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Pose Tool feature request

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Hi Andrew, i would like to share about a very important point that is source of pain for me when it comes to refine the initial topology of any model, after you achieve some sculpting work and notice later that your had some anatomical issues.

In Zbrush its easy because in surface mode you can go back at the first subdivision iteration, then brush tools are good enough to do some edit and not screw up your mesh when you go back at the higher subdivision level.
You can still use transpose tool and the masking to refine the topology.

Well it not really easy to do the same operation within 3dcoat.
 

So I really hope for a big improvement for the pose tool in voxel room, because i challenge any one of you to create an In-action posture with the manequin model( one voxlayer), without to screw up all the topology.

Edited by fuzzzzzz

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New alignment is buggy in paint room. (Paint Objects and Surface Materials)

 

attachicon.gifNotReadable.jpg

 

I am not able to read something.

Is there a way to disable the new alignment?

Fixed all alignment problems, will do new build today.

Hi Andrew, i would like to share about a very important point that is source of pain for me when it comes to refine the initial topology of any model, after you achieve some sculpting work and notice later that your had some anatomical issues.

In Zbrush its easy because in surface mode you can go back at the first subdivision iteration, then brush tools are good enough to do some edit and not screw up your mesh when you go back at the higher subdivision level.

You can still use transpose tool and the masking to refine the topology.

Well it not really easy to do the same operation within 3dcoat.

 

So I really hope for a big improvement for the pose tool in voxel room, because i challenge any one of you to create an In-action posture with the manequin model( one voxlayer), without to screw up all the topology.

What about Proxy? It is exactly for this purpose.

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the reduction is sometime not enough , i try a reduction on the one layer manequin and the reduction is 24k it still too big and decimate do not give any better result 90k.

Why the surface mode is not similar to a classic subdivistion iteration system like it is in Zbrush ?

pose falloff is uncontrollable, it often times give an undesired bend deformation.

bde172a1db.png

 

fd01f01eba.png

 

also it would be cool to edit the selelection then it apply the last transform operation so we don't have to undo everytime we are not happy with the falloff.

 

07eed3a6f5.png

 

i need to use smooth brushes and then buildup to reshape all the shoulder, "adjust transistion area" doesn't help any way, it still doesn't look natural.

 

Another point about the paint tool used to edit the selection, if you apply a smooth and then paint anywhere , then you rotate the gizmoz, the varaition of small value  that are not totally uniform after you paint it, will give a lot of crappy azardous deformation, sort of holes over the surface.

This tool is for me a real nightmare to use, so i must to be sure i don't make any anatomic error before to sculpt on any model with 3dcoat :/

some 3dcot guru form here could meaybe show me what they are capable to create a active posture with the one lyered manequin model, just ot make me lie :)

 

EDIT :

 

look at what i get with Zbrush within few minutes of tweaks : 

- the model has less polygons

- the topology is based on quad

- and the auto masking  give almonst directly the good data for a perfect deformations, maybe i hit one or two time the blur mask button but that .

i am not capable to redo that in 3Dcoat without to reshape everypart of the mesh , so its a real nightmare to have to rework on the topology on any model i work with in 3dcoat.

 

 

ef5849657b.png

Edited by fuzzzzzz

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fuzzzzzz, I've never found 3DCs pose tool to be as quick with the same result as ZB. So I don't think you're alone. Though, if anyone does have some input, I'm more than welcome to hear it. :)

 

 

Andrew, on a side note, is it possible to add some way to lock the Quick Access panel from being edited? I'm constantly finding while sculpting that I'll accidentally drag a tool/preset icon off my hotbar.

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Ok, I may pay serious attention on Pose tool to be used easily for anatimical posing, but seems can't start big changes there.... I am trying to do only small tweaks.

But if you have idea how to make small and easy change that will do life 3x easier - I will gladly do that right now.

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I don't mind if the Pose tool changes are not until after 4.5, but I can't speak for everyone of course. :)

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But... Since you're asking. What about easier ways to make falloffs for all tools (including painting)? Something like Modo's falloffs maybe. It could work with the freeze tool, pose tool, all painting tools, etc..

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A way to position the gizmo more quickly would be good. Things like setting it to the center of the selection, quick click placement, etc.. Similar to some of the other functions for the gizmo tool from the Primitive/Import tools would be excellent too.

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Ok, I may pay serious attention on Pose tool to be used easily for anatimical posing, but seems can't start big changes there.... I am trying to do only small tweaks.

But if you have idea how to make small and easy change that will do life 3x easier - I will gladly do that right now.

for sure i got a little idea how it could be done, and with some existing component :)

with not use the curve tools, we could store it somewhere and defomr the mesh like with some real joints.

like the zbrush zsphere rigging

 

http://youtu.be/s6THhnv0m6g?t=2m40s

http://puppet-master.net/tutorials/zbrush/zspheres-rigging/

 

this way the curves used as joint/bone , could be stored into a particular voxel layer onto the one we could go back and edit or restore the initial "Bind pose",

We could recovers that bond pose, but why not store only one pose ?, maybe we could have several setup and than  export them as blendshapes / morphs .

 

For that we need the curve tool to get the capacity to snap at the middle of an existing volume.

each curves's sphere  would have an influcnee on a main layer, and that could be great if we could extend the sphere influce to more than just one vox layer,  for instance you have the rig for the human character, and into a different layer you have a gun, you rotate the sphere at the shoulder and then the gun would follow the hand of the character , that could work with clothing too.

I don't know if we should only restrict the tool to work with rotation only, or maybe we could have an option to prevent translation ans scaling , and only rotate, so we always keep the correct joint lenght.

 

What do you think about this suggestion ? i think that most of the code is still there for such of feature.

Edited by fuzzzzzz
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Ok, I may pay serious attention on Pose tool to be used easily for anatimical posing, but seems can't start big changes there.... I am trying to do only small tweaks.

But if you have idea how to make small and easy change that will do life 3x easier - I will gladly do that right now.

quick/cheap ideas :)

 

idea1)

 It was requested a long time ago  curves for selection fall off (by me and others at the time).....

You implemented it but  it seems this curve allow to do some bevelling and other weird stuff....(nobody needs to do bevelling with pose tool)

What I and others  wanted was way to make custom smooth transition in selections....even if proxy has still high polycount.

Because using Smooth selection is not strong enough...when proxy  mesh has medium/high density selection is not even smoothed (which does not allow for good bending for anatomical posing)

So what we need is curve control of the selection fall off....you already implemented it but it needs to gives smooth gradient control

not harsh steps to do bevelling.

Since feature is already implemented and just require some change I guess it count as a "small tweak" instead of a big pose tool overhaul.

 

idea 2) (another old idea from V3 days )

Posibility to save/load selections list that could be switched using up and down arrows(or other keys)

(ex of a saved list : Finger1,Finger2,Palm ect...)

It would be the same as current save/load selection but instead of saving to file one selection we could save a bunch of those inside one single file and user could switch/navigate among those selections and do some fast efficient posing.

Without need to constantly redo selections.

Seems like an easy addition too since its already 3/4 implemented.

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I don't mind if the Pose tool changes are not until after 4.5, but I can't speak for everyone of course. :)

sure, personally i would like to have that before the development for the v5 series begins, i don't know how and when i could afford for the next version, and this feature is very important, bceaus eit could break the workflow within 3Dcoat, that already allow us to achieve a lot of work with interchenge with other software, so if that could be fixed, i would really appreciate :)

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Regarding the pose tool,

 

I always thought it would be cool if you could have a posed instance of your model.  That way, you could sculpt on the the original non posed version and see how that change would propogate to the posed version.  Makes for a non destructive workflow.

 

BTW, pbr developments are really nice!  It would be nice to have some sand/rock preset materials in addition to glass which was mention above.  Also, of course, I am eagerly anticipating sss materials for characters, etc.

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the reduction is sometime not enough , i try a reduction on the one layer manequin and the reduction is 24k it still too big and decimate do not give any better result 90k.

Why the surface mode is not similar to a classic subdivistion iteration system like it is in Zbrush ?

pose falloff is uncontrollable, it often times give an undesired bend deformation.

bde172a1db.png

 

 

 

also it would be cool to edit the selelection then it apply the last transform operation so we don't have to undo everytime we are not happy with the falloff.

 

 

 

i need to use smooth brushes and then buildup to reshape all the shoulder, "adjust transistion area" doesn't help any way, it still doesn't look natural.

 

Another point about the paint tool used to edit the selection, if you apply a smooth and then paint anywhere , then you rotate the gizmoz, the varaition of small value  that are not totally uniform after you paint it, will give a lot of crappy azardous deformation, sort of holes over the surface.

This tool is for me a real nightmare to use, so i must to be sure i don't make any anatomic error before to sculpt on any model with 3dcoat :/

some 3dcot guru form here could meaybe show me what they are capable to create a active posture with the one lyered manequin model, just ot make me lie :)

 

EDIT :

 

look at what i get with Zbrush within few minutes of tweaks : 

- the model has less polygons

- the topology is based on quad

- and the auto masking  give almonst directly the good data for a perfect deformations, maybe i hit one or two time the blur mask button but that .

i am not capable to redo that in 3Dcoat without to reshape everypart of the mesh , so its a real nightmare to have to rework on the topology on any model i work with in 3dcoat.

 

 

 

Have you watched any of the videos covering the Pose Tool?

 

 

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quick/cheap ideas :)

 

idea1)

 It was requested a long time ago  curves for selection fall off (by me and others at the time).....

You implemented it but  it seems this curve allow to do some bevelling and other weird stuff....(nobody needs to do bevelling with pose tool)

What I and others  wanted was way to make custom smooth transition in selections....even if proxy has still high polycount.

Because using Smooth selection is not strong enough...when proxy  mesh has medium/high density selection is not even smoothed (which does not allow for good bending for anatomical posing)

So what we need is curve control of the selection fall off....you already implemented it but it needs to gives smooth gradient control

not harsh steps to do bevelling.

Since feature is already implemented and just require some change I guess it count as a "small tweak" instead of a big pose tool overhaul.

 

idea 2) (another old idea from V3 days )

Posibility to save/load selections list that could be switched using up and down arrows(or other keys)

(ex of a saved list : Finger1,Finger2,Palm ect...)

It would be the same as current save/load selection but instead of saving to file one selection we could save a bunch of those inside one single file and user could switch/navigate among those selections and do some fast efficient posing.

Without need to constantly redo selections.

Seems like an easy addition too since its already 3/4 implemented.

Those Curve Profiles were just meant to allow the user more control of the fallow curve at the end of a selection...rather than 3D Coat just assign an arbitrary S curve. Some members asked how to create bevels in the Sculpt room, so a few techniques were demonstrated. That doesn't mean the Pose Tool Falloff curves were created for beveling. And which tool or technique one uses to create bevels in 3D Coat is entirely up the individual, so how can you speak for others and claim "nobody uses the Pose tool for creating bevels?" Maybe you don't. But others may. After all, the Pose Tool is 3D Coat's primary modeling/deformation tool, not simply for Posing.

 

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Those Curve Profiles were just meant to allow the user more control of the fallow curve at the end of a selection...rather than 3D Coat just assign an arbitrary S curve. Some members asked how to create bevels in the Sculpt room, so a few techniques were demonstrated. That doesn't mean the Pose Tool Falloff curves were created for beveling. And which tool or technique one uses to create bevels in 3D Coat is entirely up the individual, so how can you speak for others and claim "nobody uses the Pose tool for creating bevels?" Maybe you don't. But others may. After all, the Pose Tool is 3D Coat's primary modeling/deformation tool, not simply for Posing.

 

sorry,I thought it would allow us to control the smoothness/harshness of the selection transition, which it hardly does.

 

And as far as using pose tool to do some bevel work i haven't seen any hardsurface work where a user would use it to do bevellings, especially since its so easy to directly do bevels using brushes and E-panel splines....of course,anyone can do whatever they want with it.Its just that at that time when we pushed for having falloff curves I really thought we would be able control bending smoothness with it so I was little disappointed with the weird bevel examples when it was released...

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A possible small tweak if possible and not take you away from polishing PBR.

 

Pose tool cage tweaked so the user can adjust the falloff of the free form cage, how far the linear falloff goes up the cage, You could get a lot better posing of your character. Now when using the tool,turning the hand, almost the whole arm is effected deforming badly, more in the forearm.The other major problem is that even within the area inclosed by 4 selected controls points the hand mesh is still deformed badly. You do not want any deformation there at all... only a gentle falloff extending into the wrist area... No adjusting of inner radius or FFD strictness really does much of anything.

Any cage selected has problems so using one over the other does not fix things...

 

This was posted as a Mantis report some time ago but no real fix came about... I do not mind waiting till 4.5 is released as the pose tool deserves a good working over and not a quick fix that just could lead to more problems and 4.5 is a free upgrade to any current users of 3DC.

Picture of the problem uploaded.

I only showed one view, if you spin the model around you see clearly see how bad the deforms are..

post-518-0-18842800-1422642675_thumb.png

Edited by digman

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sure, personally i would like to have that before the development for the v5 series begins, i don't know how and when i could afford for the next version, and this feature is very important, bceaus eit could break the workflow within 3Dcoat, that already allow us to achieve a lot of work with interchenge with other software, so if that could be fixed, i would really appreciate :)

 

I completely agree with you! A fix absolutely, but a new feature not slated is what I meant. Anyway, I'm sculpting a lot lately, so some pose tool fixes benefit me personally as well. ;)

easy and small tweaks ?

i got ones ! ^_^

 

Floating small square over spline: change command location to Tool Options

 

Any tool function or parameter that relates to a tool should be inside of the "Tool Options" panel

 

This are the most easy, funny, awesome, smallest tweaks that could make everyone happy ! :D -at least for one week-

 

 

Yes, this please.

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@abnRanger, thx for posting the link , and yes i had watched them long time ago, but was nice as reminder to watch them again.

As digman has posted the screen the lattice doesn't not help, and it not confortable enought to correctly define the space between the elbow and the wrist.

@digman yes it would be great to have a complete refined of the pose tool, or rename it and get a full new tool, that would not be a good idea to close the  4.x series with a unfinish feature.

@javis, why not, if the tweak fix the current problems.

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@abnRanger, thx for posting the link , and yes i had watched them long time ago, but was nice as reminder to watch them again.

As digman has posted the screen the lattice doesn't not help, and it not confortable enought to correctly define the space between the elbow and the wrist.

@digman yes it would be great to have a complete refined of the pose tool, or rename it and get a full new tool, that would not be a good idea to close the  4.x series with a unfinish feature.

@javis, why not, if the tweak fix the current problems.

I asked Andrew if we could be given the option to move the control points/segments of the lattice PRIOR to making any deformation, so one could be shape the lattice to fit the object and position the segments precisely where the deformations are going to occur. That has never happened, but it certainly would improve the POSE tool a lot. Also, with the Primitives tool, if you leave the tool active, but choose a model from the Model's pallet, 3D Coat will let you assign an arbitrary number of control points. We NEED this in the Pose Tool as well. With some objects, the few presets aren't enough.

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In 3ds Max, you can set the number of control points arbitrarily and you can pre-shape the cage to fit the object better. Wish we had that in the Pose tool now....and a stronger SMOOTH selection

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After 4.5, what I think would be a fantastic addition would be to use a variant of the Spline Stroke Draw mode (just for the Pose tool). It would have two major modes.

 

1) Inner-section mode: where you click a point on your model and it places the control point/node inside the object (you can see a glimpse of how it would work at roughly the 2:00 min mark in this Modo rigging overview)

 

 

The Control point /node scale would dictate it's weighting (falloff scale)

 

2) Spline-Deform mode:

 

 

in both modes the user should be able to click on a node and use a slider to increase or decrease the falloff scale/range (curve profiles could be used to define sharpness or softness in certain areas)

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sooooooorry.... but

 

POSE TOOL actually is TRANSFORM TOOL in steroids -I said that the appropriate name might be Transpose Tool-

 

3DC need a NEW POSE TOOL, a new one from scratch

 

I prefer a well-made feature at 100%, but please... dont  push by 2 features at 50%

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sooooooorry.... but

 

POSE TOOL actually is TRANSFORM TOOL in steroids -I said that the appropriate name might be Transpose Tool-

 

3DC need a NEW POSE TOOL, a new one from scratch

 

I prefer a well-made feature at 100%, but please... dont  push by 2 features at 50%

I think Pose/Deform would be the best name, and would prefer to keep all the tools inside it, rather than split it up between two. Just needs to be well thought out, with enhancements to the FFD lattice, smoothing of the falloff and then some sort of spline-based rig and spline deformer. Should make it a really powerful modeling toolset all in one

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thats the point

 

some sort of spline-based rig and spline deformer need a solid Pose Proxy Method that must work in any circumstances.

 

Users dont care if the model is voxel, surface, clay, polypainted, 1M or 20M size... Pose must work always in easy, fast, and understandable way.

 

And should be a stable solution which will work in an effective and persistent workflow.

 

 

what if the next idea could be: "why not to add a skeleton system to retopo room to export fbx ?" and that idea... made obsolete all sculpt pose tool development -let say- in a year ?

 

What about layers mask feature request ? We dont need that feature anymore in paint room ?

 

20days for next release and the development is going very very well... i hope to follow this way.

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Yes the Pose Tool does MUCH more than just posing. It should be called the Deform Tool. You can use it to do modeling, not just posing. It is a great tool and very powerful.

It probably would be a good idea to make a separate tool in 3D-Coat just for posing (for the people who come from Zbrush and are expecting a Transpose tool like in Zbrush).

Also it seems that many people here want to have smoother falloffs when using the current Pose Tool (so that they get better deformation when posing). Doesn't that functionality already exist in the "border width" setting in the Stroke Mode (E) panel? Maybe that setting should also be in the Pose Tool's Tool Options panel, so that people know they can use it with the Pose Tool.

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