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Andrew Shpagin

3DCoat 4.8 BETA testing thread

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Finally adding a new layer and using move tool, i can make shape key animation to export onto another app. Well done.

But still need to export FBX 7.4 ASCII. This exporter can export shape keys which can be imported as BlendShapes. The binary FBX 6.1 exporter does not appear to export shape keys.

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True , this is a MUST along with layer mirror / flip .

 

BUT ISN'T THE IMPLEMENTATION JUST AWESOME????

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5 hours ago, haikalle said:

I'm amazed how fast sculpt layers work. If this speed remains the same after this feature is done I would be very happy :)

What do you mean by "fast?" Brush speed in the Sculpt workspace, or using the sliders to adjust the Depth Level of a layer. Just curious what aspect you are referring to.

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2 hours ago, AbnRanger said:

What do you mean by "fast?" Brush speed in the Sculpt workspace, or using the sliders to adjust the Depth Level of a layer. Just curious what aspect you are referring to.

I mean using sliders to adjust the Depth level of layer. When I sculpt I want fast visual feedback when playing with ideas and this feature really gives it.

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Make possible to paint and sculpt at same time using PBR material depth/bump data = solved !!

\o/

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8 hours ago, AbnRanger said:

Here is a quick demo for anyone wanting to know how it works (in general).

 

I have no words to describe how happy I am to have sculpt layers on 3D-Coat! Many thanks Andrew!

I would like to know if it would be possible to apply clipping mask in sculpt layers? The same way we're used to doing in paint layers?
And which Paint Room tools can be used in Sculpt Layers?
Thank you very much and today is a remarkable day!
:)

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sculpt layers folder is working ?

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Is it possible to use new Joints tools in Retopo Room to kitbash a retopo mesh (or to use them like some kind of lowpoly modeling tools)? Of course, right now I can export from the Sculpt room to Retopo ("retopo via decimation" for example), but there is a lot of cleanup work after that.

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6 hours ago, Carlosan said:

sculpt layers folder is working ?

I just did a quick test on the folders or groups in sculpt layers and it looks like it's working.

I do not know if Clipping Mask works ... 

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1 hour ago, Rygaard said:

I just did a quick test on the folders or groups in sculpt layers and it looks like it's working.

I do not know if Clipping Mask works ... 

Andrew said it's still ongoing development, so there are still some features to be added, but it's usable enough now, in it's current state, to test and even utilize in some work.

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1 hour ago, AbnRanger said:

Andrew said it's still ongoing development, so there are still some features to be added, but it's usable enough now, in it's current state, to test and even utilize in some work. 

Fantastic!
It's true, it's just the beginning of development. Andrew was kind enough to give us this beta version of the sculpt layer. Once again, I thank Andrew very much for finally giving us this much-desired functionality. Of course, there will be many features and tools associated with Sculpt Layers and its enhancement. One step at a time!
Sculpt Layers will completely change the game, our work will greatly improve, allowing us to create where the sky is the limit! Everything has changed for the better!
I'm sure I'll use this beta in my work!
I think Clipping Mask (or masks for layers) is not currently applied to Sculpt layers, just for Paint layers.

If it were not going to be too much for you, but would Andrew be able to provide or list the tools that can be used in Sculpt Layers in this beta?

I quickly tested and so far the following tools work:
- Group Layers / Folders
- Erase Tool
- Slide Depth Opacity

1) I am not understanding about the Merge of layers.
Let's say you've finished working with the layers and you want to merge all layers into a single layer. How does Layer 0 and the other layers work in this sense of merge?

2) When you are in the Paint Room, and use the Depth (sculpting inside the Paint room) ... I mean you can also detail and sculpt inside the Paint room and return to Sculpt Room?

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1 hour ago, Rygaard said:

Fantastic!
It's true, it's just the beginning of development. Andrew was kind enough to give us this beta version of the sculpt layer. Once again, I thank Andrew very much for finally giving us this much-desired functionality. Of course, there will be many features and tools associated with Sculpt Layers and its enhancement. One step at a time!
Sculpt Layers will completely change the game, our work will greatly improve, allowing us to create where the sky is the limit! Everything has changed for the better!
I'm sure I'll use this beta in my work!
I think Clipping Mask (or masks for layers) is not currently applied to Sculpt layers, just for Paint layers.

If it were not going to be too much for you, but would Andrew be able to provide or list the tools that can be used in Sculpt Layers in this beta?

I quickly tested and so far the following tools work:
- Group Layers / Folders
- Erase Tool
- Slide Depth Opacity

1) I am not understanding about the Merge of layers.
Let's say you've finished working with the layers and you want to merge all layers into a single layer. How does Layer 0 and the other layers work in this sense of merge?

2) When you are in the Paint Room, and use the Depth (sculpting inside the Paint room) ... I mean you can also detail and sculpt inside the Paint room and return to Sculpt Room?

Eraser works on Sculpt Layers, so far: Yes. Depth Opacity slider works? Yes. Haven't yet checked for folders.

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Wow,it really works well !!!  :)The "artistic" aspect of it for sculpting is solid but the "pipeline" aspect of what sculpt layers are mostly used in the industry even in 2018 is not usable right now because

1) 3coat does not preserve vertex order and triangulate  the whole mesh on import in Surface mode

2)it destroy UVS

3)there is not way to go up and down subdivision levels (proxy mode changes topology we need basic up/down catmull subd)                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

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10 hours ago, artman said:

Wow,it really works well !!!  :)The "artistic" aspect of it for sculpting is solid but the "pipeline" aspect of what sculpt layers are mostly used in the industry even in 2018 is not usable right now because

1) 3coat does not preserve vertex order and triangulate  the whole mesh on import in Surface mode

2)it destroy UVS

3)there is not way to go up and down subdivision levels (proxy mode changes topology we need basic up/down catmull subd)                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

1) If there is a low-poly mesh to "preserve vertex order and leave all quads," that is what the Retopo room + Conform Retopo Mesh is there for.

The whole point of a triangulated mesh is to accommodate the conversion between voxels and surface mode, and of course integrate LiveClay. Yes, I know you are fully aware of this, and that is why I am puzzled to hear you make the same argument a ZBrush user (new to 3DCoat) would typically make.

The fact that even ZBrush is also triangulating their meshes, now, with Sculptris mode, illustrates that this objection has little merit. Yes, you can reproject Sculptris Pro detail back onto the original quad mesh (not in every case, though) or get quads again by using Dynamesh, but these are still countermeasures...the same as "Conform Retopo Mesh" is. I fail to see why there is so much insistence on quads, when it doesn't afford any tangible benefit (that I can tell) over tri's, when sculpting. My guess is that people are just used to working with quads and thus working with all tris is a bit foreign to them. That doesn't mean quads are any better. In fact, in the earliest stages of a sculpt, they kind of look like garbage as you block out your forms.

2) Again, UV's don't matter on the high poly sculpt. They matter on the low-poly retopo or baking target mesh. Importing the base model into the Retopo room (to conform to the sculpt) and Sculpt room, solves this issue.

3) You and I both know that Proxy Meshes are a different approach to the same task. Again, it doesn't need to preserve topology. Does Dynamesh preserve topology? No, it doesn't. It trashes it. Yes, again, you can use countermeasures to get the detail back onto the original mesh, but if ZBrush is allowed to use countermeasures to solve the same issue, why isn't 3DCoat allowed to?

We both know that what you are asking is for a total re-write of the Sculpt Workspace, and for what....a few minimal benefits, if any? I have a license of ZBrush, and I use it from time to time, so I'm not totally one-sided on this. I just don't see the advantages of trying to force all quads on Andrew. 3DCoat is just a different animal, and it has a different way of doing the same task.

If you want to bake all your detail down to the original low poly quad mesh, you have a means to do that.

If you want that original to conform to the sculpting changes, you have a means to do that.

If you want to step down to lower levels of subdivision, you have a means to do that.

If you want to preserve UV's, you have a means to do that.

3DCoat does NOT need to do everything the ZBrush way in order to be "used in the Industry." The lack of Sculpt Layers and a Noise Generator (with a library of procedural noises) were/are the major hurdles to overcome, IMHO...not go all quads.

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1 hour ago, AbnRanger said:

1) If there is a low-poly mesh to "preserve vertex order and leave all quads," that is what the Retopo room + Conform Retopo Mesh is there for.

The whole point of a triangulated mesh is to accommodate the conversion between voxels and surface mode, and of course integrate LiveClay. Yes, I know you are fully aware of this, and that is why I am puzzled to hear you make the same argument a ZBrush user (new to 3DCoat) would typically make.

The fact that even ZBrush is also triangulating their meshes, now, with Sculptris mode, illustrates that this objection has little merit. Yes, you can reproject Sculptris Pro detail back onto the original quad mesh (not in every case, though) or get quads again by using Dynamesh, but these are still countermeasures...the same as "Conform Retopo Mesh" is. I fail to see why there is so much insistence on quads, when it doesn't afford any tangible benefit (that I can tell) over tri's, when sculpting. My guess is that people are just used to working with quads and thus working with all tris is a bit foreign to them. That doesn't mean quads are any better. In fact, in the earliest stages of a sculpt, they kind of look like garbage as you block out your forms.

2) Again, UV's don't matter on the high poly sculpt. They matter on the low-poly retopo or baking target mesh. Importing the base model into the Retopo room (to conform to the sculpt) and Sculpt room, solves this issue.

3) You and I both know that Proxy Meshes are a different approach to the same task. Again, it doesn't need to preserve topology. Does Dynamesh preserve topology? No, it doesn't. It trashes it. Yes, again, you can use countermeasures to get the detail back onto the original mesh, but if ZBrush is allowed to use countermeasures to solve the same issue, why isn't 3DCoat allowed to?

We both know that what you are asking is for a total re-write of the Sculpt Workspace, and for what....a few minimal benefits, if any? I have a license of ZBrush, and I use it from time to time, so I'm not totally one-sided on this. I just don't see the advantages of trying to force all quads on Andrew. 3DCoat is just a different animal, and it has a different way of doing the same task.

If you want to bake all your detail down to the original low poly quad mesh, you have a means to do that.

If you want that original to conform to the sculpting changes, you have a means to do that.

If you want to step down to lower levels of subdivision, you have a means to do that.

If you want to preserve UV's, you have a means to do that.

3DCoat does NOT need to do everything the ZBrush way in order to be "used in the Industry." The lack of Sculpt Layers and a Noise Generator (with a library of procedural noises) were/are the major hurdles to overcome, IMHO...not go all quads.

lol no I never talked about going" all quads" I Im talking about importing a mesh to sculpt and preserve its original topology.

For animation where you've decided you wanted tris and where you wanted quads is  important .

By "used in the industry" I mean to sculpt layers to import  blendshapes and morphs in your animation software on your original rig.....you need to preserve vertex order to do that.

Also conforming when changes are big IS a nightmare. (ex:poses with changed finger positions).

As I first said the artistic/designing aspect of what sculpt layers are used for is very solid :). 

 

 

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1 hour ago, AbnRanger said:

 

We both know that what you are asking is for a total re-write of the Sculpt Workspace, and for what....a few minimal benefits, if any? 

no I don't know that ahaha...I thought it was just some changes to the Merge tool  import features and  export  from file menu. But you're right it probably implies bigger changes under the hood.

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50 minutes ago, artman said:

lol no I never talked about going" all quads" I Im talking about importing a mesh to sculpt and preserve its original topology.

For animation where you've decided you wanted tris and where you wanted quads is  important .

By "used in the industry" I mean to sculpt layers to import  blendshapes and morphs in your animation software on your original rig.....you need to preserve vertex order to do that.

Also conforming when changes are big IS a nightmare. (ex:poses with changed finger positions).

As I first said the artistic/designing aspect of what sculpt layers are used for is very solid :). 

 

 

With Voxels and Dynamic Tessellation, there is no way to preserve original topology. Same thing applies in ZB with Dynamesh and Sculptris Pro. They completely trash the original topology. You have to use countermeasures, as I mentioned (reproject or ZRemesher), in those cases. With that in mind, I still don't see such a huge difference here. Conform Retopo Mesh works pretty well everytime I've ever used it, so no it's not a nightmare...not in my experience. I've even recorded several examples in tutorials showing it in use and they weren't just slight changes. It worked each time, just as one would expect it to. Here is another example of it in practice. No nightmare here.

As for creating Blendshapes, one can already do that, using the very same method I mentioned, or use Microvertex mode and sculpt different targets (on different Paint Layers) of the same base mesh, in the Tweak room. To export the different Morph Targets/Blendshapes, just hide the layers of the targets you don't yet want to export > Export. Do the same for the other targets. For example, if you have a neutral facial target, a smile, a frown, a puzzled expression, etc., and wanted to export the Smile Morph Target first, hide all the other layers > export. Then hide that layer and unhide the frown > export....rinse and repeat as necessary.

It's funny how people keep insisting that 3DCoat should follow the ZBrush way, while release after release, Pixologic seems to be following the 3DCoat way (ZRemesher, Dynamesh, new Transform Gizmos, mesh replicators along a Spline, improved booleans and modeling tools, and now LiveClay/Sculptris Pro). Imagine that. I'm all for improvements, but not for ultra-radical changes for ultra-minimal gain...just to be more like ZBrush. 

Again, 3DCoat has tools for the same tasks. They may use a different approach, and obviously, in some cases, ZB has better tools. But then again, 3DCoat also has better tools in some cases. The biggest advantage it has, IMO, is not just Voxels (for blocking out rough forms without having to worry about stretching), but 3dconnexion support.

When I sculpt in ZB, I feel like I'm restricted to an arcane way of working, by CONSTANTLY, hundreds of times per day, I have to stop > navigate > move my cursor back into position...over and over and over. Why in the world does nobody ever mention that? Plus, I have over 30 customizable buttons on the device that let me access the most frequently used hotkeys/tools, without ever looking down at the device or keyboard. When using ZBrush, I'm CONSTANTLY having to peek down at the keyboard. In 3DCoat, about the only time I have to use the keyboard is to type in the name of a layer or for numeric input.

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...The other point I wanted to make is, with such large structural changes, it would take considerable development time away from fulfillment of other longstanding requests, such as revamped layer masking in the Paint Workspace, which would also benefit Sculpt Layers, and Retopo tools/Modeling improvements. 3DCoat is just a different bird, just like ZB is, despite many users begging Pixologic over the years, to redo their alien UI; and they won't have 3dconnexion support anytime soon either, because it's so different.

Maybe Andrew can add CONFORM RETOPO MESH support for brushes, not just large scale tools like POSE, TRANSFORM, and MOVE. I'd be in favor of that, since REMOVE STRETCHING performs a secondary calculation at the end of each brushstroke, too. I think that would be the best solution.

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Remember that not only the tools are important, so is an easy navigation.

The UI its filled with micromanaging panels and wasted screen space. If Andrew is going to keep adding functionality and features to 3D Coat, refining the Interface and freeing up some space will be a huge benefit.

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34 minutes ago, Carlosan said:

Remember that not only the tools are important, so is an easy navigation.

The UI its filled with micromanaging panels and wasted screen space. If Andrew is going to keep adding functionality and features to 3D Coat, refining the Interface and freeing up some space will be a huge benefit.

That's true to some extent, but I cannot think of any consolidating efforts that would make a drastic improvement, at this point. I mean I expected SCULPT layers to be integrated into the VoxTree layer panel, but I can see why it is implemented in the LAYERS panel, instead. So, it can be used in the Paint Workspace as well, and it was already a part of the app, just not available to SCULPT Objects. 

I've gotten to where I use hotkeys to bring up panels like PRESETS and IMAGE PICKER/REFERENCE, into the viewport, right where my cursor is.

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3 hours ago, Carlosan said:

Remember that not only the tools are important, so is an easy navigation.

The UI its filled with micromanaging panels and wasted screen space. If Andrew is going to keep adding functionality and features to 3D Coat, refining the Interface and freeing up some space will be a huge benefit.

 

Simple things like being able to undock panels (true multi monitor support) and possibly being able to label our layers in the paint room via a color (similar to how photoshop can) would go a long way for me with the UI. I don't know if the new sculpt layer feature of grouping layers/putting them folders works for paint room but would be super cool if they could too. I currently have 3D Coat stretched across 2 monitors and it works ok but I then can't put any extra panels on my 3rd monitor to the far left which is unfortunate wasted space. I'd pay for the program again just for a multi-monitor update that is how bad I want it lol

With all that said 3D Coat is still amazing and I'm always loving the beta builds. I already chose it over Substance painter for the simple fact 3D Coat has become my one stop shop for almost all of my workflow minus the modeling phase now. UI in Substance painter since their last big update is very clean though. I don't feel too lost in 3D Coat since I know what tools I want and where they are but I can't speak for new users which I could understand getting lost so much easier. I'd always be for a 3D Coat UI refresh/reshuffle for sure.

Edited by Mystical
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For what it is worth, here is another example of "Conform Retopo Mesh" in use. This was actually more of an extreme case because of the many small parts that make up the model.

 

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Sculpt Layers from my very brief testing is really cool.  I'm not a big zbrush user like some of you, but I can see how I can achieve detailed sculpts in 3D Coat now.

Is it just me or is sculpting on a high poly mesh using a sculpt layers in the paint room way faster than it would be in surface mode?  Also, the sculpting in the paint room using depth has a really good feel to it in terms of precision and stroke quality.  I haven't tested that much, but does anyone else feel the same way?

What happens to Sculpt layers when I resample/or subdivide my mesh?  Is it applied?  Will sculpt layers eventually exist specifically for each object in the voxtree?  Also it seems that sculpt layers are applied when switching from surface mode to voxel mode.  

I know it's very early, but it feels great and it opens up whole new avenues for working.   Very excited to test further.

 

Good work Andrew!

 

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