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Ugly Baking and wrong Export


Malo
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Hi

 

I get some weird results on baking and after exporting my gun.

 

Lets start with some pics and my results.

 

First of all my Retopo and UVs

post-24378-0-03097300-1403193031_thumb.j

Looks good so far.

 

Then when i try to bake my gun in surface mode.

post-24378-0-27981100-1403193038_thumb.j

You see, i get these white artifacts and the normals come out realy bad. Left circle on the gunpipe.

 

Then i switch to voxelmode and bake it again,

post-24378-0-83309100-1403193045_thumb.j

Looks much better now. No artifacts and a much better normalmap.

 

But the normal behavior is realy bad.

post-24378-0-52975300-1403193053_thumb.j

You see, the shapes of my model are not staight down, they get realy curvy on some areas.

 

Sure, i am not happy about that curvy stuff, but i give it a try and continue my work. Form the right angle that curvy stuff looks ok.

I textured my model and export it. After i importet my model in Substance Designer or Blender i must see that the textures are disortet.

Take a look at this.

 

3D-Coat - Looks as it should

post-24378-0-83889000-1403193060_thumb.j

Blender or Substance Designer - Curvy

post-24378-0-71985300-1403193070_thumb.j

 

I never run in that problems as i did with this gun.

Why these artifacts and ugly normals on Surfacemode baking, and why are the textures disortet after export.

Any ideas whats going wrong on my side.

 

The only different thing that i did, was a complede fresh install of 3d coat V4.08B befor starting with that gun and i startet in Surfacemode.

Any help would be nice.

 

Regards Malo

 

 

 

 

 

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This waves in the normal map appears to be a scan cage problem... I am assuming you are using Names Correspondence to bake voxel / surface layers to one uv set.

 

The problem lies in that some areas of the model, the cage is very close to the mesh which is what you need and other areas are far way which causes the scanning rays to produce the incorrect results . One possible reason for the wavy effect in the normal map. A scanning cage (inner and outer) needs to be as close as possible to the model

 

In 3DCoat we can not at the present time adjust each object's (vox or surface layer) scanning cage (retopo mesh) when using Names Correspondence. We only can set the inner and outer cage for the overall model pieces. You will need to use Spheres of Influence to get the cage to fit the areas that are not scanning properly.

 

I uploaded a very simple example using Names Correspondence just to show visually what I mean.

The large sphere 's scanning cage is closer to the surface and the small sphere cage is further away. If I make the inner and outer settings to fit the small sphere, the large sphere cage is now incorrect. Here I would set the large sphere 's cage and then use a sphere of influence on the small sphere.

 

The other method is to bake each object with it's own uv set one at a time (hiding the other vox / surface layers). You then can adjust each cage. After all objects have been merged to the paint,then in the uv room move all uv islands to one uv set. Next use PackUV2 because it will repack your uv islands without flipping or rotating. If you flip and rotate your uv islands that will create problems in your normal map after you apply your uv set in the uv room. Once you are done applying the uv set, delete the unused ones.

This method does give you more control over each object's scanning cage but is more time consuming.

 

Here is Ben Mathis information on the wavy problem and why it's happens. You can google it as well. Ben talks about the scanning cage problem near the bottom of the page.

http://www.poopinmymouth.com/tutorial/normal_workflow_2.htm

Plus here is more information at Polycount. It is a good read very informative and covering not only scan cage problems but how our low polygon geometry layout can affect the ray scanning of the normal vectors when baking from high to a low polygon mesh.

http://wiki.polycount.com/NormalMap/#Solving_Wavy_Lines

You are an experience user but I myself keep this link handy when I run into normal map problems.

http://wiki.polycount.com/NormalMap/

 

Wavy normal maps is not just a 3DC problem but a general problem in any application.

 

 

Here is Abn Ranger's video on the Bake Settings Dialog tool panel.

post-518-0-51290600-1403200712_thumb.jpg

Edited by digman
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Thanks for the reply.

I know most of that stuff, only that cage problem is new for me.

 

After some quick tests, I dont came to a good result.

The magazin of my gun is still disortet after export and that wavy stuff will always apear.

It makes not realy a difference if i use inner and outer shell with 1 or 10 (sure with 1 i get black areas, but thats normal) or if i use these balls in some areas.

 

Not sure what i could do.

Maybe i should start from scratch.

 

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I figured you knew a lot of this but it is good information for others. You might need to adjust your low polygon geometry flow as per one of the articles in the link. There is no more I can really add here but I hoped it has helped some.

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Just a suggestion, but try adding a few more divisions on the retopo mesh at the areas that are wavy, and perhaps separate the UVs for them so that they are their own islands with less distortion.

 

As in the attached image, make the red parts their own islands and add more divisions (blue parts).

 

Not sure if it'll fix it, but worth a try!

post-38517-0-49106100-1403208503_thumb.p

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Yes, thats exactly what i try to do.

First of all, get rid of that Surfacemode, and then i would create a new retopo (less lowpoly) and new UVs.

 

Anyway, thanks to all for the help.

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Little update:

 

I have a new Retopo and new UVs, different object groups and pure voxel mode.

 

post-24378-0-40182600-1403305736_thumb.j post-24378-0-11909900-1403305745_thumb.j

 

Version 1 has 3800 tris, now Version 2 have 6200 tris.

Much more polys as i want for a lowpoly modell, but with that count i could get rid of most of the problems.

Its sad that i cant go realy lowpoly without that problems.

Edited by Malo
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  • 1 month later...
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Ok, i am still upset with that ugly baking.

I always run into the same problem if i did some Lowpoly stuff. Now i found the problem.

 

Let explain what i did

 

I have startet with a simple cube and cut in four cones

post-24378-0-27187600-1406907307_thumb.j post-24378-0-27971000-1406907314_thumb.j

 

Then i create a simple 6 sided retopo.

post-24378-0-65823100-1406907320_thumb.j

 

And i bake it. I choose a small inner cage to get a better contrast.

post-24378-0-31328600-1406907328_thumb.j

You see on the read lines that the outer ring and inner ring is not symmetrical.

 

Now i did the same with a subdivision and a smothing group.

post-24378-0-39678400-1406907335_thumb.j

 

And i bake it again

post-24378-0-70844700-1406907342_thumb.j

You see that the inner and outer circle are now symmetrical.

 

That means for me, and this is the problem i always run into it, as lowpoly you work as ugly and incorrectly the baking is.

This is ridicules for game assets.

 

Sure you could say, then use always subdivision and smoothing groups, but i have to say that wont works.

If i have a more complex shape like this.

post-24378-0-63271400-1406907348_thumb.j

You get much uglier and weird result. Like this.

 

post-24378-0-71769900-1406907354_thumb.j post-24378-0-66710200-1406907360_thumb.j

You see the smoothgroups split the edges and the subdivision creates a circle out of the rectangle.

Take a look into the wireframe and you see what i mean.

 

What we need is an option for simple subdivide and not only a catmull subdivide.

Did anybody know a solution for that? It sucks if i have always to switch to an external app to subdivide there and reimport it back to 3d coat for a good baking qualitiy.

 

 

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(...)

What we need is an option for simple subdivide and not only a catmull subdivide.

Did anybody know a solution for that? It sucks if i have always to switch to an external app to subdivide there and reimport it back to 3d coat for a good baking qualitiy.

If you turn off Auto Snap, post-12523-0-67766800-1406913854_thumb.g then you can subdivide retopo mesh as much as you like without making it snap to a surface of a reference mesh. This is the same as simple subdivision.

post-12523-0-94021300-1406913858_thumb.j

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@ajz3d

Sure, if i subdivide my model i have more polys, but then i am not able to export a lowpoly model.

And in your first picture i see the problem again. If the baking would be correct, the grandient color of your hole would be symmetrical.

On yours it is on all 4 sides different.

 

File is in the attachments.

The second is lost, i have delete it.

 

@carlosan

Sure you subdivide it, but at the end i dont have a 6 sided cube.

Like the same as ajz3d explain with subdiviide.

 

I need the lowpoly, not a mid or highpoly. but i cant bake with the lowpoly, that gives ugly results.

I cant use the subdivide option, because is makes everything to a rounded object, thats good for organic stuff but not for hardsurface.

bake.7z

Edited by Malo
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Nice a idea, but still wont works.

On easy shapes it is ok, but on a more complex it wont works.

 

First of all, i lost all of my fine details.

Befor

post-24378-0-79344300-1406932962_thumb.j

After

post-24378-0-03542400-1406932971_thumb.j

 

Second is, a ugly export.

Befor

post-24378-0-28811800-1406932976_thumb.j

After

post-24378-0-05589100-1406932982_thumb.j

 

Baked on 4096 and maximum polycount.

 

 

 

 

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I normally just got straight to xNormal. Adds more work, takes a bit to get used to, but also give you more control and reliable results :)

Cheers

One question. Is it possible to explode the mesh in xNormal and bake in a similar manner that 3D Coat's "Use name correspondence for baking" works? Or doing it manually one object after another and then combining the normal map is the only choice there is?
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@carlosan

Thanks for the help.

The new options dont realy help on this problem.

 

I know Xnormal solve that problem, but this is not the goal to switching Apps to do some jobs that should be easily done in 3d coat.

Sure if there is no way, i have to redefine my pipeline, and this sucks.

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One question. Is it possible to explode the mesh in xNormal and bake in a similar manner that 3D Coat's "Use name correspondence for baking" works? Or doing it manually one object after another and then combining the normal map is the only choice there is?

Sorry I don't know "Use name correspondence for baking" rays will only stopped at the corresponding/match object? That's neat.

I guess you'll have to do it by hand if you want to isolate low objects from catching details or other high objects.

That would be a nice request though, allow the baking be done in sets,

Cheers

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  • 5 months later...
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The thread pegged my interest again, I did some further research on the normal map waves problem... I also found a few retopo mesh tricks to help the baking for the normal map projection.

I have been getting together with Malo through Skype to go over the problems he was having...

 

The model here is a 16 sided mesh with some ridges with no bevels. Better to have a few bevels to soften the vertex normal direction angles. In this case I wanted to see how well of a normal map I could get without the bevels. Normal map baking likes them bevels but I starved it of them... LOL.

 

No distress sculpting put on the model to help hide waves.

Model 206 quads, 412 Tris. Modelled in Wings3D.

Baking;

Baked for PPP

No subdivision

2k map.

 

Here are the results, the model is positioned to revel waves not hide them.

1st picture is the imported hardsurface model in surface mode.

2nd picture on the top left is the normal map, top right, is the metal PBR material... Bottom left is the model without the normal map. Bottom right is more of a top down view.

3rd picture is with a plastic material that will highlight waves.

Last picture is the wireframe view in the paint room.

 

On such a low polygon model you will never get rid of every single wave on a non beveled model but it is a 99% improvement...

post-518-0-38004700-1423090503_thumb.png

post-518-0-18524800-1423090517_thumb.png

post-518-0-14671800-1423090535_thumb.png

post-518-0-31405100-1423090551_thumb.png

Edited by digman
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