3D Coat Autopy Techniques

[Jax_Cavalera]

I have started some research as the result of correspondence with another member of the community and we came to realize a few things about the Autopy toolset.

 

1.  Avoid the Orange/Red loops at all costs as they guarantee spiral edge loops.

 

2. Try to keep all Green Strokes flowing in the same direction for major sections

 

3.  Splitting your model up into pieces can improve the topology results.

 

Later I was working with these concepts (forgot about the splitting model up one till now) and I came across another interesting thing.

 

Autopy likes to follow density painted areas.

 

This started me on some testing and below is a video with the results that are actually pretty good considering.  Hope that you all enjoy and are able to help tweak this system even more.

 

p.s. vid is still uploading if it isn't showing up yet .. it goes for 24 minutes sorry for not clipping down the work.. I personally like to see things from start to end though I know some people prefer to see the start of a few bits of work.. then timelapse and it's all done.

 

[Pix Jigsaw]

I didn't know about avoiding the red and orange loops.  Thanks for the tip.

 

note:  When I clicked on your video it said the video was unavailable. 

[Jax_Cavalera]

Hey yeah no worries, umm it's currently at 75% uploaded so it should be up there soon.  After looking at the hand areas further, I would be keen to know how other people would do them differently using manual retopology so I can compare the results and get more clues on how to further guide using density painting.

[AbnRanger]

I think Andrew mentioned that you can simply apply an extra (orange) loop close by another, to reinforce it and help prevent  spiral edgeloops. Probably faster than trying to paint them in.

[Jax_Cavalera]

Hmm I have tried that before and it simply created spiral loops for me.  Will give it another try though.  I'm also experimenting trying to achieve a "shrinkwrap" box effect for manual retopology so I add a cube to the retopo room and place my torso inside it.. then start adding split rings to fit it to the shape of the body as desired.  So far it's only crashed 3D Coat but I'm hoping to get it working as a possible alternative to Autopo that requires minimal time / effort for good results.

 

edit. Quick test on the same mesh shown in the above video using Orange/Red rings exclusively shows that they produce spiral loops.  I tried using them with green lines and the results are similar except with good edge loops forming every now and then.  Without them at all, there are only a handfull of spirals and they are not major elements inside of the topology.

 

I know this is all in the works to be fixed so I'm not saying that it's a broken tool, just finding a way to use it in it's existing form and sharing that wth others so we all benefit is my goal.

Edited August 15, 2013 by Jax_Cavalera

[AbnRanger]

Based on your video, it seems as if you are often confusing spiral edge loops with other things. Just because 3D Coat changes the flow of the topology in areas like the hands, feet and head, it doesn't mean a spiral edgeloop exists. You are painting areas like those to contain more edgeloops than there are on the other parts of the body....so, 3D Coat has to try and figure out how to terminate all those extra edges. A spiral edgeloop is a loop that doesn't terminate upon itself (in a closed, circular fashion). It just continues to flow in a spiral fashion, along a given portion of an object.

 

Again, you are asking a pre-determined algorithm to do all the guesswork for you, on a rather complex model. Again, even if Andrew is able to work some magic, you DO NOT want to try and use it on a character that you are going to skin, rig and animate. I already explained why. Use it on other models in the scene...especially objects that will not be deformed during the animation. It's perfect for secondary elements on a character, too....like armor, belts, bracelets, buckles, etc.

 

Just remember, you are the director of the scene. You do not want to delegate (directorial) control of your lead actor...do you? It's not wise to use an automated process for a complex task, where you want arbitrary control.

Edited August 15, 2013 by AbnRanger

[Jax_Cavalera]

Hi Abn, thank you for this extra information.  I know what a spiraling edge loop looks like.  I re-watched the video again and can't find where I was referring to normal topology as spiraling edge loops as each time I noted them, they were spiraling to the best of my knowledge.

 

I agree that trying to use automated scripts such as Autopo to do ALL the work is a bad idea.  The way the script works, you end up spending a great deal of time laying down the ground work for it before it can even work it's "magic".

 

Personally I have found manual retopology to be too slow and inefficient on it's own.  I tried using box shapes to kick start the manual topology process as an alternative and this produced the same issue I started to see popping up with Autopo.

 

I might end up using Blender to kick start my topology and then moving the mesh into 3D Coat as it has a superior kick-starter technique to lay down the cylindrical topology shapes quickly called Contour.  It is a free add-on for blender though the creator is looking for donations to support it's expanded development.  I can definitely see using that tool to produce arm, fingers, toes, torso, feet and neck topology as a benefit.  Then you just have to join the pieces together and create "caps" for the fingertips etc.  I would probably drop a sphere over the head of the mesh and conform geometry using the brush smooth tool for the head and cut out the face to re-topo that part manually for more precise looping.

 

However that's a hybrid solution so I'm keen to see if we can find a superior solution exclusive to 3D Coat as it can be a pain jumping from one program to another. 

 

You end up with this messy topography at the symmetry seam line.  I'm yet to fully understand what causes this to happen but it has produced everything from mesh gaps to triangles that break what should have been healthy edge loops.

 

I can't stress enough that the goal here is not to stay with the existing workflow and painfully chip away at manual retopology but to try and find ways to generate faster clean topology.  There are no expectations of what these tools should do, only excitement over what we are able to achieve with them.  I don't really see the danger in trying to find a faster way to use software so that it unlocks and even faster workflow.

 

The best results I have achieved so far are using a combination of different things.

 

I will edit the opening post with some new information that has become apparent thus far in the topic.

 

 

 

EDIT :

 

Never mind forgot that you can't edit older posts for some reason.

 

 

NEW  INFORMATION

 

The Red/Orange rings produce spirals when they are not being intersected by 2 Green strokes.

 

When I used more than 2 Green strokes to intersect a Ring it would cause spiraling unpredictably (not on every loop but most)

 

Working with sliced models provided me with a lot more control over Autopy which resulted in faster workflow.

 

I was not able to achieve a clean set of fingers or toes with Autopy and therefore am considering either manual retopology or slicing them off and Autopy on their own.  I think at this point manual retopology would be faster using quads direct/2 clicks mode.

Edited August 15, 2013 by Jax_Cavalera

[AbnRanger]

As TimmyZ already mentioned, the best way to go is to use the STROKES tool for 80-90% of the model. It is something of an Auto Retopo tool in it's own right....by quickly laying down a few  (rubber band style, orange) loops and with a cross section (green stroke) + ENTER, you have an entire section of your model topologized...all inside the space of a few seconds. It's perfect for cylindrical and even rectangular shaped objects. If you think about it, most of the human body is made up of cylindrical shaped parts. That means you could use the Strokes tool to do all but the head/face of a character. And even then, because it has a dual function as a topology sketching tool, it's also perfect for the head/face. The other tools are best used to clean-up.

[Jax_Cavalera]

OH yeah I forgot that you can use those 2 in combo outside of Autopy like that.  Then they work the same as the contour tool from blender I mentioned.  That's cool. will give that a go and see what can be done.  I think that the work I achieved with Autopy in the OP is likely as good as Autopy gets so this is currently the end of line for this thread until we get to see the next set of upgrades to the Autopy tool but I'm happy if others have extra to add.

[Tony Nemo]

As for "the slowness" of manual topoplogy, it can be considerably shortened by saving your best effort and using it over by snapping it to your new model. Any possible problem areas where the shape differs too much (like horns, maybe) can be redone in minutes. There is optimal edge loops for faces and bodies that need be created only once if speed of completion is so important.

[TimmyZDesign]

As for "the slowness" of manual topoplogy, it can be considerably shortened by saving your best effort and using it over by snapping it to your new model. Any possible problem areas where the shape differs too much (like horns, maybe) can be redone in minutes. There is optimal edge loops for faces and bodies that need be created only once if speed of completion is so important.

Yes, it is a very good policy to always reuse as many things as possible. There is nothing wrong with doing that as long as your final result still looks unique and professional. Reusing things always saves time.

 

The only problem I have encountered with reusing topology from other projects is that it often will require too much editing to be useful. The way around this is to have a LOT of old projects that you can cannibalize pieces from (cartoon style models, realistic-looking models, fat, skinny, old, male, female, etc.). Unfortunately, many new users do not have much of a stock to choose from, so manual retopology actually ends up being the best bet in the end.

 

@Jax:

However, the biggest key to speed is knowing how to create good topology. Memorize where the poles should be; memorize how to create directional changes in edgeflow. For example, there should be a pole right in front of the armpit of a humanoid character, and there should be another one right at the back of the armpit. If you know this, then you can build those key pieces of topology, and then connect the rest of the topology to meet up with them. At that point, the rest of the topology will simply fall into place quickly.

Edited August 15, 2013 by TimmyZDesign

[Jax_Cavalera]

Hey guys, these tips are invaluable and really appreciated.  I wasn't 100% sure if I should be trying to get a seam down the side of my model (thinking to unwrap it like an easter-egg cast... OR to have a side set of panels that run down there as essentially the seam would be on the character's back.

 

Have any other members here experienced the problem of that crease (extra messy topology) around the symmetry line?

 

If I push vertices together so it looks like a solid line in the middle it seems ok, and yet I am still able to use a brush to pull them apart and it's like a never ending supply of vertices that jump out of that symmetry line.  pushing excess into that line might cause problems later on though I am not sure.. or would the symmetry destroy anything at that edge to leave you with 1 crisp middle loop/seam?

 

This has been a problem experienced in both Autopy and Manual Retopology. 

[TimmyZDesign]

About the symmetry plane issues you are having:

 

3D-Coat is by default in "Virtual Mirror Mode" when you start doing retopo in the Retopo Room. That means that when you turn on symmetry, half of the polygons are created "virtually" on one side of the symmetry line. They aren't actually real until you choose to make them real. To make them real, you need to go to the Retopo menu and choose "Apply symmetry to all layers", or "Apply symmetry to the current layer". Then both sides of the symmetry plane will have real polygons. Before you execute this command, you are only creating polygons on one side of the symmetry plane. The polygons that you see on the other side are just a mirror image, but they do not exist yet in reality. The reason for having this is so that you can NONDESTRUCTIVELY preview what the other side of your mesh will look like. In that sense, Virtual Mirror Mode is quite useful. On the other hand, Virtual Mirror Mode may confuse you because the virtual polygons might cover real polygons underneath. You can check for any hidden polygons by turning off symmetry (symmetry settings are found in the Symmetry menu).

 

If Virtual Mirror Mode is confusing you, and you do not want to have that kind of nondestructive virtual preview, then you can simply turn Virtual Mirror Mode off. In the Retopo menu, uncheck "Virtual Mirror Mode". Then real polygons will be created on both sides of your mesh simultaneously, and What You See Is What You Get.

 

If you choose to work with Virtual Mirror Mode, you need to be aware of several things. First, there is only one "correct" side of the mesh to work on. By default, this is the left side of the character (from the character's point of view). If you'd rather work on the right side of the character (from the character's point of view), then you need to click on the "invert mirror" setting at the top of the viewport. Second, be aware that it is possible to extend polygons over the symmetry line to the other side of the mesh. You will not be able to see those polygons because the Virtual Mirror Mode preview is covering them. That is why it may visually appear that your polygons end at the symmetry line, but in actual fact there are no vertices at the symmetry line. Turn off symmetry, and you will see where their actual vertices lie on the mesh. Third, when you choose "Apply symmetry to all layers" or "Apply symmetry to the current layer", the polygons whose vertices extended past the symmetry line will be abruptly cut at the exact symmetry line, and the Virtual Mirror Mode preview you see in the viewport will become reality. Lastly, take note of the "mirror snapping" setting above the viewport. If the setting is high, then moving vertices near the symmetry line will easily snap them to the symmetry line. If the setting is low, then snapping effect will be weaker. In any case, it is still possible to extend the vertices past the symmetry line once they have initially been snapped, and this might become confusing because the virtual mirror preview will cover those vertices.

[Jax_Cavalera]

Wow thank you that's a very detailed and clear explanation which makes a lot of sense.

[TimmyZDesign]

Just wanted to let you know (in case you might have missed it elsewhere on these forums) that Andrew Shpagin (primary 3D-Coat developer) is back from vacation. Even though he was on vacation he apparently couldn't resist working on the automatic retopology algorithm! He should be uploading a new experimental beta version of it soon for us to try out! Maybe no more spiral edge loops? (I'm keeping my fingers crossed!)

[Jax_Cavalera]

Hi Timmy, thank you for this update, I had heard word that this was in the works and am really excited to see how it works.  Do you know if we are able to do Autopy on selected regions only without slicing our reference mesh into pieces?