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[Request] Adjustment layers ?


tmcthree
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13 hours ago, tmcthree said:

Hi, noob question...

Is there any way to do non-destructive colour operations on layers? I'm thginking something like adjustment layers.

Or any other technique would be helpful. 

Thanks in advance

Does Substance Painter or any other 3D texturing painting app have Adjustment layers? Not being snarky, it's just that it's really hard for Andrew to incorporate every feature in Photoshop, such as adjustment layers while trying to add feature requests from ZBrush for sculpting, and add more modeling tools to the Retopo Workspace. However, if a competing app already has it, that might compel Andrew to prioritize it more highly. You can make adjustments through the Texture's menu > Adjust, but it's not an adjustment layer, obviously.

There are going to be some features in Photoshop that 3D Coat doesn't have or doesn't work quite as well in 3D Coat, and there are some features in 3D Coat that work better than PS. So, it's a really good idea to use them together, rather than expect Andrew to copy everything from PS (others want him to copy the Liquify tool, as well). The integration between PS and 3D Coat and PS is so tight, it makes sense to use both...rather than just one or the other.

It's very easy to do. Only 2 hotkey combinations needed. CTRL P to get all current layers into PS with a UV wireframe included. Then, CTRL S inside PS to send layer changes back to 3D Coat.

 

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22 hours ago, tmcthree said:

Sorry, maybe I'm not clear on the forum rules here. Are you saying I shouldn't ask if features exist unless I already know in advance that they do? In which case, what exactly would be the point of asking?

No, there isn't an adjustment layers feature, but you do have tight PS integration...just a hotkey combo to send layers + Wireframe to PS and another keystroke combo to get the layers back. If there are adjustment layers in Substance Painter (direct competitor), then you might mention that to Andrew, if you send him a request for it (support@3dcoat.com). He seems to treat those requests with more urgency. 

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9 hours ago, tmcthree said:

Is that non destructive?

I don't know how you plan to use it...how many round trips and at what stages....whether using the ADJUSTMENT options in the Textures menu (in 3D Coat) will suffice to make final adjustments or if you want to go back to , etc. Try it and see. But no, there are no adjustment layers in 3D Coat, currently. If you try the PS <> 3D Coat integration to be insufficient and a deal killer, then feel free to send Andrew and email (support @3DCoat.com). It's best to show him exactly why there is a pressing need for it, in a screen recording and send him the link to it in your email. It's the best way to convince him it's not just another ordinary request among the hundreds already on the list.

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Did I accidentally post this in a feature request section? I'm pretty sure I just asked if adjustment layers, or some similar technique, exists in 3d coat already.

You seem to be replying to me as if I'm demanding that the devs drop everything and impliment adjustment layers imeadiately... I'm not.

I'm sure the devs are perfectly aware of the existance adjustment layers as a tool in other software and don't need me to request them anyway. I imagine they'll impliment them when other, more pressing/interesting tasks are complete.

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6 hours ago, tmcthree said:

Did I accidentally post this in a feature request section? I'm pretty sure I just asked if adjustment layers, or some similar technique, exists in 3d coat already.

You seem to be replying to me as if I'm demanding that the devs drop everything and impliment adjustment layers imeadiately... I'm not.

I'm sure the devs are perfectly aware of the existance adjustment layers as a tool in other software and don't need me to request them anyway. I imagine they'll impliment them when other, more pressing/interesting tasks are complete.

I was just mentioning how best to get a feature like that, added, if you find the PS <> 3D Coat linkage insufficient. Not a guarantee that he will. But sending an email, showing him via a screen recording would be the best way. I think part of the reason why it's probably not only missing in 3D Coat, but every other painting application, is because there are so many different adjustment layer modes in PS, and making them compatible with PS would seem to be a massive undertaking. Just my 2 cents worth.

You can see the user merging down the Adjustment layer in PS, before sending the updates back to 3D Coat. It's what I was going to suggest, earlier, but I don't know if that would work in your situation. He mentions it around the 11:30 mark:

 

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There are still no non-destructive adjustments in 3D Coat 2021/Textura afaics. The bridge back/forth to PS does not solve the lack of these at all.

Substance Painter, Marmoset Toolbag 4, etc. they all offer this at a bare minimum to offer total , non destructive fine control over your textures.

There are currently no ways to work non destructively in 3D Coat regarding adjustments, which is a bummer.

Like, all the time in production you don't want to actually really apply a sharpen adjustment or a saturation adjustment.

You want to be able to lower/raise the effect if need be, after testing it in engine or renderer.

Adjustment Layers (or filters) are urgently needed, if 3D Coat ever wants to be a serious competitor to Substance Painter for production work.

Personally I find it sad, cause of the tons of potential that 3D Coat already has to be one of the best options out there. But without some of the basic features, such as

proper (non-cumbersome) ID Map handing, non-destructive Adjustments, proper layer groups with "PassThrough" blend mode, B+W masks, it is not a viable option for most people who need to iterate a lot and/or are art directed.

What will you tell your art director when he says your textures have gotton too sharp at a certain point in time? "Wait, I need to get back to like ten versions prior of my file" ? What will you do if at some point you realize you have decreased your hue for your wall too much to fit your level in your game engine? In both cases, simply smooth or re-adjust hue still won't change the fact that there was a destructive adjustment that altered my textures for good.

It makes no sense to offer a modern texturing app without the ability to make non-destructive adjustments (to all PBR channels by the way, not just color).

And no, it is simply untrue that other texturing software does not offer this:

"Does Substance Painter or any other 3D texturing painting app have Adjustment layers?"

Sorry @AbnRanger but other software does! :) Setting up an adjustment layer with selectable PBR channels has alwas been just several clicks away when you use Substance Painter. Yes, they are not called adjustment layers per se, but they exist if you set the layers with filters to passthrough mode, which 3D Coat lacks.

Even better it is now with Marmoset toolbag 4, which has true adjustment layers.

I pinged @Andrew Shpagin bout it in another thread already, as this feature is also directly tied to the lack of a "Passthrough" blend mode:

I find it really surprising that with a lot of people using 3D Coat for texturing, these things have not become a thing, yet. It is pretty hard to completely make "the switch"  from or replace Substance Painter due to these reasons. Even though the painting and selection tools in Coat are superior in every other regard.

3D Coat is just a few polishes and minor basic features away from becoming insanely more powerful than it's competitors in regards of texturing. It is a true gem in a lot of regards, from the flawless, decent tablet support, the incredible responsiveness, fantastic brush engine and curve tools, to simply the most artistic feel in a software overall.

I just hope that this gem gets polished to truly make it shine where there is still a bit of a rock layer on top here and there.

But if crit or requests like this is met defensive, it harms the progression of the software more than the protective attitude helps.

I know the team is small, and especially considering that and that it can do everything the pipeline needs, which is a gazillion things more than texturing alone, 3D Coat is beyond impressive.

But priorities should lie in the usability of the texturing part of the software for production, and thus, also make it more non-destructive, imho.

Cause in almost all the other regards, it is already "there" or often even way ahead. So I think the weight needs to be evened out on those ends mentioned.

For software progression, I think sometimes it is not adding new features, but make those that are already there adapt to most users contemporary needs, and non-destructiveness is a basic need for every PBR texture artist working professionally nowadays. This is one of the reasons why Substance Painter has become industry standard. Even though it's paint, selection, hide and curve tools are embarissing at best in comparison to 3D Coat.

PBR texture artists would welcome these kinds of changes to the paint room in 3D Coat/Textura much. In long terms, I think you will significantly extend your user base with these fundamental additions and changes of more basic featueres.

Edited by walter_sullivan
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This is actually a great idea...and could be integrated with the nodes implementation however that lands...in which case it would a nodes based adjustment or set of adjustments as opposed to just a layer.


So to clarify to the OP, I don't think it exists currently, but it seems like there might be a pathway for a similar non-destructive workflow.

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It would good if the Layer in the paint room could 'own' the node graph and be used for sculpt layers, pbr procedural textures and adjustments such as levels/hsl/colorbalance/blur/etc

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  • Carlosan changed the title to [Request] Adjustment layers ?
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19 hours ago, gbball said:

This is actually a great idea...and could be integrated with the nodes implementation however that lands...in which case it would a nodes based adjustment or set of adjustments as opposed to just a layer.


So to clarify to the OP, I don't think it exists currently, but it seems like there might be a pathway for a similar non-destructive workflow.

To do it with nodes would also be fine. In fact, it would even come with its own power. I use Substance Designer a lot, and the HSL, Blur and Sharpen nodes are pretty awesome there.

I think that with a procedural node system somehow married to the paint room, also offering such adjustments, the possibilities of 3D Coat for texturing would be exorbitant.

Crossing fingers how this comes out. It would be truly insanely powerful to have Substance Painter and Designer features in one single texturing program. This is what a lot of people fantasized about for years and when delivered well, I think could be a game changer for 3D Coats texturing part. (That is, if the minor but bugging issues like super slow, unresponsive opacity sliders and other stuff ever gets fixed as well)

The only app that goes into this direction currently is "ArmorPaint". But being developed by a solo dev and open source/free, last time I checked, it is far from 3D Coats or Painters abilities. But it was praised for that I heard (Never used it much myself). So there should be an actual example of how "a paint room "owns" a graph" freely available.
(Random Video timestamp I found on it:


I would much prefer using nodes for actual texturing work instead of for shaders or sculpting. I think it is the part of the pipeline that benefits the most from it, and hence I feel should be prioritized for the node implementation.

Edited by walter_sullivan
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Yeah, I know there is a bunch of stuff in development.  I wonder what the rollout will look like.  But I've heard mention of an updated rending engine, and nodes are there, but no formal announcements about it really, so I imagine it's still in development.  I believe I've heard talk of paint room integration, but I don't know what that will look like ultimately...whether it will be tied to smart materials, or something more robust, or both.  But it looks like there are plans for the use of nodes in several areas of the program.

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