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I am the father of a mentally ill grown son and lost a wife due to mental illness so I have some experience to speak. The problem is not the mental illness but the availability of military type weapons sold in the USA.

The Bushmaster .223 is a civilian version of the M16 with a 30 round clip,. The .223 is low recoil and very accurate at semi-automatic firing. The ones that are sold are semi-automatic, as fast as you can pull the trigger, they fire. Soft Nose bullets (flattening upon impact) which were used are for causing the maxim amount of internal damage to a person who does not have a personal armoured vest.

All forms of violence caused through guns will not cease but the mass murder of people in the space of a few minutes will be overwhelming reduced with the ban of these type of weapons.

I never allowed this type of weapon to be in my home when it was legal and now it should be illegal as they are just weapons for suppression fire and to kill a large number of enemy combat troops.

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I am the father of a mentally ill grown son and lost a wife due to mental illness so I have some experience to speak. The problem is not the mental illness but the availability of military type weapons sold in the USA.

Likewise, I was not saying that it was the illness, it's the lack of support for those with mental illness.

The Bushmaster .223 is a civilian version of the M16 with a 30 round clip,. The .223 is low recoil and very accurate at semi-automatic firing. The ones that are sold are semi-automatic, as fast as you can pull the trigger, they fire. Soft Nose bullets (flattening upon impact) which were used are for causing the maxim amount of internal damage to a person who does not have a personal armoured vest.

All forms of violence caused through guns will not cease but the mass murder of people in the space of a few minutes will be overwhelming reduced with the ban of these type of weapons.

I never allowed this type of weapon to be in my home when it was legal and now it should be illegal as they are just weapons for suppression fire and to kill a large number of enemy combat troops.

I also agree here. I say this as a former soldier and being in favour of the second second amendment, state that I see no need for large magazines or clips, nor for soft nose or hollow points being available to the public domain.

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Then, I read this.

http://gunowners.org/a12152012.htm

Had a few of us been available with guns at the Newtown school, most of the victims might still be alive

Oh my...

What are we talking about?

I will keep reminding you what Thucydides wrote once upon a time...

..for the people made their recollection fit in with their sufferings...

Thucydides knew how stupid people can become,

Then, comes the real evil in the form of a savior... (not just one svastika on a VG)

Saying the bigger lies you ever heard. Always.

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Don and others, blaming video games, movies, books or any other delivery medium for the act of a person is preposterous. The fact is this person has mentally ill. You cannot control the acts of mentally ill, angry and so on, people. Saying that a video game made someone commit a heinous act is beyond ridiculous. It's the same as a person committing a horrible crime, then saying god told them to do it.

Blame solely belongs with the assailant and the failing under-funded mental health system.

Don, there were plenty of mass murders in the 80s. Research works wonders.

You were saying?

http://www.nytimes.c...ut-on-rise.html

When you feed your kid nothing but junk food, you shouldn't be surprised when they become so obese that other kids ridicule them over it. Likewise, when we, as a society, have been feeding on this same mental junk food, that the entertainment industry provides...there is no escaping the consequences (as long as it continues). The Romans fed their blood lust in Gladiator games. We don't need to be rehearsing this same behavior on our XBox's and Playstations, lest more and more people play out what they've rehearsed over and over again. We've been witnessing this for over a decade now. A rise in these video game shooting gallery style mass killings. most of these culprits are very intelligent. They aren't just mentally insane folks. There are plenty of people out there just like them. In fact you had some Liberal shock jocks and other loons saying on public airwaves (just before the last election), that conservatives should be shot. Even the President stated the other day that too many of these types of mass killings have happen under his watch alone. You can play pretend all you want, but it doesn't change anything. The facts are right there...for you to research, yourself.

I'm not saying Games should be done away with, but if we are going to try and take away or severely restrict people's 2nd Amendment rights, then likewise, the entertainment industry should be severely restricted in the gore it peddles as entertainment. All this blood splattering, and things like decapitations, etc., purely for shock value...should be banned. Those guns didn't look at their perpetrators and say "Hey man....let's go for a ride!"

It's like trying to ban sports cars because of DUI offenders. I can hear the rationale now...."People don't need to go that fast, so lets restrict cars from going over 70mph."

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Overall crime in america has dropped dramatically.

http://www.economist.com/node/21560870

Violent videogames do not strongly correlate with these incidents, there are plenty of other countries with violent media and not so many of these things happening.

Guns are a clue.

Keep railing about clever side distractions and you never fix the problem.

In my opinion these things are happening more now because society is falling apart or at least the social bonds. There always isolated loners, big clue there. Its easier to isolate yourself now. They hate society or persons in it. They do not feel any empathy or respect towards others. Despair has caught up with them so much they just want to lash out at persons or people.

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That's because of mandatory minimum sentencing, keeping more of the violent criminals from getting back out on the street. Overall crime rates doesn't have any bearing on this discussion. Here is a quote from the NY Times article showing an undeniable increasing trend.

''Mass murder is still a rare phenomenon and it's hard to make predictions about the future,'' said James Fox, a criminologist at Northeastern University in Boston. ''But over the decades, there has definitely been an increase in this type of crime.'' Skeptic Becoming Convinced

Dr. Park Dietz, a psychiatrist at the University of Virginia who is a consultant to the Federal Bureau of Investigation's National Center for the Analysis of Violent Crime, also believes mass murder is on the rise.

''I've been resistant to calling it an increase, but I think there's no avoiding the fact there is an increase,'' he said. ''The numbers are becoming convincing to me as a skeptic.''

Mr. Fox and a Northeastern sociologist, Jack Levin, are co-authors of ''Mass Murder - America's Growing Menace.'' They analyzed 364 cases of mass murder from 1976 through 1985, defining mass murder as the killing of four or more people over a short time.

The researchers say there are an average of three mass murders in this country each month.

http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2012/12/21/nra-calls-out-violence-in-video-games-like-kindergarten-killers/

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When a snowball rolls down a hill it gets bigger and faster. If the media publicise's someone suicide then suicides increase.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/mar/28/media-reporting-suicide-bad-science

The media could be more culpable than games.

I'd just like to know how this narrative of games actually being at fault works.

Do they train on it. Bearing in mind most of these people have been trained with and used real guns. They would know the fake digital guns would be nothing like the real guns. And there is nothing in the games that would prepare them for the real thing. Even that so called No Russian level. The AI doesnt respond like real people at all, nor does the gore.

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Like Is said before, trying to convince a crack, meth or heroine addict that it's actually harming them, is a lost cause. I don't expect those who like these kinds of games and movies to change their view, no matter how obvious it is. They'll always find an excuse, even when the facts are staring them in the face. http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2012/12/21/nra-calls-out-violence-in-video-games-like-kindergarten-killers/

Watch the first video:

http://foxnewsinside...guy-with-a-gun/

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I gave up trying to convince anyone of anything years ago, I know it never works.

I'm just presenting facts in opposition to supposition and belief, so people can make up their own minds.

And Fox news seriously wtf is that, is that a joke. Good idea put more guns in schools so people can be accidently killed as well as purposefully. This insanity... well I'll leave you to it.

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I gave up trying to convince anyone of anything years ago, I know it never works.

I'm just presenting facts in opposition to supposition and belief, so people can make up their own minds.

And Fox news seriously wtf is that, is that a joke.

Fox is a joke because they don't peddle Liberal idealogy? They are a much needed counterweight to the predominant Liberal Media (ABC, NBC, CBS, MSNBC, etc.) here in America; and thus offering a little balance. I like being able to think for myself and having a choice.
Good idea put more guns in schools so people can be accidently killed as well as purposefully. This insanity... well I'll leave you to it.

It's insane to have a Policeman in every school? That comment is a joke :wacko:

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It's insane to have a Policeman in every school? That comment is a joke :wacko:

I forbid myself to take part in this discussion so far...

Just a comment on Abn Ranger. Your thinking for yourself by chance exactly matches the reasoning of the National Rifle Association.

Everything is welcome to serve as a reason for violence. Except free access to guns.

People outside the US have to deal with the fact that there's a very influential Weapon-Lobby in the USA.

Americans one the othe hand have to accept that it's hard to stay serious when hearing such arguments brought forward .

That is for people who live in countries where nobody ever questions the ban for weapons in daily life.

We all live in quite different social systems after all - this colours our experiences and expectations.

One should keep this in mind when discussing in international forums. It's of course wonderful that the Internet makes it so easy to connect.

But isn't it hard enough to discuss something as (relatively) unimportant as Software -Tools through this channel?

I feel it made more sense to talk about the important stuff when there's a chance to see each others eyes and where one can shake hands.

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I forbid myself to take part in this discussion so far...

Just a comment on Abn Ranger. Your thinking for yourself by chance exactly matches the reasoning of the National Rifle Association.

Everything is welcome to serve as a reason for violence. Except free access to guns.

People outside the US have to deal with the fact that there's a very influential Weapon-Lobby in the USA.

Americans one the othe hand have to accept that it's hard to stay serious when hearing such arguments brought forward .

That is for people who live in countries where nobody ever questions the ban for weapons in daily life.

We all live in quite different social systems after all - this colours our experiences and expectations.

One should keep this in mind when discussing in international forums. It's of course wonderful that the Internet makes it so easy to connect.

But isn't it hard enough to discuss something as (relatively) unimportant as Software -Tools through this channel?

I feel it made more sense to talk about the important stuff when there's a chance to see each others eyes and where one can shake hands.

Vehicles don't commit crimes. Offenders do. Vehicles should be banned because DUI offenders routinely use them to plow into innocent people? Makes tons of sense. :blink: Not really. Likewise, guns don't commit crimes. Offenders do. Guns don't even tempt people to commit crimes, but entertainment that feeds a society's bloodlust, does. The Oklahoma City Bombing, several years ago, used fertilizer and common materials to accomplish a mass killing. No assualt rifles involved. A society with no morals has it's priorities backwards. No wonder you think the problem is the tool used to kill instead of the things that conditioned his mind and help triggered the act. Makes a lot of sense. :wacko:
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Removing or limiting the tool, when the tool has few uses other than the bad uses isnt a solution, but its a good first step, which would immediately reduce gun deaths.

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/12/externalities-and-the-dubious-defenses-of-gun-enthusiasts.html

I'm not sure what comparing apples to oranges proves but of course thats a usual tactic.

So let me get this straight, you want the freedom to buy a gun and shoot whatever you want, but you dont want the freedom to consume whatever media you want.

You think that if the media was full of fairies and flowers and all moral(moral according to your perspective) things that would somehow remove violence in the population. It could be an interesting experiment. If it fails, would you go down the route of eugenics or the Serenity movie where they try to reprogram humanity to fit their ideals?

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AbnRanger & I partially agree. I've already mentioned that I think certain games & movies, combined with media attention to the killer is a horrible combination. That said, I'm happy to notice that the media seems at least this time to be focusing more on the victims instead of the insane coward that committed the crime. I can't really understand why the 'garbage in, garbage out' concept that Don mentioned doesn't register with some though. Suppose we're blind to what we don't want to see.

IMO, it's insane that semi-automatic weapons are sold here at all. Who needs that kind of firepower? Really? I've never heard of one single good act that was committed with them by a civilian. "Oh, I fended off the intruders with my assault rifle" isn't a phrase you often hear in the United States. It's more often "The family members were killed with the father's gun".

Arming teachers - now there's a horrible idea. If you've ever been in a situation where your life is being directly threatened, you know that your aim will be less than stellar. The adrenaline kicks in massive amounts, your body shakes. Who are you going to shoot? If you're really lucky, maybe not an innocent bystander.

So, I agree to disagree with some, but I know we all agree that the murder of those children and teachers was just one of several lows this country has faced. We're all passionate with our opinions, and that's good. Change doesn't come about due to Luke warm response.

I hope you all have a fantastic Christmas if you celebrate, and a very happy new year.

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AbnRanger & I partially agree. I've already mentioned that I think certain games & movies, combined with media attention to the killer is a horrible combination. That said, I'm happy to notice that the media seems at least this time to be focusing more on the victims instead of the insane coward that committed the crime. I can't really understand why the 'garbage in, garbage out' concept that Don mentioned doesn't register with some though. Suppose we're blind to what we don't want to see.

IMO, it's insane that semi-automatic weapons are sold here at all. Who needs that kind of firepower? Really? I've never heard of one single good act that was committed with them by a civilian. "Oh, I fended off the intruders with my assault rifle" isn't a phrase you often hear in the United States. It's more often "The family members were killed with the father's gun".

Arming teachers - now there's a horrible idea. If you've ever been in a situation where your life is being directly threatened, you know that your aim will be less than stellar. The adrenaline kicks in massive amounts, your body shakes. Who are you going to shoot? If you're really lucky, maybe not an innocent bystander.

So, I agree to disagree with some, but I know we all agree that the murder of those children and teachers was just one of several lows this country has faced. We're all passionate with our opinions, and that's good. Change doesn't come about due to Luke warm response.

I hope you all have a fantastic Christmas if you celebrate, and a very happy new year.

Targeting semi-automatic weapons would be tantamount to targeting sports cars, because "people really don't need that kind of speed." Most of these weapons are just "sports car" variants of hunting rifles, so to speak (same gauge, same rate of fire). They are sexier and more sleek looking than a standard hunting rifle. That's it. I have no problem limiting magazine capacity and such, but in my opinion it's just a false perception by many that an AR 15 is a menace anymore than a hunting rifle. In fact, when I was in the Army, I always hoped that our rifles would change toward 7.62 rounds (hunting rifle 30-06 caliber). Why? More stopping power, and fewer rounds needed. Given a choice, ANY soldier would take a 7.62 over a 5.56 round, if they didn't have to lug the extra weight around, and most would anyway. A .223 is a very small caliber round. Some would say that it's meant to cause more damage, but I never bought that. In fact, I've watched shows on the Discovery channel that showed a direct comparisons in the rounds and the 7.62 won handily.The military went with the 5.56 round in order to reduce weight and thus enable the soldier to carry more ammo.

I went through Sniper training when I was in, and was in the Infantry for the entire 6yrs of service, so I know what I'm talking about. A remington hunting rifle will put a man down in one shot, no questions asked. Griping about the weapon cause it looks militaristic is pure silliness. In fact, the most menacing weapon a person can possibly carry and the ultimate home defense....is a simple 12 gauge shotgun. It's loud, can do more damage in one trigger pull than anything else you can own. People who complain about "assault rifles simply are speaking out of ignorance. They are just repeating like a parrot, what they hear their favorite pundits say. They don't have a clue what they are talking about.

Even if it is a copy of a military variant, an AR 15 is less menacing or effective than a regular hunting rifle or a shotgun. So, I just see the focus as being misplaced. Again, it's like trying to blame vehicles for the offenders who decide to get behind one, drunk. A vehicle is a 2+ ton unforgiving weapon, in it's own right. And it can mow down an entire crowd of kids in a schoolyard faster than any assault rifle. Doesn't matter how fast it goes or sexy it looks. It's not the menace. The human is.

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Vehicles don't commit crimes. Offenders do.

Oh well, the car example...

What I was actually saying is: That thread has moved to a discussion of a deeply us-american topic.

What may seem logical to you is considered flawed by basically everyone in Europe and also in many other places in the world.

Weapon posession is strictly regulated. No party worth mentioning in any middle-european party shares your view on firearms and would

raise comparable arguments. This is not opinion, that is is a given.

It is your right to think of the european mentality the way you like.

But you need to accept this state of things as well as we Europeans have to accept that Americans tick differently in that respect.

I just wished that you were not stating your view as some kind of universal common sense in such an international forum.

This in my perception isn't the place for doing so. Who talks to the world should anticipate that things are not the same anywhere else.

What may be highly valid point among Tea-Party members somewhere in Texas may sound pretty ridiculous or impudent across

the ocean.

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What may be highly valid point among Tea-Party members somewhere in Texas may sound pretty ridiculous or impudent across

the ocean.

Trust me highly valid points among Tea-Party members sound pretty ridiculous to some people in Texas as well. America is very polarized within itself on many issues so please don't lump us all together with the Tea-Party. :rofl:

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Oh well, the car example...

What I was actually saying is: That thread has moved to a discussion of a deeply us-american topic.

What may seem logical to you is considered flawed by basically everyone in Europe and also in many other places in the world.

Weapon posession is strictly regulated. No party worth mentioning in any middle-european party shares your view on firearms and would

raise comparable arguments. This is not opinion, that is is a given.

It is your right to think of the european mentality the way you like.

But you need to accept this state of things as well as we Europeans have to accept that Americans tick differently in that respect.

I just wished that you were not stating your view as some kind of universal common sense in such an international forum.

This in my perception isn't the place for doing so. Who talks to the world should anticipate that things are not the same anywhere else.

What may be highly valid point among Tea-Party members somewhere in Texas may sound pretty ridiculous or impudent across

the ocean.

Wow. And you were appointed to speak on behalf of all of Europe and "other places in the world"...by whom? Yeah. Ok, Julius Ceasar.
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Wow. And you were appointed to speak on behalf of all of Europe and "other places in the world"...by whom? .

Don't be silly. You know very well that I referred to laws and regulations in the European Union.

They are products of the common wish for weapon-restriction.

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Targeting semi-automatic weapons would be tantamount to targeting sports cars, because "people really don't need that kind of speed." Most of these weapons are just "sports car" variants of hunting rifles, so to speak (same gauge, same rate of fire). T

I would argue that there is a huge difference. Of course, cars can be deadly, but their primary purpose is to transport us from one place to another. The primary purpose of a gun is to kill. Most of us do need transportation, most of us don't need or want to kill something/someone.

I have no problem limiting magazine capacity and such, but in my opinion it's just a false perception by many that an AR 15 is a menace anymore than a hunting rifle.

Another point we agree on. Yes, limiting magazine capacity is a great start.

@polyxo, yes, I guess it has moved to a US/American topic, but since we are all human beings, affects us all.

Anyhow, I think changing the topic was my bad. Sorry. It was just a terribly sad day for all, hearing so many innocents were killed.

I've already become redundant on my feelings in these posts, so, as addictive as this thread is, I don't plan on posting any more about it. I sincerely have appreciated reading (and of course will continue) to read posts here though! I also appreciate the fact that although a lot of us disagree, no one has taken the low ground here, with name calling etc. This is a great community.

Long live 3D Coat. :)

Greg

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A short poem on violence...

Violence, a lust that thirst but knows no satisfaction

Blood fills the grave, overflowing streaming through the ages

It's bands strong throwing darkness over the earth

Opened wide it's mouth swallowing mother and child

Father can not help but only mourn sorrow tears of yesterdays joys

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I also appreciate the fact that although a lot of us disagree, no one has taken the low ground here, with name calling etc. This is a great community.

Well to be honest AbnRanger did compare all of us on the opposing side of the argument against violent video games and movies to crack heads at one point.

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This is an interesting topic and worthwhile one. I didn't find anything wrong with most of the work I saw on this thread, but having said that I acknowledged that some themes can cater to a more disturbing taste. Just as I feel artist, film, and game makers have a responsibility to considered the impact of there work on society, I also feel that censorship also leads to a Nazi state of affairs as well. I tend to draw the line at anything that depicts or implies real life violence, harm to children, or harmful handling of women.

The human form is beautiful and the nude body shown correctly can be beautiful and it also can be down right wrong depending on the venue. The human imagination that is scene in many of the sculpts we see on the internet today is wonderful.

My current retopo project that I am working on for a game character and my learning of retopology is currently in nude female state but I only show the head, ears, or nose when I seek advice on the forum. I will be making armor when the retopo is done. My point is, it would have been in poor taste to show the full nude on this forum. However if it was intended to be a statue of antiquity I would have had no problem showing all and neither does the museums and art galleries of the world. There is a time a place for most things.

I started two sculpts in Zbrush for some Game Character concepts. One is a post apocalyptic Female Hero (good guy) but could easily be taken for something intended to be offensive or evil not knowing the story and setting it is intended for. The other is mermaid torso with similar type of disposition.

I was saddened by the backlash at the 3D-Coat company for the inspiring beautiful words of there faith that are on the website. It appears many people want respect and tolerance for what ever we draw, direct, or program but can't take any type of cry for a certain morality or religious consideration Even though I tend to like to make Lora Croft or Aion type characters with that tend to be scantly clad, but covered. In Aion MMORPG the Asmodians have horns on there head but if you read the story of the game they are treated bad because they look different and in fact they are not evil at all. We can't judge the hearts of most of these artist by still pictures. I was inspired and probably in someway swayed in a good way by the words on the 3D-Coat site. I also enjoyed the short animation film they made.

In closing, to the person that started this thread, I hear you man but there has to be a balance. The things that bother me art-wise I just ignore unless it is something that depicts the unspeakable.

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B4eM_rkmL2oaRkJUMk8zb0VIR2M

Happy Holidays,

Robert

New to 3D Modeling, sculpting, retopo and Video Game Development

Working on Indie Video Game in Unity 3D

Electrical Engineer

Guitar Player (Hobby)

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Well to be honest AbnRanger did compare all of us on the opposing side of the argument against violent video games and movies to crack heads at one point.

The rest of us have not stooped to that level, and for that, I appreciate it very much.

Cheers. :drinks:

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