[Trello Vote] Remove Tweak Room - Use surface tools to tweak the paint model

[Carlosan]

Remove this room at all. Use surface tools to tweak the paint model.

 

 

 

Topic added to share opinions

 

Ty ! 

[Carlosan]

what about using tweak room to create morphs ?

[AbnRanger]

Abso-freakin-lutely! Lets...GIT-R-DONE!

 

[Tony Nemo]

what about using tweak room to create morphs ?

+1?

[PolyHertz]

Voted.

[wilson66]

what about using tweak room to create morphs ?

 

THIS. The edits in the tweak room should not alter the geometry, but create (multiple) morph targets instead.

[AbnRanger]

THIS. The edits in the tweak room should not alter the geometry, but create (multiple) morph targets instead.

Negative. It's always been there to augment the image-based sculpting by modifying the geometry....including basic transform tools (MOVE, SCALE, ROTATE). You can already create multiple morph targets when in MicroVertex mode.Just create the corresponding layers in the Paint Room (can bring those into the Tweak Room via the WINDOWS > POP UP menu), sculpt your phonemes/visemes and turn/off the layer

 

[AbnRanger]

We just need the Surface mode tools mirrored there. Including consistency between the TRANSFORM tools. Adding the Pose tool from the Voxel Room, into the Tweak Room, would be the Bees knees.

[Javis]

Negative. It's always been there to augment the image-based sculpting by modifying the geometry....including basic transform tools (MOVE, SCALE, ROTATE). You can already create multiple morph targets when in MicroVertex mode.Just create the corresponding layers in the Paint Room (can bring those into the Tweak Room via the WINDOWS > POP UP menu), sculpt your phonemes/visemes and turn/off the layer

 

 

That method is broken. Has been for over a year and half. It needs revamped with the entire tweak room, the tweak and retopology rooms should be merged. Morph map creation, modeling, retopo, etc. should be done there.

 

Really what should happen, is the "room" paradigm should be abandoned for a single scene outline panel, and you can use whatever tools you need on whatever you want. A mesh is a mesh, no distinguishing a retopo mesh from a paint or sculpt mesh. Do any of those things on any of those meshes as you need. That's my vision at least.

[artman]

That method is broken. Has been for over a year and half. It needs revamped with the entire tweak room, the tweak and retopology rooms should be merged. Morph map creation, modeling, retopo, etc. should be done there.

 

Really what should happen, is the "room" paradigm should be abandoned for a single scene outline panel, and you can use whatever tools you need on whatever you want. A mesh is a mesh, no distinguishing a retopo mesh from a paint or sculpt mesh. Do any of those things on any of those meshes as you need. That's my vision at least.

Personnaly ,I see rooms as UI configs shortcuts that I dont have to load....I never retopo while I sculpt ....and I dont paint while I retopo either...So if all tools were to be in one "room" then I would probably make myself different Ui layouts for the task I want to do that I would have to load manually while now 3Dcoat do it for me .I  mean 3DCoat is such a jungle already so having all tools accessible on screen at all time is purely impossible... just my opinion here.

[BeatKitano]

Personnaly ,I see rooms as UI configs shortcuts that I dont have to load....I never retopo while I sculpt ....and I dont paint while I retopo either...So if all tools were to be in one "room" then I would probably make myself different Ui layouts for the task I want to do that I would have to load manually while now 3Dcoat do it for me .I  mean 3DCoat is such a jungle already so having all tools accessible on screen at all time is purely impossible... just my opinion here.

You've shifted my ways of thinking here. Never have thought this way. In a sense I agree: I would probably do different layout too... defeating the purpose of a "single room" concept...

Imo if you think it this way what needs to be done is work on the cohesiveness of the interface and their modular panel: lessen the "feeling" of separated spaces by making those room connected by default by showing the usefull item in each one. Not having to call "panels from another room" (for instance the not so well named voxtree)

[Psmith]

If Blender has a primary weakness, it is its "one room" layout.  Putting everything in one interface "scene" or room has the disadvantage of requiring too many hidden elements - hiding behind pop-out panels and right click menus (like all the big gun software products provide).  Modo suffers from this over-crowding and function hiding, as well.  The more complicated and "option rich" a program is - the more choices you require - and the more interface elements you necessarily need.

 

Pretty soon, the idea of a user interface will have almost no meaning.  Why not just go back to a computer terminal with a textual command input?  (I exaggerate, here, to make a point).  In actuality, it is much faster to give a computer textual (abbreviated) commands than to point and click on things.  This is why the incredibly "feature rich" application, Blender, works best by using single key, keyboard shortcuts.  It's really a regression to the computer terminal and abbreviated textual input paradigm.

 

As Artman noted, you can customize and abbreviate commands - and rearrange the interface in this way, already, with the existing version of 3D-Coat - but this requires a manual construction by the user - which, in turn, de-standardizes the "user interface".

 

In my opinion, everything that deviates from the original premise of the user interface (think Xerox Parc and the mouse) - is a regression to the age of terminals, textual input and the memorization of commands and functions.

 

 

Greg Smith

[artman]

You've shifted my ways of thinking here. Never have thought this way. In a sense I agree: I would probably do different layout too... defeating the purpose of a "single room" concept...

Imo if you think it this way what needs to be done is work on the cohesiveness of the interface and their modular panel: lessen the "feeling" of separated spaces by making those room connected by default by showing the usefull item in each one. Not having to call "panels from another room" (for instance the not so well named voxtree)

 

I never really voiced what I truly thoughts about 3DCoat ui because I feel that whatever what the other users want I'll still be able to do whatever I want with it via customization.

 

First,Im here since early V3...so I remember how it was in the beginning and I must say...sorry for saying it...I really like the actual UI...I think its much less flawed,clogged than some of you think...I mean compared to a hell of other apps. ..(and please nobody talks me about mudbox...mudbox doesnt have a third of 3Dcoat  tools and workflow/approaches...)

It does not mean Im not open to changes and I am really precious about current ui state..it just means that Im never pissed about it.   It really does not frustrate me or annoy me at any point in my work at this point...

When I go back to Zbrush I can'T even navigate between the subtool and geometry palette more than 5 minutes before getting annoyed...

Its also probably why I never really jumped in most UI related debates /discussion that have been happening those last 2 years...

 

that said...they are of course a few things I always wanted changed and here they are.

 

1) Make undocking not always on ..only activated through a menu or preferences...(like zb)

I dont really move around windows while I work(I dont know who does that really..) ...but the amount of time lost to accidentally undocking a window is incalculable and will probably never be given back to me...

 

2) Throw all UV tools out of retopo room... (who does UVS at the same time of doing retopo!!?...)

Imo it only hinder the flow of the retopo tools accessibility and is also very strange to new users..

 

3)ALL Uv tools should be in UV room. All baking should be made in UV rooms.

Uv room could load mesh from retopo room in one click.

UV room could load mesh from paint room with one click  and update with one click.

This is also where you would load external meshes to be uved (first reflex for new users)

 

4)Tweak room and Sculpt room should be merged and subd sculpting using non-LC surface tools allowed on Uved  meshes while preserving vertex order and uvs on export...

 

5) Render room is small enough to be removed

(basically its just one panel..of course it will probably get more complex in the future but never to the extent of deserving an entire layout imo)

Rendering could be done directly from Paint room and sculpt room.

 

thats all...

 

But Im never really gonna fight for those changes,Im pretty sure some of them will find its way in whatever overhaul will happen in the future anyway.

[AbnRanger]

Personnaly ,I see rooms as UI configs shortcuts that I dont have to load....I never retopo while I sculpt ....and I dont paint while I retopo either...So if all tools were to be in one "room" then I would probably make myself different Ui layouts for the task I want to do that I would have to load manually while now 3Dcoat do it for me .I  mean 3DCoat is such a jungle already so having all tools accessible on screen at all time is purely impossible... just my opinion here.

The problem with Rooms is that it creates functional chasms between other rooms and makes it impossible or a real hassle to get assets to and from one to the other. There would still be Tabs for different toolset layouts (Paint, UV, Sculpt, Topo, Render)...just no separation in environments. This way if a user imports a model into the scene to texture paint and decides they'd like to do some Voxel sculpting on it, they don't have to go through a huge and hidden workaround process to do that and get everything back in the Paint workspace.

 

In Mudbox, you simply have a button for SCULPT and one for PAINT. It's so convenient to just click on one and work > click the other and keep working....with no break in your workflow. The arrangement in 3D Coat now, forces the user to do a lot of pre-planning and strict adherence to it's inherent workflow. If you deviate from that, it requires a lot of workarounds.

 

One environment, one Outliner panel, but with tabbed layouts. That should serve everyone's wishes

[PolyHertz]

A 'one room layout' can work, but it needs to be completely modular in design. Everything should be drag-droppable, menus, sub-menus, buttons, etc.

There's nothing wrong with room 'presets', but users should be able to create a room that will handle any/all of there needs from scratch if they so desire

Realistically though the 3DC UI would need to undergo a massive number of changes for it to be practical.

[BeatKitano]

Problem is still the same (To AbnRanger):

 

One outliner: different representation of the type of item (voxel model/surface model/perpixel painting model/microvertices painting model/surface painting model/retopo mesh/reference mesh) this is gonna be messy. 

If we go this road (and I'm not saying we shouldn't, I for a long time wanted to do just that but I'm not sure it's the right thing to do): we'll have to make clear representations, a lot of them, the outliner will be full VERY quickly, resulting in a loong list even with nesting system.

I agree conversion are a problem you can't do multiple things at once easily sometimes. But honestly: if you want to produce fruits, you don't poor water in a pot, then put the plant, then poor the soild over it all and hope all goes well.

Having freedom is great (painting on surface model serves no purpose but you can do it and have preview for instance), but you still need a process to make something. Imo the room are a way to make the steps clear.

The "All-inclusive" outliner will only get in the way of understanding the principe of 3d content production and will not make the task any easier for the more advanced users.

 

What needs to be done is make all the room more cohesive, Javis did a good job on the semantics, I think this should continue on the ui item themselves and their place in the rooms.

[artman]

I just cant fathom what a monster a single layout 3Dcoat would be...Im not sure people who talks about it truly see how scary it would be..

Mudbox is already starting to be confusing and Andrew adds enough features to warrant an annual mudbox update every months haha...

[AbnRanger]

I never really voiced what I truly thoughts about 3DCoat ui because I feel that whatever what the other users want I'll still be able to do whatever I want with it via customization.

 

Fist,Im here since early V3...so I remember how it was in the beginning and I must say...sorry for saying it...I really like the actual UI...I think its much less flawed,clogged than some of you think...I mean compared to a hell of other apps. ..(and please nobody talks me about mudbox...mudbox doesnt have a third of 3Dcoat  tools and workflow/approaches...)

It does not mean Im not open to changes and I am really precious about current ui state..it just means that Im never pissed about it.   It really does not frustrate me or annoy me at any point in my work at this point...

When I go back to Zbrush I can'T even navigate between the subtool and geometry palette more than 5 minutes before getting annoyed...

Its also probably why I never really jumped in most UI related debates /discussion that have been happening those last 2 years...

 

that said...they are of course a few things I always wanted changed and here they are.

 

1) Make undocking not always on ..only activated through a menu or preferences...(like zb)

I dont really move around windows while I work(I dont know who does that really..) ...but the amount of time lost to accidentally undocking a window is incalculable and will probably never be given back to me...

 

2) Throw all UV tools out of retopo room... (who does UVS at the same time of doing retopo!!?...)

Imo it only hinder the flow of the retopo tools accessibility and is also very strange to new users..

 

3)ALL Uv tools should be in UV room. All baking should be made in UV rooms.

Uv room could load mesh from retopo room in one click.

UV room could load mesh from paint room with one click  and update with one click.

This is also where you would load external meshes to be uved (first reflex for new users)

 

4)Tweak room and Sculpt room should be merged and subd sculpting using non-LC surface tools allowed on Uved  meshes while preserving vertex order and uvs on export...

 

5) Render room is small enough to be removed

(basically its just one panel..of course it will probably get more complex in the future but never to the extent of deserving an entire layout imo)

Rendering could be done directly from Paint room and sculpt room.

 

thats all...

 

But Im never really gonna fight for those changes,Im pretty sure some of them will find its way in whatever overhaul will happen in the future anyway.

I like a lot of those ideas, Artman, and for what it's worth, Mudbox has added Retopo and can add whatever other tools 3D Coat has without a major restructuring of it's UI. It's UI has always impressed me for it's cleanness and simplicity. 3D Coat's UI can be pretty close with a little reorganization (ie.,moving all tool options/parameters to the Tool Options panel), and removing the real barriers that exist between rooms.

 

I think the current Room/Workspace is fine....but again, it's the real partitions the app creates that I don't like. For example and as you stated, all UV tools should be located in one workspace. 3D Coat forces the user to work in two...and it creates a lot of confusion for new users. The best example, as you also mentioned is Surface mode tools literally separated from low poly meshes (in the Paint and Tweak Rooms). I think we all want mostly the same thing

[BeatKitano]

To Artman:

 

That could be handled with auto showing/hiding panels depending on the selected item. But that thought is a bit scary too: having the UI "jump" and change when you select another part of your project... not sure.

As a matter of fact: you either need constant going back and forth between different "room" to work on your project: and you'll have a jumpy ui that will make working in 3dc very unintuitive. Or you don't, and then room separation is definitely the smarter way.

 

I'm like Artman at this point: I don't know. A few years back I was all behind the outliner idea. Now I'm a bit schyzophrenic and I'm not sure it's a good idea at all. But like Artman: I won't fight for an idea or another both could potentialy work, it all depends on the good will of Andrew: 

 

If he wants to take the time to totally rethink all the ui system or not. But that won't work if it's not a complete rethinking and just a patch job. That I'm sure.

[Carlosan]

tweak room is deprecated and can be joined to another room without user loose functions, i agree.

 

everything in one room, i dont know.

 

One room need 

- Main menu bar

- Shelf bar

- Main toolbar

- Floating windows

to make it usable.

 

Rooms use a navigation concept that i like: TABS.

 

but, what about layouts / workspaces ?

 

the design of the interface is organized by the workflow required to access the tools needed for the job, to ensure users access the most information with the least amount of interactions. 

[AbnRanger]

To Artman:

 

That could be handled with auto showing/hiding panels depending on the selected item. But that thought is a bit scary too: having the UI "jump" and change when you select another part of your project... not sure.

As a matter of fact: you either need constant going back and forth between different "room" to work on your project: and you'll have a jumpy ui that will make working in 3dc very unintuitive. Or you don't, and then room separation is definitely the smarter way.

No, it won't. If you are sculpting on a mesh, it's rare that you'd be jumping back and forth between sculpt and paint, and it would be no different than clicking on the room tabs now

[BeatKitano]

No, it won't. If you are sculpting on a mesh, it's rare that you'd be jumping back and forth between sculpt and paint, and it would be no different than clicking on the room tabs now

Then that's what I'm thinking: we don't need one room and one outliner for all. We need simpler/better bridges between said rooms. And shortcuts to simply switch between rooms.

 

The idea with the outliner is to use all items as parts of a single project,removing the need to manage their type (the bridge parts of rooms). I say we don't need that we simply need to make the transition between rooms transparent. The result is the same, only the idea of being "boxed in" an UI mode is there, and with a little reorganization it could disappear.

[AbnRanger]

tweak room is deprecated and can be joined to another room without user loose functions, i agree.

 

everything in one room, i dont know.

 

One room need 

- Main menu bar

- Shelf bar

- Main toolbar

- Floating windows

to make it usable.

 

Rooms use a navigation concept that i like: TABS.

 

but, what about layouts / workspaces ?

 

the design of the interface is organized by the workflow required to access the tools needed for the job, to ensure users access the most information with the least amount of interactions. 

Keep the Workspace tabs as they are, but again, 3D Coat needs to have the objects in one cohesive environment. A good example of this is how Andrew integrated the Paint Room to paint Voxel Sculpted items with little to no break in workflow. If he could do that with UV's, and using Surface mode tools to sculpt on either a triangulated mesh or a low poly mesh...then we'd all be happy

[AbnRanger]

Then that's what I'm thinking: we don't need one room and one outliner for all. We need simpler/better bridges between said rooms. And shortcuts to simply switch between rooms.

Pretty much. But in the process, include some consolidation....of the UV tools (not separated between two workspaces) and Retopo/Tweak Room/Surface mode tools.

[BeatKitano]

Yep, tidying up. Like Javis did with the text part.

[AbnRanger]

I mean keep all UV tools in one workspace, and merge the Tweak Room with the Retopo Room, and when you click on the Sculpt tab, you should be able to use the Surface mode tools to sculpt on that same mesh

[AbnRanger]

I just think the Outliner panel is critical for making all of this work, as the app would use that to know what element you want to work on, when you switch to a given workspace. For example, if you are working on a low poly mesh, and see that it has some holes or tris that you want to correct...with it chosen, you can switch to the Topo/Tweak Room > make the fix > click on the Paint tab and you're right back to where you were, with no hassle and no export/import/Replace Mesh workaround.

[Carlosan]

wait... everyone is talking about to change the actual UI design, a reorganization

 

but a solid UI design need to be made NOT thinking in the present state BUT in the future development

 

3DC is growing day by day... in any new UI design, a workflow must be preserved taking account the future development

 

what about procedural textures ?

a full modeler surpassing retopo room ?

a new shader system with graphical nodes interface ?

a new render code ?

Export plugins for external renderers ?

 

from my POV, a full UI redesign must be for V5

[AbnRanger]

wait... everyone is talking about to change the actual UI design, a reorganization

 

but a solid UI design need to be made NOT thinking in the present state BUT in the future development

 

3DC is growing day by day... in any new UI design, a workflow must be preserved taking account the future development

 

what about procedural textures ?

a full modeler surpassing retopo room ?

a new shader system with graphical nodes interface ?

a new render code ?

Export plugins for external renderers ?

 

from my POV, a full UI redesign must be for V5

I don't think so. You're mostly talking about the app accommodating new tools into current workspaces. No problem, IMHO. Just some consolidation to close gaps in the pipeline and make the process of going back and forth between tasks/worskpaces more seamless.

[BeatKitano]

As I see it Carlosan, and how painful it looked to make the v4 overhaul, there won't be a big change as that in v5. I'm not Andrew, but that's the second iteration already. I mean we could probably stick to the room concept with consolidation, reorganization, making the bridges solid and very userfriendly. Everything fits in the current rooms regardless of the tech evolution. The rooms are technicaly all encompassing, the techs can evolve but the concepts of retopo/sculpt/paint/uv are there in all 3d content pipeline (maybe uving is going soon, at work it's already gone for instance) but that's it.