Carlosan Posted September 16, 2014 Report Share Posted September 16, 2014 A cross grade offer, if you own a 2D / 3D app, you can get LightWave at 50% of the regular price,$695 instead of $1495https://www.lightwave3d.com/crossgrade_promolasts until September 30, 2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Denis Posted September 16, 2014 Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 16, 2014 (edited) How hard is it to learn Lightwave, compared to Blender, Houdini, Maya, or 3DS Max? Edited September 16, 2014 by Denis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member L'Ancien Regime Posted September 16, 2014 Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 16, 2014 How hard is it to learn Lightwave, compared to Blender, Houdini, Maya, or 3DS Max? not as hard as Houdini, about the same as Maya and Max. Houdini is a much different program than any of these other ones... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted September 16, 2014 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted September 16, 2014 How hard is it to learn Lightwave, compared to Blender, Houdini, Maya, or 3DS Max? I don't know that it's a matter of learning, but rather the future....or lack thereof. LW, as it stands, is mired in a years-long effort to unify the two apps and it's proving to be Mission Impossible. Was a bad concept from the beginning and was way outdated a decade ago. The only hope it had was CORE, and they killed that effort about 3yrs ago. I was planning on getting back on board a few years down the road, after CORE was more full-featured and mature. LW is a powerful app in many respects, but it's also incredibly outdated in many respects, too. The real problem is....it's closest competitors. Blender and Modo, have their act together, while LW is still struggling to get there. Modo is really the next generation of Lightwave....just under a different name. The original developers of LW had to leave the company and start their own, to make that vision work. A decade later, they've done a marvelous job of executing that vision. Would be much smarter to put your chips on Modo rather than LW, IMHO. Having said that, Blender is downright amazing....not just for the hobbiest. but for a freelancer and small studio. I've really changed my thinking about the app, as they have moved to a subscription-type model (with the Project Gooseberry) to help sustain development Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor TimmyZDesign Posted September 16, 2014 Contributor Report Share Posted September 16, 2014 @AbnRanger: Is the Project Gooseberry subscription money really paying developers? I thought that money was just being used to pay artists that are working on the animated short movie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted September 17, 2014 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted September 17, 2014 @AbnRanger: Is the Project Gooseberry subscription money really paying developers? I thought that money was just being used to pay artists that are working on the animated short movie. It's both, actually. Much of their development occurs during these large-scale projects. https://cloud.blender.org/ http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Org:Institute/BlenderCloud 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Denis Posted September 17, 2014 Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 17, 2014 (edited) Thanks, this is good to know, but modo is way too expensive for a hobbiest. Edited September 17, 2014 by Denis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted September 17, 2014 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted September 17, 2014 Thanks, this is good to know, but modo is way too expensive for a hobbiest. They usually have sales at various times through the year, where it comes to about $800-900. Then, you can find people selling their license on the Modo classified section of their forums, for roughly $700+....once in a while Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member L'Ancien Regime Posted September 17, 2014 Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 17, 2014 (edited) At that price despite Abn Ranger's essentially correct assessment, LW is a decent deal. WAsn't LW the pioneer in SubD modeling? In fact we have THE pioneer of LW SubD modeling right here on this board with us..none other than Taron himself Light Wave's development may not be quite at Modo or Maya's cutting edge but for that price I think it could be a good choice http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?104192-Ten24-Photorealistic-Male-Body You can do some superb work in Lightwave...there's a whole lifetime of potential work there... Edited September 17, 2014 by L'Ancien Regime Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member IdotT Posted September 17, 2014 Member Report Share Posted September 17, 2014 (edited) The things that Modo can do that lightwave can't can be done better in 3Dcoat. I prefer Lightwave's renderer and the fact that it is more like two applications, i find it easy to use and navigate,the workspace feels very open ans easy on the eye. Other apps feel cluterred. Download the free demo and keep an open mind, What would you be crossgrading from? Edited September 17, 2014 by IdotT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member geo_n Posted September 19, 2014 Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 19, 2014 What's funny is you won't hear people complaining about using modo for modelling and maya for animation and houdini for fx. Ofoourse there's the sculpting which is done in zbrush. Thats four split appz. :p Personally though I wouldn't go with any software other than autodesk if I was looking for a studio job. No other software is a consideration except cinema4d. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member L'Ancien Regime Posted September 19, 2014 Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 19, 2014 (edited) What's funny is you won't hear people complaining about using modo for modelling and maya for animation and houdini for fx. Ofoourse there's the sculpting which is done in zbrush. Thats four split appz. :p Personally though I wouldn't go with any software other than autodesk if I was looking for a studio job. No other software is a consideration except cinema4d. Yeah but the question was about the hobbyist...so that LW deal is pretty damned good for the hobbyist. Edited September 19, 2014 by L'Ancien Regime Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted September 20, 2014 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted September 20, 2014 What's funny is you won't hear people complaining about using modo for modelling and maya for animation and houdini for fx. Ofoourse there's the sculpting which is done in zbrush. Thats four split appz. :p Personally though I wouldn't go with any software other than autodesk if I was looking for a studio job. No other software is a consideration except cinema4d. That's not a valid argument to make. Why? Because most individual users PREFER to stay in one app. That's why Max is so successful. Not so much the app itself, but all the plugins that let you STAY in the app for most of your work, if not all of it. Studios that do have a mixed pipeline, typically have different artists working in the different apps....not that same guy doing the whole thing. There is a reason why this has been the No.1 reason those outside of the LW community perceive it to be obsolete software. It was outdated more than a decade ago, and rather than charging full steam ahead, with CORE, they went back to the ancient relics, that is Modeler and Layout. One can ignore this reality all they want, but it won't change a thing. The longer they go with a split app structure, the more irrelevant it becomes in the industry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Nossgrr Posted September 20, 2014 Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 20, 2014 That's not a valid argument to make. Why? Because most individual users PREFER to stay in one app. That's why Max is so successful. For Max and it's plugins, you could almost say Krakatoa is a different app sitting on top of max, same with RealFlow (insert big plugin here)..etc Those are pipeline tools driving max. Either way, as long as those add-ons/companion modules play nice with the host app, I don't have a problem switching panels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted September 20, 2014 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted September 20, 2014 For Max and it's plugins, you could almost say Krakatoa is a different app sitting on top of max, same with RealFlow (insert big plugin here)..etc Those are pipeline tools driving max. Either way, as long as those add-ons/companion modules play nice with the host app, I don't have a problem switching panels. There are a TON of cheap/free plugins/scripts for 3ds Max. CAT Survival Toolkit, PolyFX, and an amazing MoGraph-like plugin...for $25. ATK (Animator's Toolkit) The point here is....people like to STAY inside one application to do all the tasks they need, rather than bounce around, from app to app....OUT OF NECESSITY. Not choice. Don't confuse inability with flexibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member geo_n Posted September 20, 2014 Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 20, 2014 That's not a valid argument to make. Why? Because most individual users PREFER to stay in one app. That's not a fact. Do you have statistical numbers???? Its a matter of taste. The actual pro artist with good work posted on the net work with multiple appz. They animate in maya/xsi but model somewhere else, modo, lw, silo, etc. Isn't that familiar? One modelling app and one animation and rendering app. Its been like that for ages. And as I said people even sculpt in zbrush its so common to do it this way. Thats 3 minimum appz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted September 20, 2014 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted September 20, 2014 That's not a fact. Do you have statistical numbers???? Its a matter of taste. The actual pro artist with good work posted on the net work with multiple appz. They animate in maya/xsi but model somewhere else, modo, lw, silo, etc. Isn't that familiar? One modelling app and one animation and rendering app. Its been like that for ages. And as I said people even sculpt in zbrush its so common to do it this way. Thats 3 minimum appz. Yeah, I got FACTS. LW's footprint in the industry is declining rapidly. I have friends trying to sell their seat of LW after waiting and waiting and waiting for years. I had a seat for years, myself. CORE was their last best chance, and canning it turned off a lot of folks. You can deny it all you want to, but even the DAVE school....which was big on LW for the longest time....has abandoned it in favor or Modo and Maya. You can ignore the reality of it's decline all you want, but plenty of long-time LW loyalists will readily admit it. It's harder and harder to find jobs where LW is used, and that is just a cold, hard fact...not rhetoric. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted September 20, 2014 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted September 20, 2014 Their own forums: http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?122232-Interesting-trend-in-LW-usage-statistics-on-NewTek-s-own-web-site http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?143467-Another-slam-on-Lightwave Notice how the Lightwave section of the Newtek forums got bumped down below the Tri-Caster and 3Play sections....telling. Very....telling, indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted September 20, 2014 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted September 20, 2014 And whether a studio CHOOSES to use a separate app to model or animate in, it's still a CHOICE. Not an arbitrary restriction placed on them by outdated architecture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted September 20, 2014 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted September 20, 2014 BIG, BIG difference. Lightwave forces users to have to switch back and forth between apps. Studios choosing to do different things in different apps is merely a preference. The dual app structure of Lightwave Modeler and Layout is not a matter of preference. It's mandatory. Once again, the fact that plugins are the main strength of 3ds Max kills your theory that EVERYBODY uses multiple apps to do multiple tasks. Maya, too. With Modo, you don't HAVE to do your texture painting or sculpting outside of it. It's pretty capable...as is Blender....of doing much of it right in the app. But if a user WANTS more options, they can do so with ZB, 3DC or MB. It comes down to "choice." You don't have it with LW. With Modo and other unified apps, you do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member geo_n Posted September 23, 2014 Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 23, 2014 Studios choosing to do different things in different apps is merely a preference. T Using multiple appz is not a preference. They use the best tool for the job. For some its a combination of a lot of appz. Animation in maya, fx render in lightwave. Model in lightwave, animate in 3dmax/maya. Model in modo, animate in xsi/maya/messiah, etc. This guy is JUST a modeller and look what he's using. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6foPK0OJUk&list=PLhzW_gP1MA15SyOHyat3m__od_TtTe0BS&index=1 ZBrush (preferably 4R6 P2) 3Ds Max 2014 Maya 2014 3D Coat Studios need versatility. A veteran artist will use even more than that. That's what artists do in a studio and get versatility and skills that comes in working in a studio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted September 23, 2014 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted September 23, 2014 Using multiple apps most certainly ARE a matter of preference. Since when does Autodesk force users to model in Max and animate in Maya? This is nothing more than flawed rationalizations to excuse Lightwave's old split app structure. Brad, Allen and Stu realized it was time to start anew a decades ago and it's amazing to see how many LW loyalists still try to defend it's most glaring flaw, still. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Member Nemoid Posted September 23, 2014 New Member Report Share Posted September 23, 2014 Yeah Lightwave 's separation into two apps is the problem of the app. Having two apps one for modelling, weight maps and other vertex maps and another for animation and rendering obliges users to have a more linear workflow for sure, and some problems when rigging/ testing rigs and other stuff. Though in good hands can produce awesome results. it is used still for many tv series for example. So it is worth a try and see if it fits someone's needs rather than discarding it totally.Modo came after and has the good advantage over Lw of being totally unified under a single environment, but still is not as robust as it should be for now and seems to have inherited some problems in performance related to animation from Lw. Probably the next release will be more robust as many users are requesting better performance and responsiveness for animation. Modelling is just good since it was born as a modelling app since the start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Denis Posted September 23, 2014 Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 23, 2014 Thanks Carlosan for the houdini link, but I tried to learn the free warermark version a couple of years back. It was way to hard to wrap my old brain around. I just put houdini in my post to make sure lightwave wasn't that hard. I then moved on to blender and got a little good with it, but for me I'm not really interested animation and all that particle stuff. Way too much clutter on the UI with things I didn't need. Then I came to 3DC and started learning. (thanks for all the tremendous tutorials) I really like the idea of being able to do everything in one app, but wish 3DC had a better renderer like cycles, where it's easy to set up lights , cameras,and materials, etc.So I think that my best course of action would be to go with Marmoset Toolbag 2. It's cheap and gets desirable results. The only other thing I would like to be able to do would be to create all my characters with symmetry in 3DC and then pose the into whatever action I wanted. I really do like all the paint tools in 3DC and would like to be able to do everything with one app. It would be nice to have a better renderer and some modest form of rigging. Oh well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlosan Posted September 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2014 Denis, take a look http://3d-coat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=4372&p=113354 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Denis Posted September 23, 2014 Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 23, 2014 OK that will be fantastic! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member L'Ancien Regime Posted September 23, 2014 Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 23, 2014 Thanks Carlosan for the houdini link, but I tried to learn the free warermark version a couple of years back. It was way to hard to wrap my old brain around. I just put houdini in my post to make sure lightwave wasn't that hard. I then moved on to blender and got a little good with it, but for me I'm not really interested animation and all that particle stuff. Way too much clutter on the UI with things I didn't need. Then I came to 3DC and started learning. (thanks for all the tremendous tutorials) I really like the idea of being able to do everything in one app, but wish 3DC had a better renderer like cycles, where it's easy to set up lights , cameras,and materials, etc.So I think that my best course of action would be to go with Marmoset Toolbag 2. It's cheap and gets desirable results. The only other thing I would like to be able to do would be to create all my characters with symmetry in 3DC and then pose the into whatever action I wanted. I really do like all the paint tools in 3DC and would like to be able to do everything with one app. It would be nice to have a better renderer and some modest form of rigging. Oh well. I'm glad you like 3d coat;I love it but I hope Andrew never wastes even one minute of his precious time on the render room ever again. He should negotiate with another specialized render company to have some kind of joint sales and closely linked plug in rather than fritter his scarce resources on a whole different area of research You can only do so much. 3d coat does modeling and texture painting and in my opinion it's still a surprisingly strong rival to Mudbox and Zbrush. I want Andrew to spend his time on what he does best; revolutionary new technology for modeling and sculpting in 3d. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Denis Posted September 23, 2014 Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 23, 2014 I'm glad you like 3d coat;I love it but I hope Andrew never wastes even one minute of his precious time on the render room ever again. He should negotiate with another specialized render company to have some kind of joint sales and closely linked plug in rather than fritter his scarce resources on a whole different area of research You can only do so much. 3d coat does modeling and texture painting and in my opinion it's still a surprisingly strong rival to Mudbox and Zbrush. I want Andrew to spend his time on what he does best; revolutionary new technology for modeling and sculpting in 3d. It doesn't really matter to me where the renderer comes from. I just find the present one very limited. Something like cycles in Blender would be more than adequate for what I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member popwfx Posted September 24, 2014 Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 24, 2014 (edited) Just a side note to counter AbnRanger (whom I generally agree with on many things), and many other's view on the separation of LW's model and animation apps - the 2 LightWave apps is not a big deal. I have used LW for many years (along with other many other apps in the pipeline) - and quite frankly, there is not just one app that is perfect, and this is not fanboy appreciation for LW - I have no loyalty to any software, just to the art it creates. But, I do agree that LW's architecture is getting rusty and it prevents them from updating as fast and to as cutting-edge stuff as what artists clamor for; but the separation of apps from Modeller and Layout is not the worst problem of LW at all. It is quite easy using the Hub (which does have its hiccups if you don't set up your install correctly), which makes working in Modeller and Layout easily feel like just one app on a fast machine. The Hub syncs models between the two running apps instantly and with no problem. So as Bugs Bunny says, "What's all the Hubbub, Bub?". Integration might cool if done correctly, but there are a lot more things LW needs before that. I mean I totally agree with a lot of the criticisms of LW, but by no means is the separation of apps its biggest issue. What makes LW such a great 3D solution is that it does the basics beautifully (though the definition of "the basics" is rapidly changing) and very easily. Its interface is getting dated, yes; but it is easy to use and uses real english words as opposed to the cluttered christmas tree collection of 16px icons that many other programs are. Is its character animation clunky? Physics integration among particles, cloth, fur etc clunky? Yes, but you can do a lot of stuff in it and solutions exist for many of its weaknesses. And is the future of the app and the LW brand uncertain as it becomes more and more marginalized in the industry and starting to be relegated to hobbyists? Heck yeah. Do I generally tell people I use LW? Not unless they specifically ask, I try to let the output speak for itself. But it works, is easy to use (way better than Blender if you ask me), renders beautifully, is solid as hell , and a good part of a balanced breakfast a series of apps you could use in your toolbox/workflow/pipeline. Why not use LW, 3DC, Zbrush, Modo and more if you can quickly and easily move between them? Is it ideal to have to move between apps? No. But there ain't a single, full, comprehensive app that can do everything nicely out there - including Max and Maya. They all have their strengths and weaknesses (and I do use Blender too for some tasks), but LW still packs a punch despite its murky future. Nothing touches 3DC's UV and Retopo that I've used, so why not incorporate it? Can I do everything in 3DC? Do I want 3DC to be a renderer? Do I need to Rig in 3DC? Not at all. I love what 3DC does and I see it as an awesome part of the media apps I use. The point is not to defend LW, as much as to clarify that it is still a very useful tool in your toolbox that is easy to use; and if you have even a modicum of 3D chops, you should easily be able to recoup the crossgrade price in a single project. So why not? TL;DR If you can afford it, it is worth it, despite its issues. Edited September 24, 2014 by popwfx 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlosan Posted November 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2014 I bought 11.6 when they were offering the crossgrade deal last month, and was surprised to see the 2015 feature video already, i thought it was a coming soon video. So I logged into my account to see what my price options were for upgrading. On the account page my Win/Mac installers, content and license were there available to download! LightWave 2015 Features Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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