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Modeling in Voxels is Fun


kenmo
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Modeling in Voxels is fun and a model can be knocked out pretty quickly....

Here's a model I created within a 30 minutes or so in the Voxel room. 

Here's a screen capture of the model in Silo3D after it's been retoped. In Silo3D I duplicated the top window and added some bars to the lower & top windows.

Tower-3DC.jpg

Tower-Silo3D.jpg

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Now what I dislike about 3D Coat is the fact that models when exported are pretty useless in Vue Complete 2015 unless they are retoped.

I tried doing an automatic retopo in 3DC of each of the individual parts. It took about 3 hours for all the parts to be retoped. And I didn't like how the topology resulted on some of the parts.

I then did a manual retop on the tower base and on the tower top. It took close to 3 hours to do the top alone. Way too long.

Finally I used Instant Meshes and it was only a matter of seconds before I had a retoped part. 

I would prefer to retopo by hand having more control over the edge loops and topology for uv mapping. But that takes more time then doing the model from scratch in Silo3D or Hexagon3D or even perhaps Wings3D. 

So not sure what the purpose of Voxels is. Yeah you can create some neat stuff, but I really dislike the process of retopologyzing. It reminds me too much of modeling in Milkshape or the point to point process in Maxon's Cinema4D.

In the past I've tried doing a render of the object in 3DC or a screen capture of the Voxel room and brought the image into Photoshop and cleaned  it up. Then in ArtRage or Painter use the image as a kind of underpainting.

Edited by kenmo
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Here's a sci-fi type panel I created in 3DC. The walls are created in the Voxel room. I then added some greebles I've created over the past couple of years in Groboto3D and Wings3D. But the sad fact remains, the object now has to be retopologyzed...

Panel02.jpg

Sci-Panel.jpg

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Perhaps a better alternative would be to create the base panels in 3DC and retopo the panel. Then add the greebles in Silo3D or Hexagon3D?

Sorry but I'm really confused about Voxels and retopologyzing. Again, I really have a great disdain for having to model an object TWICE.

I've tried every retopo mode in 3DC, Auto, ABRanger's mode of strokes, manual. And I really hate them ALL. I would prefer the manual mode. But again, it's too timely.

So what am I missing? What am I doing wrong?

I would prefer to use my models in Vue Complete.

 

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Here's a model of a Zepellin I modeled in Groboto3D and Hexagon3D. Textured in 3DC and rendered in Vue Complete using the NPR render type. Buildings were purchased from Cornucopia.

p2086535393-5.jpg

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Same Zep model but where I used the screen capture approach and painted in ArtRage a background.

p992703228-5.jpg

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This was influenced by Robert E Howard's Conan tale, "Tower of the Elephant". Prison was modeled in Hexagon, the elephant character in Sculptris. Texturing in 3DC, Base render in Vue was then painted over in ArtRage. Lightroom CC 2015 was used to give the image a monochrome look. Mouse was painted in ArtRage.

 

p870533178-4.jpg

 

Now don't get me wrong I love 3DCoat. I think it's a wonderful program for texturing and UV mapping. I just don't get grasp the Voxel room. Yeah I know Voxel room is quick & easy. But ...

Edited by kenmo
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I use voxels for making normalmaps and game assets. You can either make a high res model and then retopo to bake the maps or you can import a complete low poly with uvs and turn it into voxels for detailng...

Voxels are very handy tool

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So do most retopo their voxel scuplts and if YES, are they retopo'd in 3DC or another app? Or do some of you use the dense voxel mesh via exporting as an obj in other apps?

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Wow... I'm surprised that others have not posted what they are doing with their 3DC creations (rendering in 3DC, using as paint overs in Photoshop, under painting in Painter, retoping to use in Vue, not retoping, decimating instead of retoping, etc).

Also any good suggestions on how to get your models into a rendering app like Vue without retopologyzing?

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On 12/4/2016 at 5:02 PM, micro26 said:

I use voxels for making normalmaps and game assets. You can either make a high res model and then retopo to bake the maps or you can import a complete low poly with uvs and turn it into voxels for detailng...

Voxels are very handy tool

Yes but once you add the details to the low poly model what do you do? Export it directly as a dense obj or retopo?

 

 

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But retopo adds time and is in essence modeling your object a second time using the old point to point mode of "Milkshape3D". Sure you can sculpt an object in no time but adding  retoping to the workflow, I could probably create models much faster in Silo3D or Hexagon3D. And they don't need to be retopo'd. The same with Groboto3D, no need to retopo.

Sorry, but I really don't get the love affair of retopologyzing... I would rather spend my time on the artistic side and less on the technical. I do computer and network support for a living for the past 30 years. When it comes to my leisure time, I just want to create (photography, 3D model/render, digital paint).

As I said earlier, I've tried InstantMeshes and it does a much faster and better job than 3DC's autopo function. We need something similar in 3DC.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by kenmo
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I did all my retopo in 3d coat and it works fine. Not sure what your problem is.

Sure some objects are easier to create in modelling programm as in a sculpting programm. But you could retopo all realy quick in 3d coat.

Anyway, 3 hours for that tower is to much, maybe you should learn how 3d coat works, instead of saying that programm or that programm is better then 3d coat.

 

The only benefit i see in instantmesh is the visual effect after using the strokes, but the rest is realy similar.

 

Here is a link to my youtube channel and you could take a look over it if do some retopo.

https://www.youtube.com/user/Kalten1979/featured

 

Edited by Malo
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7 hours ago, kenmo said:

But retopo adds time and is in essence modeling your object a second time using the old point to point mode of "Milkshape3D". Sure you can sculpt an object in no time but adding  retoping to the workflow, I could probably create models much faster in Silo3D or Hexagon3D. And they don't need to be retopo'd. The same with Groboto3D, no need to retopo.

Sorry, but I really don't get the love affair of retopologyzing... I would rather spend my time on the artistic side and less on the technical. I do computer and network support for a living for the past 30 years. When it comes to my leisure time, I just want to create (photography, 3D model/render, digital paint).

As I said earlier, I've tried InstantMeshes and it does a much faster and better job than 3DC's autopo function. We need something similar in 3DC.

 

 

 

 

 

Retopologizing a sculpted/voxel model is NOT modeling twice. Voxel Sculpting in many cases is MUCH faster and easier than polygon modeling...especially when cutting/merging boolean operations, making intricate indentions, etc. Having to Retopologize may seem like modeling twice, but it isn't. Why? Because you are essentially tracing over a completed model, and as such, it takes a fraction of the time compared to building a low poly model from scratch, in a major 3D app. Especially if Auto-Retopo is used. That's one major reason why it was developed. To help speed the retopo process up, considerably.

When poly-modeling, I would always find myself wasting a lot of time just piddling with vertices, edges and faces, just trying to make the topology clean. I could voxel model it and retopologize the model well within this wasted amount of time (fooling around with topological edits and cleaning up booleans, etc.)   

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Malo - thanks for the link to your youtube channel. I'll certainly check it out. Presently I'm watching the tutorials of AlienMinefield...

I watched all of his 23 part intro series and now the modeling an arch.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXEHbpkKRdBMdavLQzogyxw

Sadly, I find good tutorials on retoping lacking for 3D Coat. Most of the tutorials for 3DC (intros, painting, sculpting ) are top notch....

Sorry AbnRanger, I must disagree. IMHO retoping is modeling an object twice. I fully agree you can knock out a model much quicker with Voxels then polygonal modeling. But not when I add retoping to the mix. I fully appreciate your youtube channel. You have a very easy to follow manner of presenting and explaining. I enjoy your tutorials. But I've watched your autoping videos 5 times.  I tried your techniques and they did not work for me... :-(

I wonder how people with ZBrushCore get their models into other apps like e-onsoftware's Vue or Poser.  ZBCore is without a retopo function. Perhaps they simply decimate the model?

Edited by kenmo
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The model has been created in parts as you can see from the Voxel tree. Here is the body which I ran 3DC 4.7 auto retopo function on, after 3 hours 3DC 4.7 crashed and I submitted a crash report to this site.

So I tried 3DC 4.5 and after 3 hours nothing was happening except for a dialogue box with the message "creating mesh". By that time I ended 3DC via Windows task manager and fired up InstantMeshes, I had a retopo mesh in less then a minute. Yeah it wasn't all quads, had tris and several n-gons but nothing I couldn't fix in Hexagon.

Also in the Sculpt room I'm adding detail via greebles I've created and the tinkerkit. But wait a second I thought. The tinkerkit and my greebles are OBJs. So why am I bringing these into the Sculpt room as OBJs and converting them to Voxels, only to have to retopo then again? Sorry I don't get that.

Would it not a better option be to bring the base body into Silo3D or Hexagon3D and add the greebles and Tinkerkit models there?

Groboto3D creates a mesh from shapes and Boolean functions. The mesh is created very fast and has nice edge loops and topology. Why can't 3DC do some similar? No need to retopo in Groboto3D....

Sadly Darrell is sick and there hasn't been any updates on Groboto3D. I think what little time he has is spent on MeshFusion for MODO...

 

FlyingMachine02.jpg

Edited by kenmo
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Seems like the best solution for me is to forget about retopo altogether.

I exported the body directly from the sculpt room selecting a  reduction of about 98%. Here's a screen capture of it in the paint room...And inside Hexagon3D.

Hoping this will work for me until 3DC gets the autop function working a lot better and quicker. I find it appalling that a free app like InstantMeshes works so much quicker and with good results then a commercial like 3DCoat.

FlyingMachine03.jpg

FlyingMachine04-Hex.jpg

FlyingMachine04-Hex-wire.jpg

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12 hours ago, kenmo said:

Malo - thanks for the link to your youtube channel. I'll certainly check it out. Presently I'm watching the tutorials of AlienMinefield...

I watched all of his 23 part intro series and now the modeling an arch.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXEHbpkKRdBMdavLQzogyxw

Sadly, I find good tutorials on retoping lacking for 3D Coat. Most of the tutorials for 3DC (intros, painting, sculpting ) are top notch....

Sorry AbnRanger, I must disagree. IMHO retoping is modeling an object twice. I fully agree you can knock out a model much quicker with Voxels then polygonal modeling. But not when I add retoping to the mix. I fully appreciate your youtube channel. You have a very easy to follow manner of presenting and explaining. I enjoy your tutorials. But I've watched your autoping videos 5 times.  I tried your techniques and they did not work for me... :-(

I wonder how people with ZBrushCore get their models into other apps like e-onsoftware's Vue or Poser.  ZBCore is without a retopo function. Perhaps they simply decimate the model?

Thanks. As I mentioned before, if you plan ahead a little bit...knowing Auto-Retopo's capabilities...you can get what you want if you keep your model "modular." Don't merge a bunch of parts together unless you plan to manually retopologize it. Auto Retopo works best when you stick to the K.I.S.S method...cause it is still a dumb algorithm. Dumb in that it has almost no idea what it is you are asking it to do....in terms of generating clean topology, when you throw a complex group of shapes at it. So, you have to simplify the task as much as you can. This would be applicable to ZBrush's Zremesher, too.

Also, even if you are having to RE-topolgize manually...it is still tracing over a completed model. Thus it is not the same as having to build a poly model from scratch. It's MUCH easier and MUCH faster tracing topology over a completed model than otherwise. So, the speed of Voxel Modeling + speed of retopologizing/auto retopo is still faster in many cases than just polymodeling and piddling with verts, edges and faces (trying to keep the model clean as you go = HUGE waste of time).

Polymodel something really complex and keep track of your time. Then do a similar project with Voxel modeling + auto-retopo/manual retopo. You'll see what I mean. There are some advantages to both, but IMO, the latter is faster overall.

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Thanks kindly AbnRanger for your reply. I really appreciate it. However if I wanted to create a simple model (or as you say K.I.S.S.) I would probably use Silo3D or Hexagon3D. The reason I use 3DC is to create complicated models and of course in a modular format. I have NO idea how I could create the base mesh above any simpler in 3DC.

Last night I did once again try your strokes method in 3DC and I got less then desirable results. And in frustration I came up with the technique above that seems to work for me.

I really do not want to get into retopologyzing by hand,

3D modeling/rendering is a hobby to me, Along with my antique car (60 Corvette) and photography->Lightroom/Photoshop, digital painting/illustrating->Painter/ArtRage and 3Dstuff->Hexagon3D/Silo3D/VueComplete/Curvy3D/Groboto3D/3DC - I really don't want to spend alot of time on a single prop I may use once or twice in a Vue Render. I work full time and have other family commitments. To spend time retoping a model is just not where I want to spend my down time. I'm not a pro 3D animator or modeler. And at age 60+ I have no dreams of working for Disney or Marvel Comics, I am a hobbyist who does sell stock photos and some prints. But time is limited. All the more reason why an autoping option like InstantMeshes would be a god send to me.

 

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Here's a steam locomotive model I've been working on in Groboto3D. I last worked on it winter past. Summer came and I step away from the computer going to car shows and doing landscape photography.

I'm also posting a screen capture of the model after it's been meshed in Groboto3D. The process only takes a minute or less. The same auto process in 3DC would probably take a week... :-)

The model is far from finished. I was thinking of bringing the model into 3DC to add parts and finish. But NO thanks I don't need the headache in adding detail and then retoping. I'll do that in Silo3D....

 

Loco-Grobo.jpg

Loco-mesh.jpg

Edited by kenmo
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I'm not as experienced as you are in 3d modeling but I accepted long time ago that if you are sculpting freely with the likes of voxels or dynamesh there is no way to avoid retopologizing.

It is kind of like modeling with ngons where you still have to manually fix your topology and edge flow during or in the end somehow. 

If you are seriously picky about your hard surface then there are the likes of fusion 360 but you will still have to retopo. 

Coming from Zbrush, I'm having alot of fun with 3d coats voxels especially trying to come up with original helmet-armor type shapes using layers and cuts and hides etc. But I know in the end I too will have to suffer trying to retopologize, auto or manual, either here or in silo etc. 

Thats also why I'm trying to make sure my model is worth the pain :D

 

 

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I think you have to accept that if you are going to sculpt things then some models will be easier to make in a sculpt setting and others are more easy to make in a traditional polygon program. 

Personally i think once you learn the tools you will be good with them no matter what they are.  Trust me I'm not that good but have seen some really good work turned out in just about every program. 

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14 hours ago, Koray said:

I'm not as experienced as you are in 3d modeling but I accepted long time ago that if you are sculpting freely with the likes of voxels or dynamesh there is no way to avoid retopologizing.

It is kind of like modeling with ngons where you still have to manually fix your topology and edge flow during or in the end somehow. 

If you are seriously picky about your hard surface then there are the likes of fusion 360 but you will still have to retopo. 

Coming from Zbrush, I'm having alot of fun with 3d coats voxels especially trying to come up with original helmet-armor type shapes using layers and cuts and hides etc. But I know in the end I too will have to suffer trying to retopologize, auto or manual, either here or in silo etc. 

Thats also why I'm trying to make sure my model is worth the pain :D

 

 

 

6 hours ago, iceage said:

I think you have to accept that if you are going to sculpt things then some models will be easier to make in a sculpt setting and others are more easy to make in a traditional polygon program. 

Personally i think once you learn the tools you will be good with them no matter what they are.  Trust me I'm not that good but have seen some really good work turned out in just about every program. 

Yep...to me, stating that Voxel Modeling + Auto-Retopo/Retopo takes too long and is twice the work is about like saying that driving to the store to buy groceries is twice as much work as growing your own fruits and veggies and hunting for the meat you cook. Sure, it might seem like getting in your vehicle and traveling to get your food and bringing it back, is going out of your way...but how much time are you wasting, otherwise? The whole point of going to the store is that it is faster and more convenient.

Cutting and trimming in Voxels takes a tiny, tiny fraction of the time it would require in a typical 3D app, and you when perform booleans, you never have to worry about having to clean up a mess of overlapping vertices and such. Retopologizing a model is much easier and much faster than trying to poly model from scratch. The model is already built, you are just sketching out the topology you want.

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