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Users, @Andrew Shpagin and developers of 3D-Coat .... Being sincere ... What do you think?


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I'm new to 3D Coat and I have to say I'm pretty excited.
But I'm also surprised the 3D Coat doesn't have the popularity it actually deserves.
Marketing is also very important and I see some deficits. Why are there no more videos of 3D Coat on YouTube? Why are there no Twitch or YouTube streams from the developers? Books? Events? That's what people love. Activity in the social media. Then people will see what 3D Coat can do.
But I can imagine that all this is also a time and money question.

But maybe you could make a stream once a month to present and discuss features of 3D Coat.
Sorry for my english.

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14 hours ago, Thomas Cheng said:

why not skip the entire surface mode and just refine the voxel sculpt.  Add dynamic voxel resolution and add the advantage of surface into voxels.  Why split your resources to have two sculpt systems.  Voxels seem to have soo many advantages.  I guess we don't have enough voxel programmers?

This may help explain it, a bit. Voxels are really good in some areas, especially when stretching large forms well away from the surface. It's still better than anything ZB or Mudbox offers. It's more fluid and smooth when stretching/extruding those forms. It's also superior to any mesh-based boolean MERGE operation. Surface mode really struggles with MERGING. But Voxels are perfect for Booleans (provided you give the layer the proper amount of resolution to leave sharp edges or details when needed).

However, for raw brush-based sculpting, Surface mode is the best tool for the job.

 

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14 hours ago, Thomas Cheng said:

why not skip the entire surface mode and just refine the voxel sculpt.  Add dynamic voxel resolution and add the advantage of surface into voxels.  Why split your resources to have two sculpt systems.  Voxels seem to have soo many advantages.

I agree and I would like to add a few words that the @AbnRanger spoke....

I understand people can get confused when they start sculpting on 3D-Coat.
I confess that this confusion has happened to me ...
When I started using 3D-Coat, I did not know and did not exactly understand the difference between Voxels and Surface, in my head it did not make sense to have 2 different modes of sculpture inside the 3D-Coat.

Over time, you begin to understand that having the 2 modes is advantageous within your work. This is unique in 3D-Coat.

The two modes that 3D-Coat have are extremely important.
Each one with its respective advantages and disadvantages.

I think currently the technology used in the Voxels would not allow the use of "Dynamic Voxel Resolution" because if you stop to think, the Voxels will theoretically always provide you with a mesh without any problems. You will never worry about mesh topology.
Voxels's main function is to generate the initial volume for your model and easily perform Boolean operations.
You can set the resolution you want, but for the whole volume and not for certain areas.
The disadvantage of voxels is that for you to detail in voxels, you will need a much denser mesh of polygons, and thus slow your system, because of the double calculation that 3D-Coat will do in every brushstroke you make in the model.

On the Surface, you will have all the brushes to perform any detail on the surface of your model, including adding dynamic subdivisions (through Live Clay and other tools). On Surface, you can control the mesh the way you want, so that your computer is not slow.
Of course, depending on how you work with live Clay and other brushes, you may experience problems with the mesh surface of your model, but we have tools available so we can fix any problems or if we do not fix it, we have the option to turn the model into Voxels (by pressing the ENTER key) and instantly the mesh will be repaired.
On the surface mode, if you want, you can start your project from scratch without using Voxels.

I believe that what we have currently is perfect. If you join the strength of the Voxels and Surface your creativity is your limit!

It may be that you are missing out on more specific Brushes in the Voxels to control your model as they exist in Surface Mode.

I would like to suggest to everyone, the development of more Brushes for the Voxels.
So, I believe we will have more control and functionality within the Voxels.

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Quote

 

This may help explain it, a bit. Voxels are really good in some areas, especially when stretching large forms well away from the surface. It's still better than anything ZB or Mudbox offers. It's more fluid and smooth when stretching/extruding those forms. It's also superior to any mesh-based boolean MERGE operation. Surface mode really struggles with MERGING. But Voxels are perfect for Booleans (provided you give the layer the proper amount of resolution to leave sharp edges or details when needed).

However, for raw brush-based sculpting, Surface mode is the best tool for the job.

 

 

Yes, with the current implementation that is the case.  But I"m asking if they can improve voxels to performance as well as surface.

Edited by Thomas Cheng
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6 minutes ago, Thomas Cheng said:

 

Yes, with the current implementation that is the case.  But I"m asking if they can improve voxels to performance as well as surface.

That ADF demo is pretty interesting. It shows that dynamic Voxel Sculpting is possible/feasible. Performance-wise, Andrew would need to recompile his CUDA code in 3D Coat, to the current CUDA version. Right now, it is written using the earliest CUDA version, when Voxels were first introduced. Programmers often have to recompile CUDA code to take advantage of the newer features in CUDA. Andrew has resisted my many requests for this, as he didn't think the cost/benefit ratio was enough to warrant it. Maybe some new voices asking for the same thing, could help. I think ZB 2018 may have lit a fire, compelling him to spend a fair amount of time upgrading the Sculpt tools, and perhaps innovating again.

He said he is going to be working on Sculpt Layers in the Sculpt workspace and is considering the ability to sculpt PAINT OBJECTS in the Sculpt workspace, directly. Both will be tall tasks, but are targets for V5, tentatively sometime within the next 12mos or so. Their normal release schedule is late summer, but that may change this time. Also, there may be some GPU brush engine goodness for the Paint Workspace and much less RAM usage with textures.

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Thanks, but I really think voxel is generally better technology that hasn't really be explored by the masses. Everyone is on polygon, but if we can improve voxel similar to ADF, with dynamic resolution, I think Zbrush will be old news.   We'll still need surface mode to export the voxels to polygons for game engines or render engines, but there also work on a modern voxel based game engine.  I just think copying zbrush is the wrong idea, just continue the voxel technology.  It was the right innovation that needs a bit more updating. 

Edited by Thomas Cheng
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7 hours ago, Spacetime said:

I'm new to 3D Coat and I have to say I'm pretty excited.
But I'm also surprised the 3D Coat doesn't have the popularity it actually deserves.
Marketing is also very important and I see some deficits. Why are there no more videos of 3D Coat on YouTube? Why are there no Twitch or YouTube streams from the developers? Books? Events? That's what people love. Activity in the social media. Then people will see what 3D Coat can do.
But I can imagine that all this is also a time and money question.

But maybe you could make a stream once a month to present and discuss features of 3D Coat.

I also share with you the same feelings you have about 3D-Coat! It's a great program!
That's why I opened this post so that all of us together could strengthen and further improve 3D-Coat through suggestions and more important of all...  we talk to Andrews about it all so he can see what the artists need and direct 3D-Coat in this direction!

I already thought exactly what you said and I agree with you! I also do not understand how 3D-Coat still does not have as much force on YouTube or other media through videos and other media. Be videos of Streams or other media!

When I tried to learn 3D-Coat, I could not find videos about 3D-Coat as easily as we found from other programs! I really had a lot of difficulty in my learning process!!

But I am very grateful for the efforts of the few people who provided some explanation in videos about 3D-Coat.

@AbnRanger, I believe you are behind the official 3D-Coat videos!
Please correct me if I'm wrong!
Thank you! Without the videos you made, I confess that I would not be using 3D-Coat, but the competing program!

Currently, the only source of information I found is the official 3D-Coat videos on youtube, speed sculpting videos and some artist channels (also on youtube).

It would be very good if we also had Streams with varied techniques and subjects about 3D-Coat.
I believe the biggest problem is the availability of time.

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1 hour ago, Thomas Cheng said:

Thanks, but I really think voxel is generally better technology that hasn't really be explored by the masses. Everyone is on polygon, but if we can improve voxel similar to ADF, with dynamic resolution, I think Zbrush will be old news.   We'll still need surface mode to export the voxels to polygons for game engines or render engines, but there also work on a modern voxel based game engine.  I just think copying zbrush is the wrong idea, just continue the voxel technology.  It was the right innovation that needs a bit more updating. 

I was a big fan of Voxels for a long time, but after the Surface mode brush work done in the 4.1 release, I was sold on sculpting in Surface mode, primarily. Blocking out rough forms, cutting, trimming, and performing Boolean operations is still great in Voxels. But the nature of voxels doesn't really lend itself to the nuanced feel of brushing verts and polys. Even with ADF type of dynamic voxel subdivision, it may not remove the disparity in brush feel and performance.

Maybe, just maybe, if Andrew ever did visit the dynamic voxels feature, he could try to improve the brush feel and try to add the same type of Surface mode brushes. That would probably come after V5 was released. There is already a lot on his plate for that release. 

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I been using 3DC for ten years. Since version 2. I have been here for all major and minor improvements in the software.

Thanks for keeping this thread in a positive tone.

3DC is still in very active development, Many many features you have now are a direct result of user feedback, community driven. 

With Andrew's creative genius plus now having more developers, the foundation and power of 3DC has grown tremendously over the years. The future is very good.

I've personally seen so many features added to 3DC that were asked by the community, I can not keep track of them all. 

Now Like all features, Some you go Wow, that was added fast and others you wait, maybe wait some more. but get they there after some time. 

I do agree, 3D-Coat is somewhat undersold. It is a swiss army knife for 3D. I have help many users and some companies understand, Yes you can use 3DC for this workflow or that workflow...

Disclaimer. Not every feature we ask for gets added. That is true of any software package.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by digman
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Once Andrew gets Sculpt Layers added, I plan to try and push the sculpting side of 3D Coat pretty hard, to the extent I can. I have been waiting on this for years, and because of the degree of difficulty, it has been left on the backburner. I felt it would largely be a waste of time to try and show what 3D Coat could do, in this sense, because a lot of Mudbox and ZB users would see it and realize there is no Sculpt Layer functionality...not in the Sculpt workspace, anyway. There is in the Paint Workspace, but using that sort of splits up the Sculpting work into different stages of the pipeline.

With Sculpt Layers and Masking/Morphing of those layers, then a ZB user could see that 3D Coat is indeed very capable of doing high-level sculpting, even if it doesn't have everything they are used to, in ZB. This might be one of the most exciting years in 3D Coat's development. We'll see.

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What is missing in 3D Coat is Zmodeler.

Many people say 3D coat has the primitives retopo, but most don't use it.

It doesn't do the job, modifying retopo is not easy to manipulate , it needs many clicks to select and move some face for example or change selection,  it's a waste of time compared to Zmodeler smooth and faster workflow.


If there was one area 3D Coat would lack from Zbrush,  it's definitively Zmodeler for me.

z4r7_third_test.jpg

maxresdefault.jpg

ZBrush-4R7-Feature-ZModeler-1.jpg?resize

 

http://www.cgmeetup.net/home/zbrush-4r7-zmodeler-tutorial/

 

Edited by Ratchet
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2 hours ago, Ratchet said:

What is missing in 3D Coat is Zmodeler.

 

Not really. This is a repetitive feature for most people. Such works are better with Blender, Maya, 3ds Max or Cinema 4D.

3D Coat or ZBrush should primarily expand sculpting technologies. We do not need a jack of all trades device in one software.

Edited by Spacetime
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No, Zmodeller is definitely something that is pretty great.  Most things with it are quicker and easier than the same in Blender, some things are way more difficult.  Overall though it is a supremely powerful tool, especially in conjunction with all of the other modeling tools of Zbrush.  Also especially as you don't have to fool around with exporting and importing a mesh.  Live Booleans as well is something I'd like to see in the vox room.

3D Coat has sculpting features that are unquestionably better than Zbrush.  Vox sculpting being, by far the biggest.  That said zbrush sculpting is just more complete.  I'd love to have a Crease tool in vox.

Edited by Falconius
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1 hour ago, Falconius said:

No, Zmodeller is definitely something that is pretty great.  Most things with it are quicker and easier than the same in Blender, some things are way more difficult.  Overall though it is a supremely powerful tool, especially in conjunction with all of the other modeling tools of Zbrush.  Also especially as you don't have to fool around with exporting and importing a mesh.  Live Booleans as well is something I'd like to see in the vox room.

3D Coat has sculpting features that are unquestionably better than Zbrush.  Vox sculpting being, by far the biggest.  That said zbrush sculpting is just more complete.  I'd love to have a Crease tool in vox.

If you watch the video I posted above about the VoxPinch brush, you will find a nice Crease brush (Surface Pinch has creasing functionality built in) in Voxel mode. It just happens to use Surface Pinch on the fly, without the need to manually switch modes. 3D Coat does it for the user, under the hood and in a seamless way. I think it would be a good idea to perhaps add all the standard surface mode brushes to that Surface Tools. This lets the user get the best of both worlds without have to switch out of voxel mode. It's pretty powerful, actually. I asked Andrew to move the Surface Tools section to just beneath the Voxel Brushes, that way they are more easily accessed and more logically positioned.

9 hours ago, Ratchet said:

What is missing in 3D Coat is Zmodeler.

Many people say 3D coat has the primitives retopo, but most don't use it.

It doesn't do the job, modifying retopo is not easy to manipulate , it needs many clicks to select and move some face for example or change selection,  it's a waste of time compared to Zmodeler smooth and faster workflow. If there was one area 3D Coat would lack from Zbrush,  it's definitively Zmodeler for me.

To be honest, there is way too much on Andrew's plate right now, for him to spend a lot of time trying to match Z-Modeler feature for feature. Maybe after V5 is released? However, the Poly Modeling tools in 3D Coat (Retopo workspace), right now, are pretty robust. I worked with Andrew quite a bit to get Maya's EXTRUDE tool built into the Transform tool (and Free Transform), and it works even better than 3ds Max's SHIFT-EXTRUDE of edges....because it will extrude Faces, too. You can extrude on the fly, hit the ENTER key and keep extruding, rotating or scaling. You don't have to kit MOVE, ROTATE, SCALE hotkeys because they are built-in to the Gizmo. Pixologic borrowed a lot from 3D Coat when they beefed up their modeling tools. They did a good job and went beyond that, certainly, with the live Booleans, but it's nonetheless an indirect acknowledgement that 3D Coat had/has some good poly-modeling tools itself, IMO.

As for selection, in EDGES mode, you can SHIFT click an edge to select the entire loop. One can assign a hotkey to the sub-objects (verts, edges, faces) and assign a hotkey to expand or contract the selection (the + or - key on the NUM pad might be an easy combination to remember). You can use the SELECT PATH tool to quickly make Point-to-Point selections. So, it's best to go through the tutorials for the Retopo tools before asking for ZB modeling functionality. A lot of it is probably already available in 3D Coat in some form, and then there are some that ZB doesn't have. You can see many of them were added in 4.7.

 

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1 hour ago, AbnRanger said:

If you watch the video I posted above about the VoxPinch brush, you will find a nice Crease brush (Surface Pinch has creasing functionality built in) in Voxel mode. It just happens to use Surface Pinch on the fly, without the need to manually switch modes. 3D Coat does it for the user, under the hood and in a seamless way. I think it would be a good idea to perhaps add all the standard surface mode brushes to that Surface Tools. This lets the user get the best of both worlds without have to switch out of voxel mode. It's pretty powerful, actually. I asked Andrew to move the Surface Tools section to just beneath the Voxel Brushes, that way they are more easily accessed and more logically positioned.

To be honest, there is way too much on Andrew's plate right now, for him to spend a lot of time trying to match Z-Modeler feature for feature. Maybe after V5 is released? However, the Poly Modeling tools in 3D Coat (Retopo workspace), right now, are pretty robust. I worked with Andrew quite a bit to get Maya's EXTRUDE tool built into the Transform tool (and Free Transform), and it works even better than 3ds Max's SHIFT-EXTRUDE of edges....because it will extrude Faces, too. You can extrude on the fly, hit the ENTER key and keep extruding, rotating or scaling. You don't have to kit MOVE, ROTATE, SCALE hotkeys because they are built-in to the Gizmo. Pixologic borrowed a lot from 3D Coat when they beefed up their modeling tools. They did a good job and went beyond that, certainly, with the live Booleans, but it's nonetheless an indirect acknowledgement that 3D Coat had/has some good poly-modeling tools itself, IMO.

I thought you were referring to the Voxel Pinch Brush, which obviously I've tried with lackluster effect.  Actually I always forget about the live clay tools way down there, but the LC pinch brush does work pretty well.  Actually all the LC tools do.  Which begs the question why aren't other useful brushes there, like scratches 2 (which is probably my favourite brush)?

There are some intense advantages 3d coat has like the carve brush (or the sphere brush since its similar but I hardly ever use it).  I think 3D coat could really build on those sorts of fluid additive or subtractive brushes if they were slightly more... controllable?  Or just if there was a better way to understand where they were in space.  Honestly all in all I still think 3d coat has zbrush beat hands down in brushes.  I find them easier and nicer to use, but maybe that's because I've been using 3d coat for a while and am now just exploring Zbrush.

Zmodeller is not going to sell the program since, as pointed out above, you can get similar results from modeling programs like Maya or Blender even if they are not necessarily as powerful in some areas, more nice is that it is integrated into Zbrushes "Sculpt room" and also that you can initialize some primitive meshes, and that it is quick and good for modeling.  I've attempted to use some of the mesh "modeling" type tools in the retopo room but honestly I find them super finiky and fiddly, and the disappearing and reappearing items on the tool list is also finicky if you are unused to it.  Contextual items are ok and all that but not when they slow you down or get in the way.  That all said I don't think zmodelling type functionality is critical to get in the sculpting room, but as I said earlier it helps make zbrush a more complete experience.

That was a bit of a ramble, but it boils down to what makes Zbrush more appealing sculpt wise (it still doesn't touch 3D coat for painting or or retopo in my opinion) is just that zbrush feels like it has a more complete and comprehensive package put together, and that they are integrated with one another nicely.  3D coat would benefit from adding sculpt layers, but it would also benefit a bit from some better organization of the features it already has.  That said I'm sure people with more experience in Zbrush have more concrete ideas of what is missing in 3d coat.

Edited by Falconius
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25 minutes ago, Falconius said:

I thought you were referring to the Voxel Pinch Brush, which obviously I've tried with lackluster effect.  Actually I always forget about the live clay tools way down there, but the LC pinch brush does work pretty well.  Actually all the LC tools do.  Which begs the question why aren't other useful brushes there, like scratches 2 (which is probably my favourite brush)?

There are some intense advantages 3d coat has like the carve brush (or the sphere brush since its similar but I hardly ever use it).  I think 3D coat could really build on those sorts of fluid additive or subtractive brushes if they were slightly more... controllable?  Or just if there was a better way to understand where they were in space.  Honestly all in all I still think 3d coat has zbrush beat hands down in brushes.  I find them easier and nicer to use, but maybe that's because I've been using 3d coat for a while and am now just exploring Zbrush.

Zmodeller is not going to sell the program since, as pointed out above, you can get similar results from modeling programs like Maya or Blender even if they are not necessarily as powerful in some areas, more nice is that it is integrated into Zbrushes "Sculpt room" and also that you can initialize some primitive meshes, and that it is quick and good for modeling.  I've attempted to use some of the mesh "modeling" type tools in the retopo room but honestly I find them super finiky and fiddly, and the disappearing and reappearing items on the tool list is also finicky if you are unused to it.  Contextual items are ok and all that but not when they slow you down or get in the way.  That all said I don't think zmodelling type functionality is critical to get in the sculpting room, but as I said earlier it helps make zbrush a more complete experience.

That was a bit of a ramble, but it boils down to what makes Zbrush more appealing sculpt wise (it still doesn't touch 3D coat for painting or or retopo in my opinion) is just that zbrush feels like it has a more complete and comprehensive package put together, and that they are integrated with one another nicely.  3D coat would benefit from adding sculpt layers, but it would also benefit a bit from some better organization of the features it already has.  That said I'm sure people with more experience in Zbrush have more concrete ideas of what is missing in 3d coat.

Understood. Pixologic has cherry picked a lot of tools from 3D Coat over the past 5yrs or so (credit to them, they generally expand/improve on them, rather than just copying the tools), and Pilgway hasn't done much to reciprocate. ZB has set a high bar in sculpting, so much of their focus has been on non-sculpting tasks. That should give Andrew ample time to go after their bread and butter...sculpting. He doesn't have to match them in every way. Just be in the conversation, where more and more artists prefer to use 3D Coat for sculpting...because of Voxels (ZB doesn't have Voxels...just Dynamesh, which is the equivalent to hitting the ENTER key in 3DC while working in Surface mode), because of the more standardized and simplified UI...because of the 3dconnexion device support (which I do not want to give up, just to work in ZB), and because of the PBR Shaders and PBR Smart Materials that can be applied to my sculpt WHILE I SCULPT.

All he has to do, is come close enough that ZBrush's current overall advantages are very minimal. There will be some exciting new improvements to the Retopo tools, though, just not a focus on Polymodeling. I think V5, if they can pull off their goals, will be a game-changer.

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3 hours ago, AbnRanger said:

However, the Poly Modeling tools in 3D Coat (Retopo workspace), right now, are pretty robust

I'm not sure you worked with it a lot ?

There is selection bugs, for example you choose faces do some extrude, and click on clear selection, and you can't select faces anymore.

You have to select edges and click again on face mode to be able to select face.

 

Selecting 3 faces and normal extrude, one vertex did not extrude, another bug.

When you extrude, you must click apply, why you can't extrude live and see the result as you move the mouse.

There is many bugs indeed.

 

Overall the most problematic is it's not smooth and fluid at usage to work faster in an intuitive way.

Perhaps press space to show a new compact menu containing the selection mode (vertex,faces, edges), and other tools, or tools showing depending on what you selected.

 

A simple feature lacking : Click on faces to select them, click outside of mesh to deselect all faces.

Why there does not it works like that, it's faster and lot better than having to click each time on "deselect all"

 

The retopo models and tools are working, the base is here.

This does not mean to make new tools , but rework the interface , bring a new contextual floating menu, better workflow.

 

 

Anyway i won't wait for for retopo  modeling to improve as it will never come i think, when there is hardsurface modeling needs among scultping i'll just pick Zbrush instead.

 

I'm happy with 3D Coat features, if i had another feature request this will be less memory usage to get less crashes when work becomes heavy.

 

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1 hour ago, Ratchet said:

I'm not sure you worked with it a lot ?

There is selection bugs, for example you choose faces do some extrude, and click on clear selection, and you can't select faces anymore.

You have to select edges and click again on face mode to be able to select face.

 

Selecting 3 faces and normal extrude, one vertex did not extrude, another bug.

When you extrude, you must click apply, why you can't extrude live and see the result as you move the mouse.

There is many bugs indeed.

 

Overall the most problematic is it's not smooth and fluid at usage to work faster in an intuitive way.

Perhaps press space to show a new compact menu containing the selection mode (vertex,faces, edges), and other tools, or tools showing depending on what you selected.

 

A simple feature lacking : Click on faces to select them, click outside of mesh to deselect all faces.

Why there does not it works like that, it's faster and lot better than having to click each time on "deselect all"

 

The retopo models and tools are working, the base is here.

This does not mean to make new tools , but rework the interface , bring a new contextual floating menu, better workflow.

 

 

Anyway i won't wait for for retopo  modeling to improve as it will never come i think, when there is hardsurface modeling needs among scultping i'll just pick Zbrush instead.

 

I'm happy with 3D Coat features, if i had another feature request this will be less memory usage to get less crashes when work becomes heavy.

 

Not much. Just the past 10yrs or so. Have you gone through all the Quick Start tutorials for the Retopo tools?  You really should. It will help a ton. As for bugs, I've said this a number of times, recently...If you are finding a bug or bugs, make a list of them (mention how to reproduce and what Build and OS you are using) and send them to Andrew at support@3dcoat.com

That's what I have been doing for years and Andrew is fairly responsive. Bugs take priority, but he is busy as a bee all day long, so the shorter the message the better chance he will respond. A long-winded one probably won't, because he is usually neck deep in some feature or fixing other things. I just tested the first two issues you mentioned, and they work properly on my end, as you can see in the video.

I also address some of your other issues, such as it being too tedious to drop a selection, "when you extrude you must hit apply." Hitting the ENTER key is the same as clicking APPLY.

 

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2 hours ago, Ratchet said:

I'm not sure you worked with it a lot ?

...I understand the frustration of bugs, sometimes. But it happens with every software. Sometimes I just close the app and restart if it gets quirky on me. Could be the Options.xml file got buggered up, which can happen once in a while. If I notice strange behavior, that will usually be my 2nd step (MyDocs/3D Coat 4.8 directory > delete the OPTIONS.XML file).

But, before you get upset at the seeming lack of features in this area or that, make sure to watch the tutorials that cover it. The very thing you want may be right under your nose, so to speak. The ESC key is a universal key command to deselect faces, edges and verts. In the UV tools, CTRL + LMB deselects islands and CTRL + D deselects just about everything in 3D Coat, just like Photoshop.

 

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Hello,

I joint this topic little late and didn't have chance to read thru all replies since there is alot. However, seems to me this topic is discussion about 3dcoat improvement and a little bit about new zbrush 2018. Since I have some thought about it too so I tip it in here.

here is my thoughts.

I have been using 3dcoat over 10 years since its very early state. Before that, I used zbrush and Zbrush is the reason I found 3dcoat due to its limitations.

After that I never left 3dcoat. its my main software to sculpt. Never look back zbrush until lately.

Dont' want everyone have to read too much so I go to the main points. 

To me, (my opinions only). 3dcoat is way supper over zbrush in many way. (ofcourse it has it limitations). Zbrush has been trying to keep up with 3dcoat even its latest release 2018. (they talked about new tool like sculptris (what they called?) which 3dcoat live clay has exist over 5 years i think. The cut tool in 3dcoat is amazing compare to zbrush (have too many click to achieve in 3dcoat one click). ect...

To me, there is no such thing is perfect software. (max vs maya, modo, ect...) each of them have pros and cons. you have to find the pros and use that for you need. I personal think for texturing, nothing can beat substance painter. For sculpting orgainic (characters) is zbrush due to it ability to go back lower version and non destructive plus some of it sculpting tools. 3dcoat is supper for "chop" things out and so easy to do. However lately, zbrush and 3dcoat is closing the gap for hard surface modeling which none of them are superior than max, maya or modo. You now can achieve the hard surface look using zbrush or 3dcoat. However, both softwares still have alot room to improve.  3dcoat layers system (in sculpting) is way user friendly than zbrush. There are many think I think 3dcoat is way better.

However, There are alot of area 3dcoat NEED to improve on: 

and here is the list I hope Andrew already know.

sculpting area needed a lot of attention: 

None destructive Tubes (glad we have it with newly Tubes/Array tool)

Bevel Tool (able to change the bevel angle: curves or straight)

Able to crease edge (keep sharp edges): this will reduce the flat surface polygon, means no more lagging due to too many polygon.

Able to create soft smooth curves surface (like subdive modeling surface in car modeling). I tried everything to achieve but no luck. I had to work around like block out in 3dcoat, bring it to zbrush, run zmesh (quad), bring to modo and turn it into subdiv, free it, bring it back to 3dcoat and convert it to mesh. If 3dcoat have a tool just like move tool but use points to control (click on the surface to ad control points, (or drag out a curve line on the surface), middle mouse click hold and move the control points. Have soft effect on the mesh, able to add multiple points. With this tool, when using with symmetry, we will able to create any subdiv like surface.

Recently , I was able to create hard surface modeling in 3dcoat. (arguing with cowworker alot about this). I find that 3dcoat cut tool is the main tool for hard surface modeling. This tool is so powerful if using with camera (align to normal). I posted an other topic about camera improvement on the other day just to help this technique go further. If the camera alignment can be solved. it will have so much power on creating hard surface modeling.

Hard surface modeling tools need to be improve and add more (bevel, subdiv like surface creating, camera angle to improve cut, trimp tool).

my two cents. 

again, 3dcoat is awesome. and the thing it makes this one cool is that you can talked to the creator. how cool is that. lol.

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20 hours ago, Spacetime said:

Not really. This is a repetitive feature for most people. Such works are better with Blender, Maya, 3ds Max or Cinema 4D.

3D Coat or ZBrush should primarily expand sculpting technologies. We do not need a jack of all trades device in one software.

I agree with your opinion!

@Falconius
I know ZModeler is an excellent system within Zbrush.
In 3D-Coat retopo / modeling is very good.
Of course, 3D-Coat will improve this area, but for the future ... We can use programs aimed at polygon modeling like Blender.
I use 3D-Coat and Blender through Simple3DCoat Applink which is almost instantaneously importing and exporting from one program to another.

At the moment, I think we need 3D-Coat to direct its development to the Sculpt Room.

I really liked your suggestions:
1) Live Booleans system.
Actually, that would help a lot in the process of sculpting without being destructive. We would have full control over Boolean operations!

2) Development of more brushes in Live Clays.
Without a doubt ... The more brushes the better!
 
3) More primitive meshes that allowed a greater degree of control over their creation characteristics.

I believe that 3D-Coat will improve more and more. We have to understand that 3D-Coat are several programs in one! To maintain quality and develop such a program is complicated! From the beginning, Zbrush only had focus on the area of sculpture and so it went ahead developing calmly the other functionalities.

 

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13 hours ago, AbnRanger said:

I think it would be a good idea to perhaps add all the standard surface mode brushes to that Surface Tools. This lets the user get the best of both worlds without have to switch out of voxel mode. It's pretty powerful, actually. I asked Andrew to move the Surface Tools section to just beneath the Voxel Brushes, that way they are more easily accessed and more logically positioned.

@AbnRanger

We already have, down below, in the Surface Tools session, the brushes: Draw, Pinch, Shift, Flatten, Clay and Rapid. Andrews would only have to add the rest of the standard Surface Brushes.  And if Andrews added the rest of the Surface Brushes to the Voxels, the Brushes palette would be tumultuous.

With this, I would like to suggest 2 things in the 3D-Coat interface:
First thing:
I really miss a custom User Palette / Window (can fit anywhere on the interface) so that we can select or drag the main tools we use most (it can be brushes and also any existing 3D-Coat tool) for this area and would greatly facilitate our work.

Second Thing:
I wish the Brushes Session (Surface and Voxel) would not be static on the left side of the interface. I wish it could be customized too! If it could not be customized, at least give us the chance to put it on the right side of the interface.

 

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21 hours ago, AbnRanger said:

.If you are finding a bug or bugs, make a list of them

You didn't understood about what i meaned.

I mean no voxels usage,

only use retopo primitives , and do extrudes and transforms to create your hard surface model.

Modeling that way there is many bugs and i doubt people are using retopo tools to do whole models in hard surface mode.

 

You loose too much time retopo hard surface models

While beeing able to model quickly in hard surface mode and voxelize it to add sculpt details is the faster way as you don't need to retopo.

 

Anyway, i don't think 3D coat will get some hard surface modeling room for example, there is Blender and Zbrush if you wish to mix scultping and traditional hard surface modeling.

 

I don't know what is the plan about next major updates ?

- animation 

- better decimation tool 

- better memory usage 

- tiled sculpting

- hard surface modeling

- fast 4K and 8K textures painting

At some point 3D coat should get a new room feature or some major functionality.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 4/13/2018 at 4:21 PM, Ratchet said:

You didn't understood about what i meaned.

I mean no voxels usage,

only use retopo primitives , and do extrudes and transforms to create your hard surface model.

Modeling that way there is many bugs and i doubt people are using retopo tools to do whole models in hard surface mode.

 

You loose too much time retopo hard surface models

While beeing able to model quickly in hard surface mode and voxelize it to add sculpt details is the faster way as you don't need to retopo.

 

Anyway, i don't think 3D coat will get some hard surface modeling room for example, there is Blender and Zbrush if you wish to mix scultping and traditional hard surface modeling.

Did you watch any of the videos I posted? Especially the one where I showed the "bugs" you referred to, where not happening....at least not on my end (Windows OS, 4.8.15), and I showed where IT WAS/IS NOT SLOW NOR CUMBERSOME TO EXTRUDE AND BEVEL ON THE FLY.

Here is another video covering the subject, that may be of some benefit, but not if you don't watch them.

 

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Well actually it is kind of cumbersome to extrude, at least for me (although even if 3d coat doesn't change a thing I've been learning a lot on this thread).  If I want to extrude something I have to choose the select tool, choose the faces I want to extrude, hit the extrude tool to open up the tool window, use the gizmo to extrude the faces and then if I want to extrude something else I have to hit escape to deselect, but that will actually only exit the tool so you have to hit escape again to deselect the faces, then go through the whole process again with the added step of hitting the "Commit extrusion" button on the extrusion tool panel (I'm not sure of the purpose of this button, but I assume its requirement serves a very useful function).  Where zmodeler has a lot of its strength is that it will snap and weld and remove faces for you all without you having to do a thing or even think about it (for instance if you extrude one face a long way, put a loop half way up and then extrude a neighboring face up to that loop, there won't be and doubles).  Less steps, more intuitive (which is not the case for a ton of the rest of zbrush).

For sending the mesh to the sculpt room it is also not exactly straight forward.  Without that video I would've been hunting for that menu item forever, because I would've a) assumed it would be in the retopo room (ie send selected mesh to sculpt room) and b_) assumed it would be something I could access through right clicking on the item in the vox tree or retopo objects list.  Indeed both rooms should probably have the menu option, so you could conceivably do a bunch of separate mesh modeling in the retopo room and send them over one by one for later sculpting without actually having to switch rooms every time.  Actually, moving the things through the various rooms is often the most confusing aspect of 3d coat.

In other words it's usually not functionality 3D Coat lacks, or Zbrush wouldn't have kept on copying features, it's the organization and usability of the tools already there.

Edit:  I should also note that I didn't even know of the existence of a 3d Coat Training Channel as opposed to the 3d Coat Channel.

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11 hours ago, Falconius said:

Well actually it is kind of cumbersome to extrude, at least for me (although even if 3d coat doesn't change a thing I've been learning a lot on this thread).  If I want to extrude something I have to choose the select tool, choose the faces I want to extrude, hit the extrude tool to open up the tool window, use the gizmo to extrude the faces and then if I want to extrude something else I have to hit escape to deselect, but that will actually only exit the tool so you have to hit escape again to deselect the faces, then go through the whole process again with the added step of hitting the "Commit extrusion" button on the extrusion tool panel (I'm not sure of the purpose of this button, but I assume its requirement serves a very useful function).  Where zmodeler has a lot of its strength is that it will snap and weld and remove faces for you all without you having to do a thing or even think about it (for instance if you extrude one face a long way, put a loop half way up and then extrude a neighboring face up to that loop, there won't be and doubles).  Less steps, more intuitive (which is not the case for a ton of the rest of zbrush).

For sending the mesh to the sculpt room it is also not exactly straight forward.  Without that video I would've been hunting for that menu item forever, because I would've a) assumed it would be in the retopo room (ie send selected mesh to sculpt room) and b_) assumed it would be something I could access through right clicking on the item in the vox tree or retopo objects list.  Indeed both rooms should probably have the menu option, so you could conceivably do a bunch of separate mesh modeling in the retopo room and send them over one by one for later sculpting without actually having to switch rooms every time.  Actually, moving the things through the various rooms is often the most confusing aspect of 3d coat.

In other words it's usually not functionality 3D Coat lacks, or Zbrush wouldn't have kept on copying features, it's the organization and usability of the tools already there.

Edit:  I should also note that I didn't even know of the existence of a 3d Coat Training Channel as opposed to the 3d Coat Channel.

I don't know about that. The "cumbersome" claim seems overstated. Let's review what is needed to perform EXTRUDE operations in regular 3D applications.

1) SELECT what sub-object mode you want to work in (Polys, edges and verts)

2) Select the sub-objects

3) Select the tool you want use OR

4) Select what type of TRANSFORM (Move, Rotate, Scale) operation you want....each time you want to perform a different transform operation.

5) When Beveling/extruding, one typically either has to click a button to create a new extrusion or bevel

6) When you want to Bevel or Extrude some different selections, you have to drop the current selection and make a new one

 

That is quite a lot of clicking or hotkeys to hit, just to perform a relatively simple operation. I keep saying TO CREATE A NEW EXTRUSION, JUST HIT THE ENTER KEY.

This is not cumbersome. I had to bang the table for a long time to get Andrew to add this functionality, including the option to lock the Gizmo orientation to local space. I also got Andrew to add the ability to quickly move the Pivot Point/ Action Center, but holding down the SHIFT. With the Transform Tool, there is no need to hit a hotkey for MOVE, another for SCALE, and another for ROTATE. You can assign your preferred hotkeys to the Sub-Objects, Transform tool, Expand/Contract (selection).

There are a lot of nifty Poly-Modeling tools, intended to speed tasks like these, up. Is it as quick to do in some areas as ZModeler? Perhaps not, but not having a gizmo to extrude means giving up the precision of a gizmo...ie, rotating, scaling or moving a very specific amount, and performing more than just extrusions with the same tool. Remember, you can move along an axis by grabbing the stem of the gizmo handles. You can move or rotate it in World space or screen space. You can (again) change the Pivot point on the fly, by holding the SHIFT key. You can Expand or Contract the selection with the + or - key on the NUM pad.....ALL WHILE THE TRANSFORM TOOL IS ACTIVE!

When you are in SELECT Mode, think of it as Sub-Object or Component mode. You are just telling 3D Coat that you want to do some mesh edits/poly-modeling operations. Andrew never gets enough credit, Yes, there are some areas that could be improved, but to call all the functionality that he added, cumbersome and inefficient is wrong, IMO. As for sending meshes to the Sculpt workspace, you could do something similar, for a long time. Go to the Sculpt workspace, hit the hotkey for IMPORT tool, (assign a hotkey first) hit a hotkey for the button FROM RETOPO, and in a matter of two hotkey presses, have a copy in the Sculpt workspace.

There isn't so much a lack of tools. It's largely a matter of taking the time to learn and use the tools. If a person goes through all the Quick Start videos for the Retopo Workspace, they'd have a much different view of what 3D Coat is capable of.

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In my opinion, 3D-Coat has developed the Retopo Room for performing retopology and over time, features have been enhanced for you to model similarly to a 3d application such as Blender, 3DS Max, Maya, and so on.
If you start making use of hotkey keys, surely your speeds of accomplishing your goals will increase.
The 3D-Coat Retopo Room tool system is completely different from the system used by ZBrush with ZModeler.
Some people love the 3D-Coat tool modeling process and others love the ZBrush ZModeler system process!

I understand what people are saying about the ZModeler features that are great!
I can say that there are things that are better to be done in ZModeler and others that are better to be done in Retopo Room.
I believe that if you have full knowledge of the tools of a program you will have a quality and fast work.

No program is perfect and we know that 3D-Coat is not just an expert program in one area. We are talking about a program that has several areas in a single program and that the degree of difficulty to maintain and implement functionalities is extremely difficult and I am not giving excuses to the developers of 3D-Coat.

We all have to have patience and understand that it is not overnight that a functionality will be made or changed.
I know that in the next versions of 3D-Coat, improvements will happen in all rooms of 3D-Coat.

I think we should suggest the features of the tool. Literally help develop the features: How, why, when. All of us together giving ideas and maturing tools (by making a list of the positives and negatives points.) And not simply asking to do ZModeler on 3D-Coat.
For example, if you would like to add and / or change the way a 3D-Coat tool works, please, introduce us so that it can reach the ears of Andrews and its developers!

I've been waiting for years for the implementation of Sculpt Rooms on 3D-Coat and incredible as it may seem, I do not want to have ZBrush's Sculpt Layers but rather the Paint Layers on the Sculpt Room. I believe the Paint Layers system with all those features that already exist in 3d-Coat and some other features would be perfect and even better than Zbrush!

For this, I am preparing a video where I will demonstrate a suggestion of the layout of Sculpt Layers, how it would work, explain all the features and what would happen to our projects if we artists had this system in our hands within 3D-Coat.
I know it will not be a perfect video (in fact, I've never made a video before), but I'd like to help everyone have that functionality by trying to get that video to Andrews and everyone.

In case, you do not want to make videos or do not have the time for this, I suggested that you document with image montages and make your ideas reach everyone, especially Andrew, so that together we can improve even more what is already good in 3D-Coat.

Please, I beg you not to misunderstand me about everything I said!

If not ask too much ...
What do you think of making this post a kind of documentation of ideas?
Put the features and list its characteristics (show images with image montages. It does not have to be a work of art, but in an organized way for all of us, what you really want from this tool.).
Let's get all our suggestions to Andrews, okay?

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10 hours ago, AbnRanger said:

I don't know about that. The "cumbersome" claim seems overstated. Let's review what is needed to perform EXTRUDE operations in regular 3D applications.

1) SELECT what sub-object mode you want to work in (Polys, edges and verts)

2) Select the sub-objects

3) Select the tool you want use OR

4) Select what type of TRANSFORM (Move, Rotate, Scale) operation you want....each time you want to perform a different transform operation.

5) When Beveling/extruding, one typically either has to click a button to create a new extrusion or bevel

6) When you want to Bevel or Extrude some different selections, you have to drop the current selection and make a new one

 

That is quite a lot of clicking or hotkeys to hit, just to perform a relatively simple operation. I keep saying TO CREATE A NEW EXTRUSION, JUST HIT THE ENTER KEY.

This is not cumbersome. I had to bang the table for a long time to get Andrew to add this functionality, including the option to lock the Gizmo orientation to local space. I also got Andrew to add the ability to quickly move the Pivot Point/ Action Center, but holding down the SHIFT. With the Transform Tool, there is no need to hit a hotkey for MOVE, another for SCALE, and another for ROTATE. You can assign your preferred hotkeys to the Sub-Objects, Transform tool, Expand/Contract (selection).

There are a lot of nifty Poly-Modeling tools, intended to speed tasks like these, up. Is it as quick to do in some areas as ZModeler? Perhaps not, but not having a gizmo to extrude means giving up the precision of a gizmo...ie, rotating, scaling or moving a very specific amount, and performing more than just extrusions with the same tool. Remember, you can move along an axis by grabbing the stem of the gizmo handles. You can move or rotate it in World space or screen space. You can (again) change the Pivot point on the fly, by holding the SHIFT key. You can Expand or Contract the selection with the + or - key on the NUM pad.....ALL WHILE THE TRANSFORM TOOL IS ACTIVE!

When you are in SELECT Mode, think of it as Sub-Object or Component mode. You are just telling 3D Coat that you want to do some mesh edits/poly-modeling operations. Andrew never gets enough credit, Yes, there are some areas that could be improved, but to call all the functionality that he added, cumbersome and inefficient is wrong, IMO. As for sending meshes to the Sculpt workspace, you could do something similar, for a long time. Go to the Sculpt workspace, hit the hotkey for IMPORT tool, (assign a hotkey first) hit a hotkey for the button FROM RETOPO, and in a matter of two hotkey presses, have a copy in the Sculpt workspace.

There isn't so much a lack of tools. It's largely a matter of taking the time to learn and use the tools. If a person goes through all the Quick Start videos for the Retopo Workspace, they'd have a much different view of what 3D Coat is capable of.

There is obviously a difference when you've grown with the program as you have, you've been intimately familiar with 3D Coat for years, so much so that Andrew has added functionality you pushed for.  New users simply haven't got that experience.  If one wants to sculpt or model, a new user isn't going to think about going to the retopo room necessarily.  They are in essences going to spend most of their time in the sculpt room (like for instance myself).  So when someone says, "I see this or that functionality in Zbrush, and I don't see it in 3D Coat," even if it's there, that should raise the question of "Why don't they see it?"  One reason could simply be PR, Zbrush has a lot of of PR, a lot, 3D Coat practically none.  The other reasons could be organization and implementation of the tools, another could be the intuitiveness of the way things work, and yet another could be the way the learning material is organized or labeled.  Don't get me wrong, I tried Zbrush and 3D Coat on trail periods before I chose and bought 3D Coat ( about a year ago).  I bought 3D Coat because of the much better price, and because it seemed just as functional as 4R7 if not more in some areas (retopo, remesh, painting).  I really really like 3D Coat, a lot, I think it is overall a better program.  I am now trying Zbrush 2018, and frankly I don't like it (other than these tools I've mentioned I find it opaque and painful to achieve even simple things that are plainly easy in 3D Coat), I'm quite likely to return it, all I'm doing is saying the positive things that I see in it.  There is no reason to get upset at this, or indeed of peoples ignorance, mine included, of features 3D Coat has.

And as I said I am learning a lot on this thread, including to hit enter to commit an extrusion. ;) Perhaps one solution to the Zbrush problem could simply be a thread, or a series of videos, going over comparable functionality between Zbrush and 3D coat and how to accomplish the same things in 3D Coat.

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4 hours ago, Falconius said:

There is obviously a difference when you've grown with the program as you have, you've been intimately familiar with 3D Coat for years, so much so that Andrew has added functionality you pushed for.  New users simply haven't got that experience.  If one wants to sculpt or model, a new user isn't going to think about going to the retopo room necessarily.  They are in essences going to spend most of their time in the sculpt room (like for instance myself).  So when someone says, "I see this or that functionality in Zbrush, and I don't see it in 3D Coat," even if it's there, that should raise the question of "Why don't they see it?"  One reason could simply be PR, Zbrush has a lot of of PR, a lot, 3D Coat practically none.  The other reasons could be organization and implementation of the tools, another could be the intuitiveness of the way things work, and yet another could be the way the learning material is organized or labeled.  Don't get me wrong, I tried Zbrush and 3D Coat on trail periods before I chose and bought 3D Coat ( about a year ago).  I bought 3D Coat because of the much better price, and because it seemed just as functional as 4R7 if not more in some areas (retopo, remesh, painting).  I really really like 3D Coat, a lot, I think it is overall a better program.  I am now trying Zbrush 2018, and frankly I don't like it (other than these tools I've mentioned I find it opaque and painful to achieve even simple things that are plainly easy in 3D Coat), I'm quite likely to return it, all I'm doing is saying the positive things that I see in it.  There is no reason to get upset at this, or indeed of peoples ignorance, mine included, of features 3D Coat has.

And as I said I am learning a lot on this thread, including to hit enter to commit an extrusion. ;) Perhaps one solution to the Zbrush problem could simply be a thread, or a series of videos, going over comparable functionality between Zbrush and 3D coat and how to accomplish the same things in 3D Coat.

It gets a bit frustrating to continue to hear "It's cumbersome to Extrude" in the Retopo Workspace....and "I have to hit the Commit Extrusion button every time." No, you don't. Use your hotkeys and watch the videos I posted. I didn't add them into previous posts for nothing. I did so to help show what can be done and to dispel some misconceptions.

I agree with what others have said, here, in that it is good to have a competent set of Polymodeling tools in 3D Coat, so that much of the task can be done in one app, but it's probably best to use 3D Coat in concert with the Modeling toolsets in one's host 3D app. IMO, more attention should go to bringing Sculpting very close to ZB's level (they set the bar very high years ago), and continue to improve the Paint Workspace.

I think Andrew will try to do that and add some more sizzle to the Retopo tools (Sketch Retopo tool functionality?), for V5. That is a lot to chew on, even for him. When he is working in the Retopo workspace, that would be a good time to make tool suggestions, but right now, I think he is trying to finish the new Curves tool (replacement of the current legacy Curves tool) and get started on Sculpt layers.

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...Oh, and to address a point raised earlier. Pixologic doesn't do comparative tool videos between ZB and 3DC, so I don't think it's realistic to expect Pilgway to do likewise. Maybe some 3rd party (ZB & 3DC expert) could, but that is up to them. As for PR, Pixologic already carved out their niche in the industry, before 3D Coat came along, just over a decade ago. They were already huge and they have a budget to generate a lot of PR. Pilgway is still relatively small (but growing) and even though it's used in some of the biggest studios in the world (Disney, Blue Sky, ILM, Blizzard, etc.), they typically don't share their content with Pilgway, using legal concerns as their main reason why. 

Once Andrew gets Sculpt Layers in 3D Coat, you may see more and more sculpt sessions appear online. That has often been the main obstacle. If he does it well, we will probably see a big change. Before V4 was released, almost no one was modeling in 3D Coat. Once FFD lattices and the Pose tool was improved to include them, that changed quickly. Adding Sculpt layers will probably have a similar effect.

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