[Request] Adjustment layers ?

[tmcthree]

Hi, noob question...

Is there any way to do non-destructive colour operations on layers? I'm thginking something like adjustment layers.

Or any other technique would be helpful. 

Thanks in advance

[AbnRanger]

13 hours ago, tmcthree said:

Hi, noob question...

Is there any way to do non-destructive colour operations on layers? I'm thginking something like adjustment layers.

Or any other technique would be helpful. 

Thanks in advance

Does Substance Painter or any other 3D texturing painting app have Adjustment layers? Not being snarky, it's just that it's really hard for Andrew to incorporate every feature in Photoshop, such as adjustment layers while trying to add feature requests from ZBrush for sculpting, and add more modeling tools to the Retopo Workspace. However, if a competing app already has it, that might compel Andrew to prioritize it more highly. You can make adjustments through the Texture's menu > Adjust, but it's not an adjustment layer, obviously.

There are going to be some features in Photoshop that 3D Coat doesn't have or doesn't work quite as well in 3D Coat, and there are some features in 3D Coat that work better than PS. So, it's a really good idea to use them together, rather than expect Andrew to copy everything from PS (others want him to copy the Liquify tool, as well). The integration between PS and 3D Coat and PS is so tight, it makes sense to use both...rather than just one or the other.

It's very easy to do. Only 2 hotkey combinations needed. CTRL P to get all current layers into PS with a UV wireframe included. Then, CTRL S inside PS to send layer changes back to 3D Coat.

 

[tmcthree]

Sorry, maybe I'm not clear on the forum rules here. Are you saying I shouldn't ask if features exist unless I already know in advance that they do? In which case, what exactly would be the point of asking?

[Ballistic_Tension]

Hey tmcthree  I hear you . Just keep on asking questions and hopefully you will get a more direct answer .It is a way for everyone on here to learn about 3dc.  

[AbnRanger]

22 hours ago, tmcthree said:

Sorry, maybe I'm not clear on the forum rules here. Are you saying I shouldn't ask if features exist unless I already know in advance that they do? In which case, what exactly would be the point of asking?

No, there isn't an adjustment layers feature, but you do have tight PS integration...just a hotkey combo to send layers + Wireframe to PS and another keystroke combo to get the layers back. If there are adjustment layers in Substance Painter (direct competitor), then you might mention that to Andrew, if you send him a request for it (support@3dcoat.com). He seems to treat those requests with more urgency. 

[tmcthree]

Is that non destructive?

[AbnRanger]

9 hours ago, tmcthree said:

Is that non destructive?

I don't know how you plan to use it...how many round trips and at what stages....whether using the ADJUSTMENT options in the Textures menu (in 3D Coat) will suffice to make final adjustments or if you want to go back to , etc. Try it and see. But no, there are no adjustment layers in 3D Coat, currently. If you try the PS <> 3D Coat integration to be insufficient and a deal killer, then feel free to send Andrew and email (support @3DCoat.com). It's best to show him exactly why there is a pressing need for it, in a screen recording and send him the link to it in your email. It's the best way to convince him it's not just another ordinary request among the hundreds already on the list.

[tmcthree]

Did I accidentally post this in a feature request section? I'm pretty sure I just asked if adjustment layers, or some similar technique, exists in 3d coat already.

You seem to be replying to me as if I'm demanding that the devs drop everything and impliment adjustment layers imeadiately... I'm not.

I'm sure the devs are perfectly aware of the existance adjustment layers as a tool in other software and don't need me to request them anyway. I imagine they'll impliment them when other, more pressing/interesting tasks are complete.

[AbnRanger]

6 hours ago, tmcthree said:

Did I accidentally post this in a feature request section? I'm pretty sure I just asked if adjustment layers, or some similar technique, exists in 3d coat already.

You seem to be replying to me as if I'm demanding that the devs drop everything and impliment adjustment layers imeadiately... I'm not.

I'm sure the devs are perfectly aware of the existance adjustment layers as a tool in other software and don't need me to request them anyway. I imagine they'll impliment them when other, more pressing/interesting tasks are complete.

I was just mentioning how best to get a feature like that, added, if you find the PS <> 3D Coat linkage insufficient. Not a guarantee that he will. But sending an email, showing him via a screen recording would be the best way. I think part of the reason why it's probably not only missing in 3D Coat, but every other painting application, is because there are so many different adjustment layer modes in PS, and making them compatible with PS would seem to be a massive undertaking. Just my 2 cents worth.

You can see the user merging down the Adjustment layer in PS, before sending the updates back to 3D Coat. It's what I was going to suggest, earlier, but I don't know if that would work in your situation. He mentions it around the 11:30 mark:

 

[walter_sullivan]

There are still no non-destructive adjustments in 3D Coat 2021/Textura afaics. The bridge back/forth to PS does not solve the lack of these at all.

Substance Painter, Marmoset Toolbag 4, etc. they all offer this at a bare minimum to offer total , non destructive fine control over your textures.

There are currently no ways to work non destructively in 3D Coat regarding adjustments, which is a bummer.

Like, all the time in production you don't want to actually really apply a sharpen adjustment or a saturation adjustment.

You want to be able to lower/raise the effect if need be, after testing it in engine or renderer.

Adjustment Layers (or filters) are urgently needed, if 3D Coat ever wants to be a serious competitor to Substance Painter for production work.

Personally I find it sad, cause of the tons of potential that 3D Coat already has to be one of the best options out there. But without some of the basic features, such as

proper (non-cumbersome) ID Map handing, non-destructive Adjustments, proper layer groups with "PassThrough" blend mode, B+W masks, it is not a viable option for most people who need to iterate a lot and/or are art directed.

What will you tell your art director when he says your textures have gotton too sharp at a certain point in time? "Wait, I need to get back to like ten versions prior of my file" ? What will you do if at some point you realize you have decreased your hue for your wall too much to fit your level in your game engine? In both cases, simply smooth or re-adjust hue still won't change the fact that there was a destructive adjustment that altered my textures for good.

It makes no sense to offer a modern texturing app without the ability to make non-destructive adjustments (to all PBR channels by the way, not just color).

And no, it is simply untrue that other texturing software does not offer this:

"Does Substance Painter or any other 3D texturing painting app have Adjustment layers?"

Sorry @AbnRanger but other software does! Setting up an adjustment layer with selectable PBR channels has alwas been just several clicks away when you use Substance Painter. Yes, they are not called adjustment layers per se, but they exist if you set the layers with filters to passthrough mode, which 3D Coat lacks.

Even better it is now with Marmoset toolbag 4, which has true adjustment layers.

I pinged @Andrew Shpagin bout it in another thread already, as this feature is also directly tied to the lack of a "Passthrough" blend mode:

I find it really surprising that with a lot of people using 3D Coat for texturing, these things have not become a thing, yet. It is pretty hard to completely make "the switch"  from or replace Substance Painter due to these reasons. Even though the painting and selection tools in Coat are superior in every other regard.

3D Coat is just a few polishes and minor basic features away from becoming insanely more powerful than it's competitors in regards of texturing. It is a true gem in a lot of regards, from the flawless, decent tablet support, the incredible responsiveness, fantastic brush engine and curve tools, to simply the most artistic feel in a software overall.

I just hope that this gem gets polished to truly make it shine where there is still a bit of a rock layer on top here and there.

But if crit or requests like this is met defensive, it harms the progression of the software more than the protective attitude helps.

I know the team is small, and especially considering that and that it can do everything the pipeline needs, which is a gazillion things more than texturing alone, 3D Coat is beyond impressive.

But priorities should lie in the usability of the texturing part of the software for production, and thus, also make it more non-destructive, imho.

Cause in almost all the other regards, it is already "there" or often even way ahead. So I think the weight needs to be evened out on those ends mentioned.

For software progression, I think sometimes it is not adding new features, but make those that are already there adapt to most users contemporary needs, and non-destructiveness is a basic need for every PBR texture artist working professionally nowadays. This is one of the reasons why Substance Painter has become industry standard. Even though it's paint, selection, hide and curve tools are embarissing at best in comparison to 3D Coat.

PBR texture artists would welcome these kinds of changes to the paint room in 3D Coat/Textura much. In long terms, I think you will significantly extend your user base with these fundamental additions and changes of more basic featueres.

Edited January 2, 2022 by walter_sullivan

[gbball]

This is actually a great idea...and could be integrated with the nodes implementation however that lands...in which case it would a nodes based adjustment or set of adjustments as opposed to just a layer.

So to clarify to the OP, I don't think it exists currently, but it seems like there might be a pathway for a similar non-destructive workflow.

[gbball]

It would good if the Layer in the paint room could 'own' the node graph and be used for sculpt layers, pbr procedural textures and adjustments such as levels/hsl/colorbalance/blur/etc

[walter_sullivan]

19 hours ago, gbball said:

This is actually a great idea...and could be integrated with the nodes implementation however that lands...in which case it would a nodes based adjustment or set of adjustments as opposed to just a layer.

So to clarify to the OP, I don't think it exists currently, but it seems like there might be a pathway for a similar non-destructive workflow.

To do it with nodes would also be fine. In fact, it would even come with its own power. I use Substance Designer a lot, and the HSL, Blur and Sharpen nodes are pretty awesome there.

I think that with a procedural node system somehow married to the paint room, also offering such adjustments, the possibilities of 3D Coat for texturing would be exorbitant.

Crossing fingers how this comes out. It would be truly insanely powerful to have Substance Painter and Designer features in one single texturing program. This is what a lot of people fantasized about for years and when delivered well, I think could be a game changer for 3D Coats texturing part. (That is, if the minor but bugging issues like super slow, unresponsive opacity sliders and other stuff ever gets fixed as well)

The only app that goes into this direction currently is "ArmorPaint". But being developed by a solo dev and open source/free, last time I checked, it is far from 3D Coats or Painters abilities. But it was praised for that I heard (Never used it much myself). So there should be an actual example of how "a paint room "owns" a graph" freely available.
(Random Video timestamp I found on it:

I would much prefer using nodes for actual texturing work instead of for shaders or sculpting. I think it is the part of the pipeline that benefits the most from it, and hence I feel should be prioritized for the node implementation.

Edited January 3, 2022 by walter_sullivan

[gbball]

Yeah, I know there is a bunch of stuff in development.  I wonder what the rollout will look like.  But I've heard mention of an updated rending engine, and nodes are there, but no formal announcements about it really, so I imagine it's still in development.  I believe I've heard talk of paint room integration, but I don't know what that will look like ultimately...whether it will be tied to smart materials, or something more robust, or both.  But it looks like there are plans for the use of nodes in several areas of the program.

[Carlosan]

2 hours ago, Andrew Shpagin said:

Other things like adjustment layers, nodes over layers and other are in development.

 

[Henry Townshend]

Any news on non-destructive adjustments?

[Carlosan]

No ,its is not in the current agenda.

[Henry Townshend]

On 2/7/2024 at 11:18 PM, Carlosan said:

No ,its is not in the current agenda.

That's very sad to hear. You are offering a texturing software, and it still being without non destructive adjustments in 2024, which one can't even tell ones coworkers about if you wanna recommend and praise 3d coat/textura, without receiving roll eyes, justified ones, I think you should reconsider the prio of this.

[Carlosan]

My reply was from February
I don't know the current agenda.
Please contact support@3dcoat.com to ask for any feature request

[cread]

Emailed support but would love to hear any updates if possible.  My artists complain about lack of non-destructive adjustment support when I try to push us away from Substance Painter.  This would be a huge win for us and we could completely switch over to 3DCoat.  Thanks so much!

[Galnart]

Please let us know if you get any news about this

[MJonathan]

I agree with everyone here! This request would be a significant change for 3dCoat, as non-destructive software is ideal for production environments. I completely understand that companies like Riot Games have amazing artist working without a non-destructive system in 3dCoat, they have a big budget and a lot of time to make changes. However, in medium and small studios, supervisors or art directors often request live changes, and the ability to connect or disconnect nodes or adjustment layers can make a big difference in terms of budget. That's the main reason why substance is so popular.

I think the forum is not the best place to vote for tool requests because most 3dCoat users are not active here. Many users don't even know they need to send an email to request new features or implementations.
I remember when Substance was property of Allegoritmic, they had a system for gathering customer feedback on new developments, users can vote for the most important features. And in the end, it paid offf! 3DCoat could implement something similar by dividing requests into areas like Sculpt, UVs/Retopo, Painting, Modeling.

To attract new customers and retain existing ones, the company needs to build customer loyalty. That's one of the core principles of marketing. (business moment xD sorry)

And lastly, I want to thank the developers for creating such an amazing software! I absolutely love it!

Edited Thursday at 04:24 AM by MJonathan

[AbnRanger]

On 11/26/2024 at 12:46 AM, cread said:

Emailed support but would love to hear any updates if possible.  My artists complain about lack of non-destructive adjustment support when I try to push us away from Substance Painter.  This would be a huge win for us and we could completely switch over to 3DCoat.  Thanks so much!

I will also contact development about this because it is a personal request/suggestion I made in the past. They added Photoshop style Layer Masks just prior to the release of 2024. I made the request then and Andrew said he did not have time to add it before the release. Hopefully, he will add it in the coming month or two.

[swifty]

3D Coat is missing a massive opportunity to be a serious contender to Substance Painter. For Blender users the Applink makes the workflow seamless and has real benefits. The Applink will bake your Blender textures, including procedural ones – has anyone used Blender’s native baking? It’s awful!! Has anyone used Blender’s texture painting? That’s truly awful too!!  3DC has fair purchasing options, Adobe does not.

No one is going to buy 3DC for its photogrammetry but they will for sculpting, retopo and my area of interest, texturing but only if those tools are improved.

For example … The Fill tool-

Pattern options, you can scale the fractal ones but not the noise type – why is that? And if you try to use them as a mask for another layer, they’re poor quality and pixelated.

Gradient – needs finer controls

You can’t alter HSL, Brightness & Contrast, etc afterwards

Transparency is poorly handled and has to be done on a per object basis

Smart Materials that aren’t that smart. It’s OK if you want to plug in a few PBR textures, slap it on the model and click export. But nowadays users want to do more than that

No Smart Masks.

And today’s issue, I was trying to add Height detail, using a stencil with the polygon brush on several faces but the depth was different on several faces, despite being in orthographic view and using Max. The always helpful Carlson suggested I paint the height on a separate layer for each polygon & whilst I sincerely appreciate the advise – it’s hardly a professional workflow and the irony is, I have some Blender friends who are thinking about buying 3DC and I was working on project based YT tutorial, for them and other new users, on using Blender & 3DC with multiple UDIMs & trying to showcase 3DC’s texturing capabilities – but telling them in order to create consistent depth map over several faces, you have to continually create a new layer. Don’t use the built in patterns of the fill tool for masking as they’re too pixelated. I’m hardly selling it to them, am I? And, as for glass, I wasn’t even going to go there.

3DC has so much going for it, for hand painted textures, 3DC excels. The brush under your pen is so much more responsive than in SP. Adding decals, like graffiti to a wall is quicker & easier in 3DC than in Blender or SP.

It’s fairly stable, yes, like everyone else, I’ve crashed it numerous times, but on the stability scale of Blender vs Maya, it’s definitely closer to Blender than the fundamentally unstable Maya

There is a huge market full of disgruntled SP users, tied to a subscription model that are just waiting to jump ship. Just look at the number of YT videos where people have dumped other Adobe software for Affinity & DaVinci. If the Paint Tools are improved, they will come.