subjects are discussed and how and in what "tone" they are discussed.

There is so much praise of those dark and ugly subjects which MrMamurk has described that there absolutely must be room for criticism of such praise - something contrary to the praise and promotion of what is evil and dark and ugly. I still believe that there are such things as light and darkness, good and evil, justice and injustice - and that each of these can be described with concrete words that enlighten the true situation and status of things.

As long as I have anything to say about this, MrMamurk has a right to state his views in as long a fashion as he desires. Right here, on this forum.

What will not be tolerated is a barrage of bad feeling and name calling directed as a weapon to be used to silence him.

Greg Smith

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Artman, I am glad. I thought we somehow don't understand each other, but happily it's not the case. And yes, regardless of your recent friendly advice, my hard-drive is already full of different images. I have a pick of paintings of great masters in ultra-high resolution, I have a digital collection of works by russian artists (past and present), I have even a huge amount of unsorted photos from Flickr which I am trying to analyse in terms of texture, color and composition (not going to break someone's copyright with derivative works and not using the photos as the direct references for drawing, but I am doing my research of nature and beauty notwithstanding of copyright permission)... I am exploring Art in all it's diversity, I have quite a big collection of the links to art galleries and online resources... I enjoy Norman Rockwell's artworks or landscapes by Thomas Moran. I really like the art of Theo Prins or Raphael Lacoste. Sometimes I find interesting digital sculptures too, for example the portraits by Steffen Unger (http://polyphobia3d.deviantart.com/).

Carlosa, I don't know. It was maybe just a cry of the soul. This thread had started spontaneously. I am really tired of constantly facing something repulsive and dark.

Psmith, thank you. I don't care to the attempts to silence me, it is some kind of trend, or maybe people sometimes are tired of reading and thinking. I've been twice banned because of my personal opinion at one quite big russian forum dedicated to the academic tradition in art. Because my point of view is different as from CG-industry mainstream, so from academic tradition. Know what? They banned me when they started to get real answers to one kid's question: «Why an oil painting portrait is better than photograph», lol. Moderator (one guy who respects "modern art" very much) have been unexpectedly infuriated with my arguments such as "texture and tactile expression of the painting is more friendly for human because the painting is hand-made; size of canvas is much larger than mere photograph and at the same time the artwork is perceived as something organic; artist performs continuous observation while painting; an artist's hand movements are recorded in the sequence of paint strokes" and so on. )))

p.s. I write here also because it is a really good practice for me to learn English.

p.p.s. Sorry for "a lot of text", it's really time for me to calm down a little bit at least today. I already wrote a lot, don't want to give a feeling that I am here just to express myself and not to let anyone else to tell something, lol )))

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Im surprised you really like Raphael Lacoste....he does dark stuff too, as are most of the great masters....

Maybe you should ask why he paint evil images....

lol :rofl: ....my point is "Dark Stuff" is not better....but it is definitely not easier to do....

http://fc08.devianta...ael_Lacoste.jpg

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Art is drama, whether it's traditional or digital. Music is drama and as well as film or plays... Now the basic question is is there too much of one kind of 3D drama. That is question that can not be completely answered because the internet is like a big city and everyone has their lights on and curtains drawn in their houses.

If I choose to walk down the internet streets, I going to see everything, so if I am offended easily better to pull the plug and not worry about it. I am not saying you are offended easily, Mr Mamurk,. I am only discussing within the bounds of the topic...

Maybe better for someone to find a group of local like minded artist, hang out, discuss, argue, laugh, create and create more or at least create a website where the guidelines layout the theme of the artworks displayed there, which has been done before.

The internet for me allows me access to works of art that would otherwise be out of my reach but I live in a world full other human beings so not all art will appeal to me. That is ok...

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Art is drama, whether it's traditional or digital. Music is drama and as well as film or plays... Now the basic question is is there too much of one kind of drama. That is question that can not be completely answered because the internet is like a big city and everyone has their lights on and curtains drawn in their houses.

If I choose to walk down the internet streets, I going to see everything, so if I am offended easily better to pull the plug and not worry about it.

Find a group of local like minded artist, hang out, discuss, argue, laugh, create and create more or at least create a website where the guidelines layout the theme of the artworks displayed there, which has been done before.

The internet for me allows me access to works of art that would otherwise be out of my reach but I live in a world full other human beings so not all art will appeal to me. That is ok...

Couldn't have said it better... :)

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I've really enjoying this discussion, and sense it's winding down. A lot of great points have been made by all.

I wish there were artists close by to talk to, but not the case. I work from home as a contract programmer, and about the only people I actually talk to are cashiers at the store ("yes, I found everything I need, thank you") and my best friend (my wife). So, for me, this is the local artist hangout. :)

I seriously don't disagree with any of you. I appreciate and respect that you have your differing opinions. If you don't agree with me, you're obviously wrong. <<<< JUST KIDDING! Smile!

Well, back to work. Hope everyone has a great day/evening/night.

Greg

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If you take off the swastika, the tanks designs are prety cool.

I'm not a war thing fan, but I think that, if you forget that these tanks bring death,

their shapes are quite interesting. I fancy Japanese "Zero-sen" a lot as an airplane design

even if they were deadly weapons.

Why so many creepy and twisted monsters?

There's probably two reasons.

It is more natural to build freaks when you train with new tools --> Wich means tools (Curves, spikes...) controls beginners

more than the designer controls tools in the software discovering phase. There's more to learn sculpting twisted shapes in the beginning

than beautiful soft skinned girls.

Second is, probably a matter of doing more than reality. Art is not necesseraly a quest to search the ultimate beauty inside nice human body.

It is also a witness of a period in time. People are attracted by machine designs or monsters. Is it that bad?

What is beauty? Art is sometime discusting (F.Bacon). You can't convince people that silk is better than garbage.

I prefer garbage and found it more interesting than soft plain silk, but wouldn't try to convince other people that my visions towards Art are the best.

I just can't understand what is the point of trying to convince people that hard. 10 people, 10 different tastes is the world I like :)

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Ah... the fascination of morbid things and crime is like an addiction to mankind.

See if there is a catastrophe people are shocked and deeply moved when they are watching the TV-News on that, but when the news finished they switch to another program and are glued to the TV for watchin murder, crime and violence :D

So addiction is the right word, imo. You know its bad, but you do it anyway.

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Grunewald's crucifixion!

A masterpiece of art, in any case.

About art history.

Such art was considered "ugly" and "disgusting" in the Italian renaissance world, for many centuries.

Byzantine art still considers as not pleasant art for many europeans and americans art lovers.

Michelangelo considers as greatest sculptor than ancient greek and egyptian artists, even today.

Just place one of his masterpieces side by side with a Pheidia's marble and it will simply stop existing.

African art? Well, not as beautiful as renaissance art?

What I'm trying to say... We're talking about searching the key to beauty?

Why I still hear "italian renaissance" behind the word beauty?

The renaissance of the ancient greek and roman spirit. Great and beautiful effort (tremendous, great artists of all time) but, still, not the whole truth about art.

The industry of movies and VGs.

Indeed, we have a problem here.

It's not the first time in the history of arts.

Academies... predictable, boring artifacts around. Money talks.

Expressionism existed long time before the artistic movement in the 20th century.

We won't trough it out of the window now, in search of a personal artistic vision, shall we?

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Oh Michalis... I thought you'd talk about Giger and his morbid creatures.

I'm pissed of. lol.

Grunewald's Crucifixion is very "Yuk". Re-lol.

I prefer Giotto. It is much more easy to see + it is the beginning of perspective (raccourcis) in human bodies.

Listening to Bronski Beat "TELL ME WHY!" --> This thread title.

Chigchong > Yeah! more gore please! :)

There's only one thing that makes me mad about Art. And it's what Marcel Duchamp brought with his

ready-made. Art which speaks only to your brain. I think it sucks. Will probably open a thread to try

to convince everyone that it REALLY sucks.

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wait ! :blink:

why THOUSANDS of artists paint/sculpt monsters ?

Because CG business need its

why CG business pay for its ?

Because monsters born to be killed :D

the BIG film/game business is based to kill someone

is more easy to kill monsters that to kill fairies B)

taadaaa :rofl:

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If you take off the swastika, the tanks designs are prety cool.

I'm not a war thing fan, but I think that, if you forget that these tanks bring death,

their shapes are quite interesting.

What I am trying to say is not that we need to remove the swastika from the tanks with "quite interesting forms", but not to apply entertainment approach to the violence and ESPECIALLY to the symbols of crime. The example with fylfot does mean for me that concept artists are not quite conscious about what they are doing and which consequences may appear later.

Great creativity, when being applied onto the theme, may change it's meaning (even up to the opposite), so we may find one day that people make their decisions because of cultural myths but not because of historical truth.

I am not against the depictions of war or tanks, I am ready sometimes to see the films or games about war. But it should be the truth. The violence should not be depicted in the manner to entertain people. If there is a pain and unjustice, an artist shouldn't make an image of that full of "interesting shapes" and "pleasing color scheme".

why THOUSANDS of artists paint/sculpt monsters ?

Because CG business need its

why CG business pay for its ?

That is the right question. Why someone is ready to pay for the development of nicely designed distortions and violence? And why does people ready to buy films and games about that.

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@MrMamurk

Great creativity, when being applied onto the theme, may change it's meaning (even up to the opposite), so we may find one day that people make their decisions because of cultural myths but not because of historical truth.

There's some inconsistency in this paragraph. Bold sentence vs the regular one.

OK, you aren't a troll but you start sound like a policeman in art or something. We don't need art police.

You have to believe in art and be brave. We all have to be brave.

Cultural myths you say. I say Academy.

HRGiger is a creative artist. You can recognize an art nouveau influence on his work.

If this became an academy now, this is not his fault.

It happens to greater artists than him, all the time. See the cubists movement. It's not Picasso's fault. He was just great. And brave, by all means.

You know, I can't really follow this "what CG business asks for". It's irrelevant to art. It's about money and making of your living.

I really don't see any difference between a holy church and a satanic VG industry when they ask artists to do predictable, boring, fake, atrocities.

If this sounds heretic or trollish, I don't care. It just indicates how the majority of artists can be so weak, sometimes.

Hmmm

Have you all seen Adolph Hitler's artwork? He was trying for beauty...

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You're so right Tony Nemo.

Another one. Zbrush is well known as an app that magnetizes artists all over the net.

Let's have a look on the gallery stuff they collected to promote their software. Completely understandable. But, the results are more "balanced" than someone may expect.

http://www.zbrushcen...row-gallery.php

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MrMamurk> "The violence should not be depicted in the manner to entertain people"

I often feel the same thing, but what can we do about it? Besides, Art, video-games or movies are not

necessarely medias to teach something. I count more on today's History teachers to make the kids

understand what happened for real in the past and what is happening now arround the world.

I'd be delighted to see your artworks. Nice and beautiful Artworks could convince more peopple than long talking.

I also feel sorry for the guy you pointed out at the begining of the thread.

You didn't need to chose someone as an example to explain your thoughts.

I really understand what is bugging you about violence, but this is the real world and it will not change

so you'd better get used to it or promote your things to the money maker companies. Why not creating

a game concept that promotes peace and tenderness? I think that would be a good challenge.

The problem is that, people on this forum may not be the right persons to convince.

Good luck with your big task. I'm looking forward to see what could came out of it, and believe me, I'm not hironical.

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