Problem with 3DC's autorepo

[kenmo]

I created a model in Groboto3D and then brought into 3DCoat to add details. The model is way too dense when I import it into Vue Complete 2015 and really slows down Vue to the point, Vue is not usable.

And the current mesh is simply very diificult to UV map in 3DCoat with no flow to the faces and bad edge loops.

I've been playing with the autorepo function in 3DC. I am not adding any painted areas for density or any strokes. 3DC's online manual and youtube channel recommends to try without these markings. However I can never get past this screen. It stays there for 2 hours plus...

I was using version 4.5 64 bit and ran into this wall with both the GL & DX versions. I upgraded to 4.7  64 bit this morning and still the same results with GL or DX.

In frustration I downloaded a trial of ZBrush 4.7 and using their zremesher option I was able to create a mesh within a few minutes. The mesh still has issues though and maybe a bit of a task to do a good UV mapping in 3DC.

I also heard of a free retopology app named InstantMeshes which I downloaded and installed. This also creates a mesh in minutes. Still has issues but at least appears to be slightly better then ZBrush's.

So what am I doing wrong in 3DC? Any tips or pointers?

Cheers

Ken Morris

PS: To begin with I never was a fan of repotologizing a mesh. I understand the need but I really dislike the idea of having to do a manually retopologize as IMHO it is plain silly to model a object twice.

[kenmo]

My computer is Windows 10 Home with 32 gbs of DDR3 memory, I7-4770S and GeForce GTX 750 TI 4GB.

Adobe Lightroom CC 2015, Adobe Photoshop CC 2017, Vue Complete 2015, Corel Painter 2017, ArtRage 4.5, Silo3D, Hexagon 3D, Sculptris all run fine (except for Hexagon3D and 3DC's autorepo feature) on my system. 

I'll gladly post the OBJ file if anyone thinks it would help my issue.

Edited November 11, 2016 by kenmo

[Count Joshula]

If the mesh you created in Groboto3d is of acceptable polycount, then just use that mesh as the retopo mesh to bake the details.

Edited November 11, 2016 by Count Joshula

[kenmo]

But I added details in 3DC from 3DC's spaceship tinker kit. So not sure what you are suggesting... For example I added on the rear engine, the tail lights and hood scoop in 3DC.

Edited November 11, 2016 by kenmo

[AbnRanger]

 

[AbnRanger]

That model, overall, may be rather simple, but it has a fair number of complex shapes for an Auto-Retopo toolset, regardless of whether it is done in 3DC or ZB. You have to try and dumb it down for the algorithm. If you model has really sharp edges, you might get a better result by enabling the Hard Edge option in the Auto-Retopo dialog.

Me, personally....I'd just use the Strokes tool to do most of the work and use the other retopo tools to clean things up and add more geometry, where you need it. You'd be surprised how fast the Strokes tool is, compared to Auto-Retopo. It is somewhat of an Auto-Mesh generating tool, in it's own right...but you have complete control over the topology. If Auto-Retopo isn't getting it done after a few attempts, it's best to move on to the Strokes tool. By the time you have made several attempts and different apps, you would have already completed the task, using the Strokes tool...and it would look a lot better than an Auto-Retopo mesh.

Don't forget, you can now use the shape draw modes in the E-Panel to create very accurate shapes with the Strokes tool.

 

[kenmo]

I watched the first three videos a couple of times. I've not seen the last video (at least as far as I can recall). I actually re-watched the first three twice in the last week...

I did try to do a manual retopo but I had no idea how to do the rear engine, or tail lights.

Cheers

Edited November 11, 2016 by kenmo

[AbnRanger]

2 hours ago, kenmo said:

I watched the first three videos a couple of times. I've not seen the last video (at least as far as I can recall). I actually re-watched the first three twice in the last week...

I did try to do a manual retopo but I had no idea how to do the rear engine, or tail lights.

Cheers

It's a good idea to keep your models modular, so you can auto-retopo them more easily. Try to run it on all the individual parts, separately, if you haven't already.

[kenmo]

When I model in Wings3D or Hex or Silo3D that's exactly what I do. However I have no idea how to do this in 3DC. Any tutorials on this?

I did build my base mesh in Groboto3D. I then added parts from the tinker kit to the model.  I do not have the foggiest idea how to build a modular model in 3DC.

Also, I really do not want to have to repo by hand.  I really dislike the idea of having to model the same object a second time. As far as learning another app, Instantmesh is quite easy to learn, free and much faster then 3DC's autopo function.

I did try your strokes suggestion and watched the 4th video but nether really did anything for me...

Thanks kindly...

Link to InstantMesh https://github.com/wjakob/instant-meshes

 

[kenmo]

That model, overall, may be rather simple, but it has a fair number of complex shapes for an Auto-Retopo toolset, regardless of whether it is done in 3DC or ZB. You have to try and dumb it down for the algorithm. If you model has really sharp edges, you might get a better result by enabling the Hard Edge option in the Auto-Retopo dialog. 

Sorry but I do not see any Hard-Edge option in the dialogue box...

 

[Count Joshula]

uncheck Voxelize Before Quadrangulation, and it will appear

[kenmo]

Thanks kindly. I appreciate the reply. I spent a couple of hours each day last week and all of today (at least 8 hours) on using 3DC's autopo and also manual retopolgy. It's just not for me.

I can get better results with ZBrush remesher (but I don't own ZB only using the trial) and also with InstantMeshes. I find it odd that a FREE program like InstantMeshes does a superior job at retopology than 3DC. And I really hate the idea of doing a manual retopology. It's just dumb that a second remodeling of a mesh is required after creating it the first time. Just dumb. The autopo process in 3DC needs to be a lot better. If ZBrush and a FREE program can do it than 3DC should be able to as well...

Thanks for all the replies. They are much appreciated.

In case anyone wants a mesh to play with, here it is. I had to ZIP it as the OBJ is 400K in size. But I'm done using 3DC for retolopogy. 

Cheers

Ken

 

SpaceRod.rar

Edited November 12, 2016 by kenmo
add OBJ in zipped format

[AbnRanger]

6 hours ago, kenmo said:

Thanks kindly. I appreciate the reply. I spent a couple of hours each day last week and all of today (at least 8 hours) on using 3DC's autopo and also manual retopolgy. It's just not for me.

I can get better results with ZBrush remesher (but I don't own ZB only using the trial) and also with InstantMeshes. I find it odd that a FREE program like InstantMeshes does a superior job at retopology than 3DC. And I really hate the idea of doing a manual retopology. It's just dumb that a second remodeling of a mesh is required after creating it the first time. Just dumb. The autopo process in 3DC needs to be a lot better. If ZBrush and a FREE program can do it than 3DC should be able to as well...

Thanks for all the replies. They are much appreciated.

In case anyone wants a mesh to play with, here it is. I had to ZIP it as the OBJ is 400K in size. But I'm done using 3DC for retolopogy. 

Cheers

Ken

 

SpaceRod.rar

It's NOT dumb. When you find yourself constantly piddling with vertices, edges and faces, while poly-modeling...trying to keep the topology clean while building the mesh, you consume as much (if not more) time, in the long run, as you would voxel Modeling > Retopo/Auto-Retopo. Voxel modeling lets you pretty much just create and not have to worry about welding verts or cleaning up boolean operations. Once you have a voxel model created, Retopo is NOT the same as building a model from scratch. It's like comparing paint by numbers to actually having to hand paint a portrait. You're just "tracing" over a higher poly version to create a lower poly version.

Once you know how to use Auto-Retopo and the Strokes tool, it works pretty well. But if something else works better for you, then stick with it. No software is going to be tops in every single feature set.

 

[AbnRanger]

...After importing the object, I can see that you did not follow my advice about keeping all the parts on separate layers. THAT IS CRITICAL. Why? Because you are trying to throw a bunch of complex shapes at an algorithm. AN ALGORITHM. That's why even Z-Remesher won't help. KEEP IT SIMPLE, when using Auto-Retopo, or manual retopo. The same thing applies to Z-Remesher in ZB, too!

So, for example, let's say you voxel model a complex weapon, like a SCAR or M-4. In the real world, it isn't made up of just one object or material. It is made up of several individual parts. You want to leave them separate, rather than trying to weld them all together, as you did with this spacecraft model. With them separated, you run Auto-Retopo on each layer one at a time, separately. That is how it works. It won't work properly if you just merge all the parts together and try to run an Auto-Retopo routine on it. You are pushing it beyond it's designed intentions.

Algorithms are rather dumb. They don't really know what you want, without a good deal of direction. That is why, it is sometimes necessary to use manual retopo tools. But, if you don't want to be bothered with a little pre-planning (deciding to keep your models modular so it can be auto-retopologized successfully), then yeah.....you are probably going to want to poly-model in your preferred 3D app, going forward.

[kenmo]

I built this model over a year ago. So in future I head your advice. As I said in an earlier thread due to the short summers and long winters in Nova Scotia, I tend to be outdoors during the summer. I'm an avid antique car owner and photographer (landscapes, scenes, automotive). In the winter I do my 3D modeling. I used to play recreational hockey until I was 51. Now into my 60s I find 3D modeling very creative and somewhat relaxing and sometimes frustrating. I am still employed as a network system admin. I spend a lot of time in front of a computer. Sometimes too long.

I was going to  heed your advice and remodel the space car but during the transition this summer built I5-2500K to to my home built I7-4770S I lost the original Groboto mesh.

My opinion is retopologyzing is indeed modeling the model a second time. The software should be smart enough when exporting as an OBJ to create mesh that adheres to the polygon flow of the original mesh. When I exported the mesh from Groboto, there was a nice flow. 3DC created a mess upon export. I suspect the mess was created during the voxelization stage. I love 3DC for texturing and UV Mapping. It is second to NONE I've tried. I just HATE the retopo option. I believe as the sculpting software gets better and more sophisticated this option will become redundant.

Cheers

Ken

http://kenmo.fineartamerica.com/

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[kenmo]

If you try my mesh with InstantMeshes you will find it does a much better job at remeshing the single object then 3DC in autopo model. ZB remesher does a better job then 3DC but I didn't try the polypaint and density options in ZB.

It's mind blowing that a FREE like InstantMeshes outperforms 3DC.

[kenmo]

Ok... I found another Space Car I created in Groboto3D last year and imported it into 3DCoat. I then had the separate  parts (rood, nose, fender, fin, etc) displayed as separate objects in 3DC.

This is a simple mesh and I've not added any details to it via the Tinker Package & Greebles.

I then did a separate autopo on each object and B-A-N-G-O like AbnRanger said a retop mesh appeared in a few seconds....

Many thanks AbnRanger... Looks like 3DC's autopo option will be fine. I do realize I will have a few more frustrations along the way, but again thank you!!!!

Not sure what happened with the slight gaps in image #1 and image #2. But the mesh for the opposite side was fine...

Cheers :-)

Ken

 

 

[kenmo]

If you try my mesh with InstantMeshes you will find it does a much better job at remeshing the single object then 3DC in autopo model. ZB remesher does a better job then 3DC but I didn't try the polypaint and density options in ZB.

It's mind blowing that a FREE like InstantMeshes outperforms 3DC.