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Looking for Advice on the best method to Detail Models


pgson
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Play with smoothing option in tool option panel if you get "hardening of edges" due to the tesselation, it relaxes the mesh AROUND the radius, it helps to make smoother transition, unfortunately if you use a high value detail you may have to slow down your brushing for the computation to be constant (risk of interpolation break up in the stroke otherwise). What you describe can be attenuated with this setting, but overall it's one of the disadvantage of the dynamic tesselation over subdivision, until Andrew or Raul find a better geo generation algorithm.

Dynamic tesselation offers freeform sculpting, no hassle detailing where needed but the trade-off is more cleanup work as the transition between high density area and lower one are not progressive sometimes. What I tend to do is think with three stages:

 

1) massive shapes, your overall shapes.

2)medium one, the detail one which give character to your sculpt

3) micro detail, pore/wrinkles.

 

If you don't go from one to three you'll get issues in transitional surfaces with low res and HARSH high detail strokes. It's no different than any other approach with regular quad based sculpting: you go from low res to higher, and each level must count other wise you'll lose "charisma" in your sculpt.

 

And that is why imo normal painting is cool but very often used in the wrong way: to sculpt micro detail on barely defined shapes which makes very tight crease/sharp details look out of place and doesn't "sell" the surface.

And when some people which have a bit of experience with standard sculpting are trying to fix that they move to stage 2 in the normal map, and then everything fall appart, you can't do that in that mode it doesn't work.

 

The best advice I would give you to avoid getting in the same spot as you did earlier: start with a pretty low detail value, and be progressive. It's better to not have enough resolution and crank it up a notch than start too high and decimate, you'll get much cleaner surface overall and we'll be able to get very tiny details (if you want to) without killing your computer.

 

Oh, and I forgot: in my sculpt I rarely use pure liveclay brushes, in fact I use only one: crease clay. The rest is surface brushes with removestretching on, Artman presets are good for that: finely tuned rapid2 goes a long way: build, flatten.

I prefer surface + removestretching brushes since they tend to have less issues and it's easier to give the right amount of tesselation (completely relative to the zoom, there's no detail slider and rapid2 is a fairly balanced brush and it's an invaluable asset to equalize a surface plagued with micro wrinkles when used in a low depth setting with a light brushing on a tablet).

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Hey thanks for all of that :) I was actually doing some experimenting and using the clay build/clay brush preset options of the Rapid 2, turning down the depth and changing the brush type, and just lightly going over the model first helps tremendously. It adds a little tessellation without increasing polygons. Then switching to the regular buildup brush to refine things. I've used the crease brush after this and it's behaving, especially using your advice and altering the smooth and detail sliders. I think. I hope. I will be tentatively confident, that this time I might be ok. Here's to a hopefully stress-free sculpt session today.

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New head and upper body for Kain:

 

post-36621-0-19906700-1382653943_thumb.p

 

 

Everything's working out very well this time. The brushes are so smooth, behaving just like I'd hoped. I was able to get his features even closer than before, with the brushes no longer destroying things so harshly, or the reverse, not working hardly at all. The rapid brush adds just the right layer of tessellation the rest of the brushes can work off of. The mesh is at 1.5 million polygons, so much improved from the 10 million monster, that became the 40+ million behemoth. His eye lids, eyebrow crown, middle crown, and ear are currently all seperate pieces, too, so I can have far more control over modeling them. I wanted to do that from the start, but no... I went the hard way.

 

I've just been letting this ride a little bit, planning out the detailing strategy I want to use before I go head-long into it. I am thinking of experimenting with making some alphas for his skin. He doesn't have skin pores I need to add, but more a mix between rusting metal or sloping shale, or granite, it looks like. I want to add that first before adding in the cracks to his skin. Like I did when texturing the low res game version of him. I think that makes more sense.

 

Anyway, this is world's better, so thanks again all who've posted and helped.

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Glad it's working out in the end, don't forget one thing though, to avoid getting other madening issues: there are brushes which don't play nice in the toolset, I STRONGLY recommend using only Artman brushes (he only included safe brushes after countless hours of testing), some liveclay brushes are known to generate broken geometry (for instance wrinkleclay is a real no go, and there are others).

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Thanks, guys :) Very much appreciate that, TimmyZ. I'm glad I decided to stick with it.

 

Yes, I sampled those other brushes and didn't really find them worthwhile, so I'm happy to steer clear of them. I used the Tube clay to help create the folds on the pants, but I'm finding the buildup brush with alphas does most of the job on everything. I have picked the Build brush by accident quite a few times now and found out just how nasty it is, lol.

 

 

A lot of work left to go, but I'll definitely add it to the gallery once I'm done, carloson :) My next goal in all of this will be to get faster :p That's for sure.

Edited by pgson
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  • 2 weeks later...
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Kain's head and body are pretty much detailed. I only have to add the scar on the front and back of him (and I'll probably give him one final pass):

 

post-36621-0-00027000-1383541778_thumb.p

 

post-36621-0-17147200-1383541846_thumb.p

 

post-36621-0-07764400-1383541916_thumb.p

 

Using the bronze with Cavity shader to show the details. It's hard to show them otherwise when there's no color.

 

post-36621-0-09500500-1383541992_thumb.p

 

 

I lost a day of work a few days ago, when I decided to try merging down the detailed eyelids without shoring up the mesh of the head in that section first, then saving without thinking about it. I have previous saves, but that day had to be redone. I was also a bit suborn and tried chopping the head off an earlier version and merging it in, but the boolean intersection message killed my try every time.

 

But, other than that, it's gone well. The head and body, without the separate crown pieces, is 20 million polygons, so it did climb a bit. However, I did add a ton of detail. I used the skin preset, so the Build Clay brush (sorry I doubted it earlier:p) and the regular buildup brush with some rusty rock textures cropped for alphas and brought in for the skin base and then the sharp preset to etch the cracks, and then back and forth until it was what I wanted.

 

After I get the scar complete I'll dive back into the other pieces to add detail to them, and then finally I can get this thing painted.

 

Trying to get every little tiny detail exact on this model sure takes its time. Most other models won't have to have this much scrutiny, or time involved. It's worth it to get it right, though.

Edited by pgson
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Yeah booleans are not really reliable, even less in surface mode (still one of the strong points of voxel mode), you can't have everything I guess.

 

I tend to avoid boolean altogether, if I want to merge things what I do, but it's not always successful, is merge the layers then use liveclay brush with contact detection on, on merge.

Not pretty, nor clean,  but most of the time it gets the job done, and you avoid the mesh corruption.

 

Good work on kain, looks sharp, great attention to detail, but if I may: you can push the features (not talking about the crevices due to aging but more about the face in general), your references are from an era when almost everything was done with texture work, sculpting didn't exist, they couldn't get as deep and sharp looking details as you can now, I would take advantage of that and make him more alive by making more bold strokes (deeper cuts  in the mesh)

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Thanks, BeatKitano :). I probably will push it a bit more in one more pass before I add in the scar. I think using the buildup brush with those textures eats deeper into the mesh faster without adding more polygons, so I'll use a bit more to sink in some areas. I might be also erring on the side of caution from the last mesh using the same settings and it cutting too deep and giving me a lumpy look, especially around the jaw and lip area.

 

chingchong, he's a vampire whose evolved a hardened, almost flaky metallic-looking skin over a couple of thousand years. It's never explicitly said it's metal, or stone, but it's similar in look, at least, to tarnished, flaking metal, or weathered stone. I think it's probably still actual skin, just made harder by his evolution and cracked with browns and greens tarnishing it from his corruption. The artist who originally came up with the idea described it as a golden almost metalic body with a crown he evolved by his sheer will and ambition to be ruler of this land, which is a pretty awesome description. The bronze shader here for showing the model seems to fit this pretty well.

 

Once I complete this model, I want to do one where he was human, before being turned a vampire, and his earlier vampire stages seen, when he didn't have these features. There are also e bunch of different armors and outfits for those other games, too.

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Did a pass over the face and most of the upper crown. I might do a little more on the upper crown area, but this is popping much better. The neck area is a bit soft compared now to this, so I'll tackle that, too, and anything else along the body. It's definitely closer to what I wanted to achieve.

 

post-36621-0-65434200-1383624705_thumb.p

 

Hm, shame though the fidelity on the pic goes down significantly here with the attach file method I've just noticed... I've been trying to avoid uploading so many large pics this way, but I guess I'll have to do it like this instead:

 

4shr.png

Edited by pgson
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Finalized the detail. I see maybe a couple of cracks on the back crown I need to add to, but otherwise, this is about it. I doubt that there's any more I could really add, or etch in, and I now need to add in the scar. Plus, the model here has increased to 33 million. It's especially a problem if the crown pieces are on. To combat the issue that apparently I have to deal with in the large polycount regardless (in order to get this detail with these brushes on my end), I've bought another memory module, which will up my ram to 16 GB from 8. I hope that's enough. I can export the model, after a long while, but with Zbrush not being able to load it, that's useless right now. 3dMax can load it, but I don't think I can texture with that program. I'd love to stay within 3d-Coat for the texturing, but is there some discount for those who already have the educational version upgrading to the full version? I definitely can't shell out close to $300 for a new license.

 

Anyway, here's the update:

 

vlt.png

 

 

hq9f.png

 

 

yqz4.png

 

 

I love what I've been able to achieve, so I'm not about to give up on it. I'll get it finished somehow. I could split the head and body, which might help, but it's still about getting the full obj exported for texturing eventually, if I can't do it to the level I need in 3D-Coat.

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The surface detailing is top notch, but I think you still need to work on a lower level, add more contrast in surface "contact" areas to make the character more interesting.

Here's something I would try to do (maybe not that much but it's just so you see where imho you could add character to Kain):

 

KainUp.gif

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Thanks, BeatKitano :). I figured you were talking about the depth of his features along with the cracks and everything before. However, I'm not trying to revamp the model like that, but to faithfully recreate the GlyphX model as close as possible.

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  • 2 weeks later...
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Been a while. I've been fighting to get this done. Fighitng is the word.

 

First, for posterity: I did indent his features just a tad, as you see those cracks coming down from the center of his eye, those are running along that line under the eye loop (I had to search for the names of those muscle groups, but you get what I mean) and I had that part indented a bit already. It needed a little more to match the original model. That, and a subtle increase on the eyebrow ridge, and a couple other minor and subtle changes. With that, I also completed the scar on his front and back. Did this all a couple of weeks back, and have been in detailing limbo since. More on that in a moment:

 

wxs3.png

 

 

pbwx.png

 

 

 

b9vg.png

 

 

 

This all went fine. However, the model is just huge. I've split it up into parts, because it was over 33 million polygons and it could never be brought into anything. The crown pieces added and it tops ... 57 million. You want to know what the entire model is, all accessories now detailed, or most of them (until I just about had it with doing it in 3D-Coat)? Over 100 million. I think that's pretty excessive, and it's not because I'm doing it the wrong way anymore. On each of the meshes I cleaned the surface after going almost directly into Surface mode with not much in Voxel. I made sure there were no holes. I iterated slowly, built up with the suggested clay build on Rapid 2, or with even the regular buildup brush. I went back in and shored the topology up with either of them on no depth, or the build brush for getting to the fine detailing. The meshes get huge, and they also get lots of holes. Not all of them. The more volume the mesh has, like a thick torso, the less it will get, but even that got a couple. Once the meshes are in the millions, then tens of millions, it takes time, a good/great amount of time, to close holes each time. I'm not talking holes you can see. I am talking invisible ones. I found that using the close hole tool works better a lot of the times if the program is really hanging with the close hole option. Either method takes far too long. Anywhere form a few minutes, to ten to fifteen, and this is with me having more ram. I have 12 GBs now. I thought I was going to have 16, but I forgot this PC came with two 4 GB modules installed, not one 8 GB. Anyway, the holes are killer, as they just take too long to deal with. I've spent more time on that than probably the modeling. Not to mention that the detailing also has its issues. I'm using Artman's skin preset on the build brush for this all. When trying to detail something larger using a texture Alpha of mine, or one in 3D-Coat already, the brush hangs for sometimes five, or more, seconds. The process becomes slow, very, very slow. Bottom line, I don't blame the brushes, but I think somewhere for true micro detailing, something is wrong in the system for optimization. I also think things in that voxel menu like close holes, remove intersections, etc., need further optimization as they just take decades to complete. Sometimes, the program crahses, too. This might be only related to this latest beta, but I recently had the pants mesh with one hole left that not only the program would not close, but it also crashed, saying always that I was out of virtual memory. I've set the virtual memory to 24 GB, and even tried closing the hole on a new file with just the pants mesh loaded -- which at the time was only slightly over a million polygons. It still crashed the same.

 

I'm going to report this ticket with the details. I have to reproduce the crash and get all of the code stuff first.

 

Speaking of that mesh, I brought it into Zbrush and it closed the hole in less than two seconds. That's what needs to happen in the options here. Or, actually, holes shouldn't be created in the first place. I'm using the brushes at minimal depth, or even at no depth if I use them to simply even out and increase the topology and I'm still getting them, no matter what I do. That should not be. This mesh was so annoying, it actually had tears in it and explosions. I got so fed up, I cut off the parts once, then again, and rebuilt the thing, and then did it again, until those damn tears stopped. I detailed it, by God. But that was about the end of me and 3D-Coat where fine detailing is concerned. Because of this all, I have decided I will do the detailing in Zbrush from now on. I tested it and oh man, it's instant fast. No problems, no holes, no stress... No time consumed with everything but what I am sculpting on. Also, the meshes come in a little more than half the size I export them at with absolutely no loss of fidelity there (I've checked very thoroughly), and I cancel every time reducing them on export. I just mention this because there seems to be an awful lot of wasted polygons happening that aren't, obviously, needed.

 

I am a little sad, because I want 3D-Coat to succeed and support it fully (not just because it's great otherwise, but because I am very happy with the company philosophy, and with the people I've met here in my short time). I'm going to still use it to build the model up to the point that it needs detailing. I've just wasted more nights, all-nighters, and most of the past 2 months since the first mesh was practically ruined trying. I mean, I gave it more of a try than any real sane person should. However, this is how it is. I love the ease of the building in the program, but for me, on my end (make note that I realize I'm in the minority with problems like this, and that it isn't happening for most of you), it's way too much stress, time (time wasted is the killer here), and aggravation to continue putting myself through. Everyone, I hope, understands where I am coming from on that, that I am in no way against the program, in general. Like I said, it's going to be what I use to create the sculpts still; no doubt about it. But everyone has to find what works best for them, and using this workflow now, I hope, will be what's best for me.

 

 

Anyway, I feel like I just needed to make sure I wasn't misunderstood. Now, speaking of sculpts, I have some more I've done while either waiting on the memory to arrive, or after particularly frustrating periods with the above mesh:

 

The Soul Reaver:

 

9l4z.png

 

 

Made to the exact proportions of the original model (lined it up in the sculpt window to make sure):

 

SR1-Promotional-SoulReaver.jpg

 

gv0d.png

 

 

1e05.png

 

 

I was able to upgrade the bottom of it to really show off that this could be an actual skull used in the forging process:

 

 

o4q1.png

 

 

 

And I've also taken the elder vampire Kain above and started the sculpt of him when he was still human:

 

 

c78c.png

 

 

 

0tqh.png

 

 

 

Using the Lamblight Depth settings BeatKitano had in his thread, modifying it a bit. I can finally see some decent rendering out of the program also now that I realize AO and DOF need to be off entirely. Here, I'm able to add more of those features Beat mentioned above to make him seem more "alive." Since he's human and his face isn't the hardened almost mask it becomes thousands of years later.

 

 

The ears aren't sculpted yet, and part of the hair blob is overlaying them. They're not really pointy. Funny, they need to be when he's turned into a vampire, heh.

 

Other things aren't done, like the hands. I need to offset the abs slightly so they aren't completely symmetrical, that type of thing, but I took his design and kept his features here matching where possible on the body, or giving the hint that what he becomes could have come from this starting point. Looking forward to making his various armors. I'm waiting on an answer on the ZBrush forums about how to possibly reduce my file size even more, as Zbrush will not load its own file on my system if it goes over exactly 2 GB. Decimation Master did a fantastic job reducing the model parts and preserving the details, but it's still 1.75 right now. Little much if I have to texture. Meanwhile, I can keep modeling these other things.

 

 

I do want to finish completely one model soon, eash :p

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Thanks for sharing all of this with us! I appreciate all of the time you put into writing your posts. I think your decision to use 3D-Coat and Zbrush together is a good one. I still use both of them myself.

It is overall a good idea to use the strengths of multiple software packages instead of focusing on only using one. The only reason that anybody should limit themselves to using specific tools is because they have no other choice (for example a studio might have an established pipeline using specific software, which cannot be changed, or a freelance artist cannot afford to buy Maya, so he uses Blender instead). But if you have the option to use different tools, then use any or all of the ones which work best for the task at hand.

I think also that a lot of it has to do with personal taste. Some people just like to use certain tools because it somehow just feels right to them, and not necessarily because it is the most logical choice. In many ways I use 3D-Coat simply because I like to use it, I ENJOY it, and that feeling is actually very important to me. Sure Zbrush might do some things better, but 3D-Coat just feels like home, so I will always try to use it as much as I can before I give in and switch to something else. I completely understand how you were so unwilling to let go and switch over to Zbrush for the detail work. But Zbrush ain't really so bad, she's not my favorite, but I got love for her too! I hope you feel the same.

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:) Thanks, TimmyZ. Your post there is completely how I'm viewing things. I also notice that Zbrush seemed easier to navigate after I've used 3D-Coat for a bit. I'm working on human Kain some more in 3D-Coat today, but I plan on finally finishing elder vampire Kain's details tomorrow, or later tonight getting started on it. Next I'll have to learn texturing in Zbrush. It's a great thing there are tutorials in the world, lol

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  • 4 months later...
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Updating this. I wound up having a major hard time trying to get this all working. Chopping the model up in Zbrush, I went about trying to get it pieced back together again. Had a crach course in Zbrush's issues, used Zremesher and 3D-Coat to retpo it, then back to Zbrush to reproject the details. The highest I could go in subdivisions still wasn't enough to reach the detail level I had in 3D-Coat. I discovered the projection brush in HD geo mode could do it, though a painstaking process. It would not come back to haunt me until much later that I followed the description in their online Doc, rather than the video. In the Doc, it basically tells you to go into HD Geometry divisions if you can't go any higher on normal, but it doesn't specify to go into this earlier in your divisions, like the 1-5 million point, as the video tutorial says. So, memory issues, crashes, and inability to get normal and displacement maps is what I wound up with far later after painting and uving the model.

 

It then took me quite a time to figure out how to get the maps, which program and methos was best to get the maps, and all of that.

 

It's been an experience...

 

I'm about done. I thought I was, or fooled myself to thinking I was. However, the proportions on his face aren't quite right, and the skin is a little too saturated golden. So, this is almost done... Just thought I'd update since it's been dormant forever. Finished the model in Zbrush, retopoed and uved in 3D-Coat, some with Zremesher, smoothed normals in Maya, polypainted, then Photoshop for tweaks and other maps, metalness (or specular, depending on the item), gloss, etc. Rendered in Marmoset Toolbag 2:

 

 

JNnYk3z.png

 

 

XsprqSf.png

 

 

WRXLyGS.png

 

 

gLrhAK9.jpg

 

 

RD3eDRc.png

 

 

CvMlGtg.png

 

NcIFCmd.png

 

 

2wjuy0s.png

 

 

uKCFu8p.png

 

 

Hhdz0q7.png

 

 

XyF40nQ.jpg

 

 

 

szjBbiF.jpg

 

 

 

XkpoAbp.png

 

 

7sVKJlu.png

 

 

 

Final Sculpt in Zbrush:

 

azAjJLf.png

 

 

Ev82n1U.png

 

 

1L4LkLX.png

 

 

hLUrMBc.png

 

 

D4ta5PX.png

 

 

8RFqgwP.png

 

 

dgDuOPn.png

 

 

 

 

Little barrage covering months of banging my head against walls :p I need to fix the face, then maybe this can finally be finished...

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  • 2 weeks later...
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After feedback from fellow fans, many final adjustments made. Shrunk the neck, his crown pieces, worked on his face. Worked on lessening his skintone saturation, worked on hue. Altered proportions on his guantlets, his pants, elongated his legs so he's a full 7 heads tall, modeled an entirely new cape to be more folded over up top, wider at the bottom, fixed his earring's shape and color.

 

Final renders:

 

jAKKKkF.png

 

 

diLOf46.png

 

 

wWKDmx0.png

 

 

Final comparison shots to the original games' model:

 

HpZGX4f.png

 

 

8ZimvCB.png

 

 

jkQGEBP.png

 

 

And with that, this model if finally DONE.

 

I can finally add him to the finished work gallery and move on. I'll finish his Soul Reaver sword and pose him with it.

 

Thanks for the help along the way, and sorry again for so many large pics. Here's to greener pastures from here on out :)

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Nicely done! I certainly admire your patience on this one! If I start to go beyond a week on a project I start giving it second thoughts.... I spent about 6 weeks once, and vowed never again!  

Now you have it "done" It would be nice to see an action pose! 

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:) Yes, that is coming next. I need to rig him and put the sword in his hand, once I'm done the sword.

 

Yeah, I am taking away from it all that I jumped into the pool head-first, basically. I never modeled before, and this was a completely new world I stepped into and there was a lot to learn. I didn't pick an easy starter project, either. I probably am still doing some things the hard/wrong way, but hopefully I'll avoid the huge pitfalls I stepped into with this going forward.

 

There was one moment I did almost quit this. When I finished the sculpt and the polypaint on the head and body, then found out that Zbrush didn't like me going into HD Geometry so late, and so it crashed every time I attempted to get any map other than the diffuse out of it. I searched and searched for how to solve this. Anyway, after all of the other problems, this was about the last straw. If I couldn't get the model out of Zbrush, it was worthless to me. I figured someone was trying to tell me to forget it. But, anyway, it worked. I never, ever, ever expected it to take anywhere near this long, though.

 

Thanks, man.

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Very well done!

This thread makes very interesting reading and I can imagine how frustrated you must have got at many points in the process.

You stuck with it though and came through with an amazingly accurate reproduction that really improves on the original.

 

I also can't wait to see some action poses and facial expressions. Although facial rigging can be a complete bitch.  ;)

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  • 3 months later...
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Since this sculpt started heavily in 3D-Coat, I thought I should post where I am at on it. Human Kain's progress:

 

 

human-kain-armor-BPR_Render.jpg

 

 

 

human-kain-armor-close-BPR.jpg

 

 

 

 

Just the blocking on most of the pieces before I retopologize it all and refine it.

 

 

And here's his detailed sculpt with where I am on the diffuse texture:

 

 

Kain-without-Stubble-color.jpg

 

 

Hair is Fibermesh right now. I'm trying to block out some stubble for him, too. It's a work in progress and feels too much right now.

 

 

Kain-with-Stubble-color.jpg

 

 

 

Kain-3-quater-color.jpg

 

 

 

Kain-stubble-3-quater-color.jpg

 

 

 

The head and body with the arms separate. Most of the arms are never seen, but I want a cohesive form to work from. His body is only going to be used when he's turned into a vampire.

 

Kain-front-color.jpg

 

 

Kain-chest-color.jpg

 

 

 

Detailed hands:

 

 

Kain-hands-hd-1-color.jpg

 

 

Kain-hands-hd-2-color.jpg

 

 

Without the paint and hair:

 

hand-outer-detail-pre-paint.jpg

 

 

hand-inner-detail-pre-paint.jpg

 

 

 

 

What I am hoping works, as I've seen online is hopefully possible, is to take the Fibermesh and export it as Maya curves, then convert the curves in Maya to polygon strips/cards for the various hair sections, so I can render his hair in something like Cryengine. I wonder if anyone has attempted this, or can think of a better way?

 

 

Anyway, his skin is mostly done. I need to further add moles, splotches, scars, and tweak it out. I'm shelving him for a bit right now, though, because I'm doing a Lieutenant Raziel sculpt for the 15th anniversary of Soul Reaver 1 that's coming up in a couple of weeks. At least I hope to have the preliminary sculpted features done by then.

Edited by pgson
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