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Andrew Shpagin

V4.5 BETA (experimental)

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After working a few days learning about PBR  plus starting to understand it's functions in 3DC, I would say for sure we need now more than ever a better AO calculation method in 3DC. I hope this possible before the official release of 3DCoat 4.5...

 

I remember asking for a real AO solution some years ago but apparently it wasn't a priority or important enough. I don't know of any software that even uses this hack of AO implementation we currently have in 3DCoat ;) 

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Zbrush can't generate Displacement Maps for thin objects like thin feathers that look properly in renders. All Multi Map exporter config options tried and the rendering of its EXR maps come out distorted.  Its official.  You might try to get the crown in 3D-Coat for these types of objects.   Only with X-Normal could I bake an EXR that renders properly in 3DSMax, using a lowpoly cage mesh created in 3DSMax. The lowpoly was specially re-done to hold its shape better, when smoothed / subdivided, just for displacement..

Edited by mercy

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the possibility to bake a directional light map is also very important to create this-blizzard-style-rendering...

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Thanks guys! @JoseConseco - No I used several tools and options but it was really rather a quick'n'dirty approach doing it all in one Layer. I was merely having fun.

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Thanks, Artman.

In general, I think re-introduction of glossiness blending modes would be a bad idea, because things finally work as they should now (glossiness of a layer overwrites, with alpha-blending, the glossiness of lower layers). However, some kind of legacy solution would be welcome. I think most of us have some older projects "put away for finishing later" stacked up on our disks. If they contain paint layers with some kind of glossiness blending modes, then I suspect there might be a problem loading them correctly. I didn't try loading such projects yet, so I don't know what happens if I do so, but I assume that nothing good. I already ran into a destructive bug when loading an old project in which I didn't even use glossiness blending modes. The bug manifests itself with glossiness permanently disappearing from all layers, after visibility of one of them is changed.

 

A quick and simple legacy solution, off the top of my head, might be to allow people to keep two versions of 3D-Coat installed in different folders, and using different directories to store their settings. This would eliminate the need of juggling with 3D-Coat versions and settings just to work on older scenes in 4.1.x.

 

Yes please allow configuration folder to be customizable so we can have a stable release install and a beta release install.

I still have 3dcoat v3 installed for some things that v4 just interprets wrong in some file imports.

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Two Questions

 

1. Are there any plans about Fill Layers, similar to that we have in Substance Painter?

I like the workflow realy much. It is non destructive, you see in realtime what you did and you could modify it on the fly.

 

 

2. How did the Material converting works?

My folders are empty, and if use Convert Materials, nothing happens. I get only one new Default Material.

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I just checked, and some of my old bug reports are still open, so I'm just going to drop my notes/bug reports here. I apologise, but I won't put more work into it, as that just leads to me being dissapointed when it ends up being ignored.

-The Fill Tool's 'colour tolerance' only works for the diffuse/albedo channel. While the name does seem to imply this, it should at least work on the other channels when you're displaying those directly (like when pressing 3 for Gloss only)

-The 'Glossiness Brightness' slider in the Layer Blending panel doesn't have an effect.

-The 'Contrast' slider in the Layer Blending panel should probably go to -1? Right now we have to type it in.

Clone Stamp problems:

-Gloss&Spec channels paint transparancy (like when your source-point is on the edge of the mesh) as black. The colour channel correctly leaves this transparent.

-The colour channel always ends up being brighter than the source!

-Transform/Copy tool's preview is extremely bright. The tool does appear to work correctly, it's just the preview of what you're going to stamp.

-Spline Image Tool only has inputs for Depth, Color and Glossiness textures. Depending on workflow, it's missing Specular or Metalness. And currently it paints the 'glossiness' texture into the metalness map, and paints black in the gloss channel.

-I had some issues with freezing, but haven't tried to reproduce them in Beta 5 yet. If I do, I'll update this or make a new post.:Undo sometimes freezes random parts, but only when I've used freeze in the file previously and unfrozen everything again. (I tried,and can't reproduce it. If it happens again I'll let you know)

-Colourpicking (v) doesn't pick up metalness.

EDIT: changing sliders in the Layer Blending panel doesn't work with undo/redo.

 

Edit: As shown here, using the lasso (or other shapes) Stroke Mode results in only a small sliver around the edge of the shape being painted. The PBR Material Preview shows what it should have looked like.

Schermafdruk%202015-01-14%2013.25.11.png

Edited by Mighty Pea

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Seems I can't edit anymore, so:

 

Strips can only contain Color, Depth, Alpha and Specular, and if you import a psd with a Glossiness or Metallic layer it won't import at all.

 

edit: and every now and again, the strips produce this result:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17715/Schermafdruk%202015-01-14%2015.17.05.png

Edited by Mighty Pea

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Mighty Pea, yep PBR has quite a lot small bugs here and there.  I hope they will be fixed for finall release. I reported most of them to mantis.

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One more that I'd like confirmed: View>Flat Shade and Specular are reversed.

 

EDIT: The eraser's pressure sensitivity doesn't work with certain brush shapes in 'Depth & Opacity Pressure' Stroke Mode. For instance: 'randomscratches(256x256), probably because the eraser doesn't feature an 'opacity' slider. It *does* work with 'Radius, Depth & Opacity' stroke mode.

 

EDIT: silly waste of time, but I was using the default bevelled cube for testing, and the unwrap bothered me, so here's my alternative:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17715/3dc_cube.obj

It's straighter, so there's less distortion on straight lines

Edited by Mighty Pea
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Does displacement work in BETA5? I don't get any after baking for PPP with displacement. Show Displaced Mesh doesn't show anything, and the map exports as flat colour.

Edited by ajz3d

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Does displacement work in BETA5? I don't get any after baking for PPP with displacement. Show Displaced Mesh doesn't show anything, and the map exports as flat colour.

It appears to be working on my end...

Win32 bit Beta5 running under Wine in Linux, GL version.

 

I was not getting anything till I turned off Names Correspondence for baking, I am not saying this is your problem, I was just going what the heck? :blink:

Then I saw my error... LOL...

Edited by digman

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I turned off Names Correspondence for Baking, but it still doesn't work. What settings did you use to bake the displacement?

Edited by ajz3d

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Now just because it works on my end does not mean there is not a bug in your 3DC. You are an experienced user so the below is just to help with figuring out the problem.

 

From the retopo room, I bake at a high polygon subdivision for PPP with displacement, a must for the baking to be correct... Andrew has confirmed this.

I added more normal map work to see if that was added to the already baked normal map and could has well be exported as a displacement map with the baked one.

Export settings from the File menu / export / export panel for displacement shown in picture...

Loaded the EXR files in Photoshop and the displacement is correct...

post-518-0-65568600-1421291113_thumb.png

Edited by digman
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Andrew, while you're still on the Paint Room pass, one thing that I'd really like to see in v5, because there is no time for it to happen in v4.5 since it's due out any time soon, are more painting medium styles. Gouache, oil and ink would be really a great start. More added as time goes too, where applicable. Or just some parameters that simulate these styles, like paint clumping, impasto, wetness/dryness, etc.. Things like that. It would be really cool to do some 3D painting with gouache style, do some Frazetta style painting on a sculpture.

 

Here are some other things that would be cool for painting features, too.

 

Brush loading: Keeping your brush dirty from the the colors you've painted over

Palette Knife: Scraping existing paint along the surface

 

Wait, can it be done for 4.5? ;)

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Andrew, while you're still on the Paint Room pass, one thing that I'd really like to see in v5, because there is no time for it to happen in v4.5 since it's due out any time soon, are more painting medium styles. Gouache, oil and ink would be really a great start. More added as time goes too, where applicable. Or just some parameters that simulate these styles, like paint clumping, impasto, wetness/dryness, etc.. Things like that. It would be really cool to do some 3D painting with gouache style, do some Frazetta style painting on a sculpture.

 

Here are some other things that would be cool for painting features, too.

 

Brush loading: Keeping your brush dirty from the the colors you've painted over

Palette Knife: Scraping existing paint along the surface

 

Wait, can it be done for 4.5? ;)

What you are asking for is a separate job for a coder team accomplished over years. If Andrew wishes to see, how real brushes work mixing color like in real life, check out Procreate Painter 7. This was just when Corel bought them and the awesome coders probably left Corel right after that, because the next versions of Corel Painter were nothing like Painter 7. Nothing like that was ever accomplished after that, its lost technology years ahead of its time and the engineers, who accomplished that are gone.  I wonder, where those brilliant engineers went to work, after they apparently left Corel?

Open Procreate Painter 7:

1. Select Oil Brushes, Camel Hair Brush,

2.

Go to Brush Options: long vertical window with lots of settings

Find and adjust its EXPRESSION, check it by painting how the brush behaves and set this:

Velocity Scale: 36

Velocity Power: 0.34

Pressure Scale: 1.00

Pressure Power: 2.00

3.

Go to layer options try CTRL or ALT +1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 for all important paint tools

Set: Pick up background color from layers

Select a color: Paint a few strokes like blue

Select a new color: Paint a few strokes like orange yellow

and watch how the colors mix.

That's what you won't be able to replicate, because it took them a team building Painter 1.0 --> Painter 7.0, years to accomplish. Its a life achievement!

Maybe, only maybe - I don't know - they are this team, continued working for iPad:

http://procreate.si/

Edited by mercy

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Now just because it works on my end does not mean there is not a bug in your 3DC. You are an experienced user so the below is just to help with figuring out the problem.

From the retopo room, I bake at a high polygon subdivision for PPP with displacement, a must for the baking to be correct... Andrew has confirmed this.

I added more normal map work to see if that was added to the already baked normal map and could has well be exported as a displacement map with the baked one.

Export settings from the File menu / export / export panel for displacement shown in picture...

Loaded the EXR files in Photoshop and the displacement is correct...

Thanks, Digman. This is exactly how I do it, and yet 3D-Coat doesn't generate displacement map. I'll try with another model. Meanwhile I was able to bake the map in xNormal.

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@Mercy, thanks for letting us know about this software. It looks awesome. I wish it was available for Windows users.

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What you are asking for is a separate job for a coder team accomplished over years. If Andrew wishes to see, how real brushes work mixing color like in real life, check out Procreate Painter 7. This was just when Corel bought them and the awesome coders probably left Corel right after that, because the next versions of Corel Painter were nothing like Painter 7. Nothing like that was ever accomplished after that, its lost technology years ahead of its time and the engineers, who accomplished that are gone.  I wonder, where those brilliant engineers went to work, after they apparently left Corel?

Open Procreate Painter 7:

1. Select Oil Brushes, Camel Hair Brush,

2.

Go to Brush Options: long vertical window with lots of settings

Find and adjust its EXPRESSION, check it by painting how the brush behaves and set this:

Velocity Scale: 36

Velocity Power: 0.34

Pressure Scale: 1.00

Pressure Power: 2.00

3.

Go to layer options try CTRL or ALT +1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 for all important paint tools

Set: Pick up background color from layers

Select a color: Paint a few strokes like blue

Select a new color: Paint a few strokes like orange yellow

and watch how the colors mix.

That's what you won't be able to replicate, because it took them a team building Painter 1.0 --> Painter 7.0, years to accomplish. Its a life achievement!

Maybe, only maybe - I don't know - they are this team, continued working for iPad:

http://procreate.si/

 

 

It is a big achievement, yes, but let's not discount Andrew's abilities here. At SIGGRAPH 2010,  Andrew literally made me drop my jaw with his work. Not only in the hotel room, where he literally programmed something amazing in a matter of a few hours, but also on the show floor. If there was a person that could do it, it is Andrew. :)

 

I used Painter 7, it was awesome! I occasionally use Painter 11, but it's not quite the same. Still cool though.

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@Javis... Yes, Yes, Yes... We need all types of brushes, a good example is the brush engine of TwistedBrush, one of the most powerful for all types of brushes. Now I know that right now it is not possible but a good start would be the brushes you described. 

 

Funny I thought several times I would buy Andrew a copy of TwistedBrush, so he could check out the brush engine. You can create your own brushes, I am not just talking about alphas but brush media types, oil, acrylics, watercolor, pastels, pens etc. I figured it might spark his creative programming brain to give us something like it in 3DC. Maybe I still will buy him a copy...  :) 

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I used Painter 7, it was awesome! I occasionally use Painter 11, but it's not quite the same. Still cool though.

 

What's interesting is that if done right such effects can be applied to sculpting as well, things like erosion and gravity effecting its strokes..ect

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