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3DCoat 4.8 BETA testing thread


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1 hour ago, AbnRanger said:

1) If there is a low-poly mesh to "preserve vertex order and leave all quads," that is what the Retopo room + Conform Retopo Mesh is there for.

The whole point of a triangulated mesh is to accommodate the conversion between voxels and surface mode, and of course integrate LiveClay. Yes, I know you are fully aware of this, and that is why I am puzzled to hear you make the same argument a ZBrush user (new to 3DCoat) would typically make.

The fact that even ZBrush is also triangulating their meshes, now, with Sculptris mode, illustrates that this objection has little merit. Yes, you can reproject Sculptris Pro detail back onto the original quad mesh (not in every case, though) or get quads again by using Dynamesh, but these are still countermeasures...the same as "Conform Retopo Mesh" is. I fail to see why there is so much insistence on quads, when it doesn't afford any tangible benefit (that I can tell) over tri's, when sculpting. My guess is that people are just used to working with quads and thus working with all tris is a bit foreign to them. That doesn't mean quads are any better. In fact, in the earliest stages of a sculpt, they kind of look like garbage as you block out your forms.

2) Again, UV's don't matter on the high poly sculpt. They matter on the low-poly retopo or baking target mesh. Importing the base model into the Retopo room (to conform to the sculpt) and Sculpt room, solves this issue.

3) You and I both know that Proxy Meshes are a different approach to the same task. Again, it doesn't need to preserve topology. Does Dynamesh preserve topology? No, it doesn't. It trashes it. Yes, again, you can use countermeasures to get the detail back onto the original mesh, but if ZBrush is allowed to use countermeasures to solve the same issue, why isn't 3DCoat allowed to?

We both know that what you are asking is for a total re-write of the Sculpt Workspace, and for what....a few minimal benefits, if any? I have a license of ZBrush, and I use it from time to time, so I'm not totally one-sided on this. I just don't see the advantages of trying to force all quads on Andrew. 3DCoat is just a different animal, and it has a different way of doing the same task.

If you want to bake all your detail down to the original low poly quad mesh, you have a means to do that.

If you want that original to conform to the sculpting changes, you have a means to do that.

If you want to step down to lower levels of subdivision, you have a means to do that.

If you want to preserve UV's, you have a means to do that.

3DCoat does NOT need to do everything the ZBrush way in order to be "used in the Industry." The lack of Sculpt Layers and a Noise Generator (with a library of procedural noises) were/are the major hurdles to overcome, IMHO...not go all quads.

lol no I never talked about going" all quads" I Im talking about importing a mesh to sculpt and preserve its original topology.

For animation where you've decided you wanted tris and where you wanted quads is  important .

By "used in the industry" I mean to sculpt layers to import  blendshapes and morphs in your animation software on your original rig.....you need to preserve vertex order to do that.

Also conforming when changes are big IS a nightmare. (ex:poses with changed finger positions).

As I first said the artistic/designing aspect of what sculpt layers are used for is very solid :). 

 

 

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1 hour ago, AbnRanger said:

 

We both know that what you are asking is for a total re-write of the Sculpt Workspace, and for what....a few minimal benefits, if any? 

no I don't know that ahaha...I thought it was just some changes to the Merge tool  import features and  export  from file menu. But you're right it probably implies bigger changes under the hood.

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50 minutes ago, artman said:

lol no I never talked about going" all quads" I Im talking about importing a mesh to sculpt and preserve its original topology.

For animation where you've decided you wanted tris and where you wanted quads is  important .

By "used in the industry" I mean to sculpt layers to import  blendshapes and morphs in your animation software on your original rig.....you need to preserve vertex order to do that.

Also conforming when changes are big IS a nightmare. (ex:poses with changed finger positions).

As I first said the artistic/designing aspect of what sculpt layers are used for is very solid :). 

 

 

With Voxels and Dynamic Tessellation, there is no way to preserve original topology. Same thing applies in ZB with Dynamesh and Sculptris Pro. They completely trash the original topology. You have to use countermeasures, as I mentioned (reproject or ZRemesher), in those cases. With that in mind, I still don't see such a huge difference here. Conform Retopo Mesh works pretty well everytime I've ever used it, so no it's not a nightmare...not in my experience. I've even recorded several examples in tutorials showing it in use and they weren't just slight changes. It worked each time, just as one would expect it to. Here is another example of it in practice. No nightmare here.

As for creating Blendshapes, one can already do that, using the very same method I mentioned, or use Microvertex mode and sculpt different targets (on different Paint Layers) of the same base mesh, in the Tweak room. To export the different Morph Targets/Blendshapes, just hide the layers of the targets you don't yet want to export > Export. Do the same for the other targets. For example, if you have a neutral facial target, a smile, a frown, a puzzled expression, etc., and wanted to export the Smile Morph Target first, hide all the other layers > export. Then hide that layer and unhide the frown > export....rinse and repeat as necessary.

It's funny how people keep insisting that 3DCoat should follow the ZBrush way, while release after release, Pixologic seems to be following the 3DCoat way (ZRemesher, Dynamesh, new Transform Gizmos, mesh replicators along a Spline, improved booleans and modeling tools, and now LiveClay/Sculptris Pro). Imagine that. I'm all for improvements, but not for ultra-radical changes for ultra-minimal gain...just to be more like ZBrush. 

Again, 3DCoat has tools for the same tasks. They may use a different approach, and obviously, in some cases, ZB has better tools. But then again, 3DCoat also has better tools in some cases. The biggest advantage it has, IMO, is not just Voxels (for blocking out rough forms without having to worry about stretching), but 3dconnexion support.

When I sculpt in ZB, I feel like I'm restricted to an arcane way of working, by CONSTANTLY, hundreds of times per day, I have to stop > navigate > move my cursor back into position...over and over and over. Why in the world does nobody ever mention that? Plus, I have over 30 customizable buttons on the device that let me access the most frequently used hotkeys/tools, without ever looking down at the device or keyboard. When using ZBrush, I'm CONSTANTLY having to peek down at the keyboard. In 3DCoat, about the only time I have to use the keyboard is to type in the name of a layer or for numeric input.

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...The other point I wanted to make is, with such large structural changes, it would take considerable development time away from fulfillment of other longstanding requests, such as revamped layer masking in the Paint Workspace, which would also benefit Sculpt Layers, and Retopo tools/Modeling improvements. 3DCoat is just a different bird, just like ZB is, despite many users begging Pixologic over the years, to redo their alien UI; and they won't have 3dconnexion support anytime soon either, because it's so different.

Maybe Andrew can add CONFORM RETOPO MESH support for brushes, not just large scale tools like POSE, TRANSFORM, and MOVE. I'd be in favor of that, since REMOVE STRETCHING performs a secondary calculation at the end of each brushstroke, too. I think that would be the best solution.

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Remember that not only the tools are important, so is an easy navigation.

The UI its filled with micromanaging panels and wasted screen space. If Andrew is going to keep adding functionality and features to 3D Coat, refining the Interface and freeing up some space will be a huge benefit.

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34 minutes ago, Carlosan said:

Remember that not only the tools are important, so is an easy navigation.

The UI its filled with micromanaging panels and wasted screen space. If Andrew is going to keep adding functionality and features to 3D Coat, refining the Interface and freeing up some space will be a huge benefit.

That's true to some extent, but I cannot think of any consolidating efforts that would make a drastic improvement, at this point. I mean I expected SCULPT layers to be integrated into the VoxTree layer panel, but I can see why it is implemented in the LAYERS panel, instead. So, it can be used in the Paint Workspace as well, and it was already a part of the app, just not available to SCULPT Objects. 

I've gotten to where I use hotkeys to bring up panels like PRESETS and IMAGE PICKER/REFERENCE, into the viewport, right where my cursor is.

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3 hours ago, Carlosan said:

Remember that not only the tools are important, so is an easy navigation.

The UI its filled with micromanaging panels and wasted screen space. If Andrew is going to keep adding functionality and features to 3D Coat, refining the Interface and freeing up some space will be a huge benefit.

 

Simple things like being able to undock panels (true multi monitor support) and possibly being able to label our layers in the paint room via a color (similar to how photoshop can) would go a long way for me with the UI. I don't know if the new sculpt layer feature of grouping layers/putting them folders works for paint room but would be super cool if they could too. I currently have 3D Coat stretched across 2 monitors and it works ok but I then can't put any extra panels on my 3rd monitor to the far left which is unfortunate wasted space. I'd pay for the program again just for a multi-monitor update that is how bad I want it lol

With all that said 3D Coat is still amazing and I'm always loving the beta builds. I already chose it over Substance painter for the simple fact 3D Coat has become my one stop shop for almost all of my workflow minus the modeling phase now. UI in Substance painter since their last big update is very clean though. I don't feel too lost in 3D Coat since I know what tools I want and where they are but I can't speak for new users which I could understand getting lost so much easier. I'd always be for a 3D Coat UI refresh/reshuffle for sure.

Edited by Mystical
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Sculpt Layers from my very brief testing is really cool.  I'm not a big zbrush user like some of you, but I can see how I can achieve detailed sculpts in 3D Coat now.

Is it just me or is sculpting on a high poly mesh using a sculpt layers in the paint room way faster than it would be in surface mode?  Also, the sculpting in the paint room using depth has a really good feel to it in terms of precision and stroke quality.  I haven't tested that much, but does anyone else feel the same way?

What happens to Sculpt layers when I resample/or subdivide my mesh?  Is it applied?  Will sculpt layers eventually exist specifically for each object in the voxtree?  Also it seems that sculpt layers are applied when switching from surface mode to voxel mode.  

I know it's very early, but it feels great and it opens up whole new avenues for working.   Very excited to test further.

 

Good work Andrew!

 

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I was testing that. Layers work as global attribute over any Surface model created on Voxeltree.

Suppose you have on VoxTree model 1 and 2

And on LayerTree layer 1 and 2

Can layersculpt on layer 1 over models 1 and 2. Or on Layer1 for model1 and on layer2 for model2. Its your choice.

Still dont know what is better. Global Layer attribute or local Layer by model. *Local will be to sync every layer hierarchy created, to every specific model individually.

 

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Local gives more precision per object,  global gives more freedom to the user to sculpt freely over multiple pieces.  BUT for blendshapes it needs to be local per object. 

Edited by Michaelgdrs
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Global sculpt layers is very interesting.  I didn't even consider that it could apply to multiple sculpt objects.  To be honest I can't say which way would be better.  Global provides a lot more flexibility, but harder to keep track of what's what.

Maybe if sculpt layers are global, then we could achieve something more localized with the addition of 3b files embedded into the voxtree that we can 'dive' into and while inside it, all sculpt layer changes will be local to that 3b file.  Please forgive the next portion, it's just some ideas that I've had before that are starting to come into clearer focus with the addition of sculpt layers.

So here is what I was thinking...

I think it would be great to have the photoshop smart object layers equivalent in the voxtree... .3b files embedded into the voxtree that live alongside the voxel and sculpt objects.  They wouldn't be directly editable like vox/surface objects.  Since they are 3b's they could show objects in their sculpt state (vox/surface mode), retopo state or paint object state.  And they could 'dived' into like a sub-object in illustrator and indicated via UI something like this --  main scene > 3b object 1    in order to keep track of what level you are at in the project.

Further, in addition to Smart Object Layers, I would also propose a Quad mode.

So essentially, 4 Voxtree layer styles in the sculpt room and render room.

Voxel mode - for freeform sculpting/booleans 

Surface mode - for liveclay/remove stretching/booleans

Quad mode (with subdivision stepping and supported sculpting tools) - compatible with the models tab and works with merge tool and curves for placement - even if this mode isn't automatically generated such as surface mode/voxel mode - this mode could support more basic sculpting tools...draw, pinch, inflate, smooth, etc. along with some of the selection and retopo tools - Would also provide a non-destructive means of increasing/decreasing resolution without losing details...would ptex work here? If so, sculpts could be painted in paint room with SculptLayers and Smart Materials then baked later to UVd mesh.  Pin retopo mesh to sculpt is an interesting workaround, but it isn't very efficient (rendering/editing both retopo mesh and sculpt mesh at the same time) and not all the sculpt tools are supported.

Smart Object (not editable outside of transforms) - represents 3b objects - can be non destructively displayed as sculpt mesh/retopo mesh/paint object - compatible with the models tab and works with merge tool and curves for placement - can be destructively converted to quad mode/surface mode/voxel mode for editing (this would only be a destructive step in the the scene you are in.  The instanced .3b file saved to disk would be unaffected)

 

Doing this would open the way for powerful workflows for concept art which 3D Coat is already being used for a lot and also make 3D Coat more production friendly by allowing layout artists to arrange scenes and work on assets in place or referencing in 3b files that other people are working on asynchronously.  Ultimately, the whole scene could be exported non destructively to another application...be it a game engine or 3D animation tool with everything worked out and in place with no duplication of work required.

 

My 2cents...apologies for changing the discussion...just putting this out there for roadmap purposes in case any of these things that you've been thinking of addressing.

 

 

 

Edited by gbball
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Doing some more testing with Sculpt Layers and I'm seriously blown away.  I'm working on a 6m poly sculpt using depth/colour/gloss in the paint room along with an edge condition for more on Convex and it's working beautifully.  This is really incredible.

The fact that curvature maps and ambient occlusion are supported is really incredible.  This is so insane!

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You already have GLOBAL sculpting in the Paint room, and it's been this way from the beginning. If the user wants to confine it to just one object, they can Ghost other volumes, or just name the file accordingly. This is something every user needs to get into the habit of, anyway. I asked Andrew if he could add some kind of identifier on the layers as to whether it was for Vertex Paint or not. Maybe an icon of some sort, and once a user started sculpting or painting on a SCULPT object, it would get that designation....cause after a bake, you will have both sculpt objects and paint objects in the same scene. And sometimes you will have paint layers that belong to the high poly sculpt object.

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Yeah,

 

I suppose it makes sense since vertex painting already worked that way.  As it is...and I know it's very early still, but I think there should be some way to make it local or like you suggest, some way of clarifying to the user what the layer in the paint room is being applied to.

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The new sculpt layers have a lot of potential! Right out of the gate they seem pretty stable, too. I am really enjoying being able to use the Depth Opacity to control how much of the layer adds to the depth. I don't know if it's been mentioned previously in this thread, but it would be cool to be able to change the depth blend mode and have it affect the sculpt layers, too. :)

I'd like to also add my voice to what Artman is saying about retaining the original UVs and vertex order of the original imported mesh in surface sculpt. These two things are very, very important. I guess the flipside is you can also project attributes in another tool, but it doesn't always work the way you expect in every case. So having it just remember this data from the get go would be most welcome.

 

Thanks Andrew for making sculpt layers! It is very cool. :)

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I just made a separate thread for this , when I meant to have posted it here...apologies..

Hi. 

Just trying sculpt layers. Perfect timing for a job Im doing at the moment. Its seems to work great for what I want but when I use the sliders for depth etc  all the menus and tabs flicker on and off as I slide. They stop when I have finished  so no deal breaker really and I know its a first beta . Just wondering why.

Im probably one driver behind on my GPU  gtx1050...win 7

 I tried it last week, it did it then also. And last time  it changed my default shader and turned off my grid. But my shader and grid seem ok this time.

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14 hours ago, Javis said:

Yeah this is happening a lot to me. I am sure it's a bug and hopefully Andrew knows about it. I'm on a dual Xeon, dual 1080 TI, 128GB DDR4, dual monitors (and Cintiq) and Win10.

 

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Hi thanks many up-date. Then one thing I currently can not solve about 4.8.20 (windows 10 and wacom tablet , with Tablet PC option)

I can not edit  pen plessure "taper" at all....  So I reported  it as bug, but I can not confirm, if it only happen about my PC. 

So is there user who have same problem about 4.8.20 (GL64 and DX64) pen taper option? 

Or  I miss some option, which may lock pen taper edit?  I checked almost all option setting ,but I am not user who know well each 3d coat setting.

As for me, I can only add point, but other option not work at all. (can not change Enable Tapering, Can not change Modulate Tapering, and can not drag any point)

like this pic, all option seems locked for me.. (I can only add new point, but can not edit curve at all). 

pentaper.JPG

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11 hours ago, tokikake said:

Hi thanks many up-date. Then one thing I currently can not solve about 4.8.20 (windows 10 and wacom tablet , with Tablet PC option)

I can not edit  pen plessure "taper" at all....  So I reported  it as bug, but I can not confirm, if it only happen about my PC. 

So is there user who have same problem about 4.8.20 (GL64 and DX64) pen taper option? 

Or  I miss some option, which may lock pen taper edit?  I checked almost all option setting ,but I am not user who know well each 3d coat setting.

As for me, I can only add point, but other option not work at all. (can not change Enable Tapering, Can not change Modulate Tapering, and can not drag any point)

like this pic, all option seems locked for me.. (I can only add new point, but can not edit curve at all). 

pentaper.JPG

Try to close the app and restart or try TabletPC instead of WinTab. Microsoft mess things up with their latest Fall Creators Update (or whatever it's called), regarding touch devices

 

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Carlosan thanks you take time to test. I have not downloaded  the SL version. I may test  it because  I can not solve this problem.

Abnranger Yes I thought if it cause this problem. I arealdy saw those tutoriall.  then as I menitoned,, I test with both option (so I set it as  "Tablet PC" for the windows up-date problem.  unfortunately it not work for me. 

 

 

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Thanks,, I finally could use these Tapering option.  it seems UI  layer system problem of 3d coat window.

Because when I change 3d coat window size as maximum, I can edit (check on and off, edit curve etc) and can  check options.

but when I use default window (no maximum), I can not.  I sometimes see strange pane movements (it start slide to left then close all) for 3d coat UI, when i arrange each pane often.   but it usually stop, when I set window as maximum then tried same way. (I did not expect at all, but actually it worked for me)

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I think I've found a possible bug in 3d-coat 4.8.20 SL version.
When I try to drag an object from VoxTree to the Models palette, the 3d-coat generates a black image and a 1kb obj file non-existent.
Could anyone confirm if this error is happening?

image.png.f8b8b1da59ad9389ede9207d5f05beab.png

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It's working! The problem was that I was trying to drag the voxtree layer by the icon without first selecting the layer in voxtree.
If someone happens the same as me. First select the voxtree layer and then drag to the Models palette.

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On 8/10/2018 at 8:30 AM, Taros said:
0002369: Connect tool in retopo room does not work

http://3dcoat.com/mantis/view.php?id=2369

Connect doesn't work that way. It's not a "BRIDGE" tool. I've been asking for one for years, even asked Raul to first start with a simple bridge tool, rather than a fancy, jiggly thingy QuadPaint turned out to be.

 

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