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Andrew Shpagin

3DCoat 4.8 BETA testing thread

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Dev team working on it. Sorry any inconvenience.

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4.8.28

Bug regression reported, Thx for point up.

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7 hours ago, micro26 said:

I try the transform tool  and i cant find the rotation and scale numerically. Did that change?  Thanks 

 

It went away for a bit, now its back, try the latest beta. ( its in my bete .25)

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14 hours ago, micro26 said:

I try the transform tool  and i cant find the rotation and scale numerically. Did that change?  Thanks 

 

Andrew removed them a few months ago, thinking they were redundant, since you can LMB + SPACE bar on a widget to enter value numerically. But some of us here asked to have it put back. He did in the latest build, it seems.

By the way, can anyone with a relatively new Intel CPU do a quick painting test? Can you take a model with a 4k UV texture map bring up Windows Task Manager and see if it's using all cores. I've got an AMD Ryzen 2700X, which is a pretty beefy new CPU that beats the Intel 8700k in most non-gaming benchmarks. However, Andrew used INTEL TBB (THREAD BUILDING BLOCKS) for the Multi-threading code and in a test just yesterday, it was awfully slow painting in the head regions and only one thread ran close to peak. Total utilization of all cores was roughly 20%. That's terrible for such a common task in 3DCoat...that is supposed to be multi-threaded.

This was the case several years ago, but I thought AMD won a case against Intel for this very practice, of crippling AMD CPU's in apps....like 3DCoat...where their compilers were used. This is the problem of using proprietary compilers of Intel. They play dirty and have been sued relentlessly for it. 

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Almost new Intel CPU. 4K painting test using smart material and big size brush

 

CPUusage.jpg

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That's about what I thought. AMD CPU's are pretty much crippled in 3DCoat, wherever Intel TBB is used for multi-threading. Andrew really needs to do something about that.

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7 hours ago, AbnRanger said:

That's about what I thought. AMD CPU's are pretty much crippled in 3DCoat, wherever Intel TBB is used for multi-threading. Andrew really needs to do something about that.

I did my tests too with AMD and results are quite bad, but I remember seeing here in the forum that Andrew's one of the v5 features is GPU painting so I hope it will change this.

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1 minute ago, haikalle said:

I did my tests too with AMD and results are quite bad, but I remember seeing here in the forum that Andrew's one of the v5 features is GPU painting so I hope it will change this.

True, but that also means performance will still be crippled on AMD CPU's in the rest of the app, including sculpting where multi-threaded performance is critical. He really needs to change this, as there are many non-intel compilers available. Him choosing Intel's compilers means users with AMD CPU's, like myself, are getting hosed (in terms of performance). This severely limits one's purchasing options when building a new system or upgrading one's CPU. Even a new Threadripper cannot benefit from all the extra cores and threads..because Andrew chose a compiler from a company that plays dirty tricks.

 

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Hm, what the difference between 3D4Shoes and 3D-Coat? =) 

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After some further testing on an older Intel i7 970, it seems the behavior is roughly the same as on the AMD CPU. I used the same model and same texture size (4k, not great on 2k, either). Unless you keep your brush confined to a small to medium size, performance around pixel dense areas like the face, is just terrible. It's not something you would expect in a professional texture painting application.

For this reason, I really do hope a GPU brush engine is under current development and not shelved. 3DCoat really needs to step up it's game in the Paint Room. The Sliders for DEPTH, COLOR, GLOSS in the layer panel are so sluggish they are literally, not figuratively, useless. This has been an issue for 3DCoat from the beginning.

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1 hour ago, artofcharly said:

Hm, what the difference between 3D4Shoes and 3D-Coat? =) 

3D4Shoes is a branch from 3D-Coat build specially for a client needs.

But the link was removed... where do you found it ?

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Still there isnt any SL build for version V4_8-28A... sorry :blush:

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It seems to me that 4.8.28A is the same as 4.8.23 with the added ability to load the zipped files. 
I am tempted to go back to 4.8.25SL and disable autosave, because it fixed some annoying things that are back in 28A.

This is confusing, is there actually an existing version that you would prefer people be testing ?

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I dont know if its a terrible idea. 

While all the knowledge acquired in developing different branches is incorporated into the main trunk, I think it helps to improve the program.

And it forces the development team to have a vision of the possibilities of the program in other areas of the industry, not only in the entertainment area.

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Really, I do not really understand!

The first time I first heard about 3DC Printing, I thought it was a 3D Printer-related program like the Cura or Simplify3D programs.
At the same time, I sent an email to the support asking about 3dC Printing, because I already have the 3D-Coat Professional.
To my surprise, support replied that it was only part of 3D-Coat (basically the Sculpt Room). Then, I realized that other programs were emerging as they were already targeted in the respective areas.

Andrew and the developers should have their reasons for making that decision.
But with all due respect, I do not understand this and I believe it is a wrong way!
 
I've read on various topics here in the 3D-Coat forum that Andrew's team of developers was small compared to other competing companies.
So, I ask everyone, why focus the team's efforts to create 3D-Coat subprograms?

I agree with @AbnRanger
I have 3D-Coat as my main program. I love this program! As much as I love the program, I can not fool myself into blindness regarding things that happen with 3D-Coat.

Let's all be honest here.
There are many things that I consider to be basic and do not exist in 3D-Coat. I'm going to talk about just a few, because here is not area to be asking for new features. Only I am exemplifying my thinking.

- Improvement of the 3d-coat interface (buttons, slides and etc). Customization of the interface and organization of the 3D-Coat interface:
  -> The user can create his interface according to the tools and commands he uses most.
  -> Custom menus with shortcuts.
  -> Tools with better organization and use of Window space and many other features related to the interface.

- In the sculpt Room, the user can turn the light in all the angles. It is very important that the artist can position the light at extreme angles as above, below the sculpture.
At the moment, the light can only be turned "on the vertical axis".

- Improvement of Shaders for Sculpture:
  -> Properties of having more than one type of Specular in the shader and customizing the curve of this specular for better surface reading. And other properties.

- Improvement of the surface brushes system (Surface and Voxels Mode):
  -> Specific properties related to this improvement:
      . Examples of Blender: Area Plane, View Area, X Plane, Y Plane, Z Plane. Gravity and Orientarion.
  -> Very Important: Performance and feeling of the brushes on the surface of the mesh. And other features

- Improvement in Alphas and Textures System:
  -> Use alphas and textures with 16 bits.
  -> Menu specific to Alphas and Properties like: flip horizontally, flip vertically, apply alpha blur, tiling and other properties.
  -> Mid value property: Zbrush displacement algorithms to determine midpoint value.

- Alpha creation enhancement within 3d-Coat.
  -> Capture the Depth of the detailed surface of a mesh and create an alpha without this alpha being over a stair step in relation to the level of the surface of the mesh being applied the captured alpha.

- Improvement in the detail system in the mesh of a surface:
  -> A mesh with millions of polygons when using the alphas and textures on the surface of the mesh the result is not what is expected, it is bad the detailing in the surface with effects of stairs and defects.
I've seen a lot of people ask about it on the forums and the answer is go to an external program and apply blur to the Depth layer of the brush. But for a user who does not have much knowledge, even after applying the blur he ends up destroying the Brush as it has already happened to me.

In short, there is a basic system that should be focused on development, as well as the new functionalities that are being implemented (sculpt layers) and others in the future.

In my opinion, it's a waste of time dividing 3d-Coat into several sub-programs. Andrew could limit the 3d-Coat according to the license rather than strive to create and maintain the other sub-programs.
I think if Andrew and his developers look more at what I said and other features for 3D-Coat, the program could evolve even in relation to the stability and performance of the program.

Just advice from someone who loves 3D-Coat. ;)

Edited by Rygaard
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2 hours ago, Carlosan said:

I dont know if its a terrible idea. 

While all the knowledge acquired in developing different branches is incorporated into the main trunk, I think it helps to improve the program.

And it forces the development team to have a vision of the possibilities of the program in other areas of the industry, not only in the entertainment area.

You don't see ZBrush being split up into disparate parts, nor Mudbox. Why does 3DCoat, the smallest company of them all need to waste precious development time and resources to do so? If you only want to use part of an app, don't ask or expect the developer to create an offshoot to cater to your needs. Just use the app for what you need. 3D printing could easily be done with the EDU version. Why then does it need to be split into an entirely different app? It doesn't.

This has me really upset because it means all these requests for features in 3DCoat, over the years, go ignored for a few more just because of this needless diversion. My goodness, 3ds Max has users from various industries, and it's not split up. I've never heard of such nonsense.

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1 hour ago, Rygaard said:

- Improvement of the 3d-coat interface (buttons, slides and etc). Customization of the interface and organization of the 3D-Coat interface:

I've been dying for some new UI improvements. Simple things like being able to label layers via a color would be really nice. Other small things like not having true multi monitor support and being able to undock panels outside of the main window.

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We all have diffrent improments we would like to see. For me 3d-coat already has all the features I want from my scultping program. But I have learned that under the hood 3d-coat still needs some work.
Here is one example. In 3d-coat is very easy to create odd vertices/polygons when sculpting. Here is a simple video where I use only one tool and make simple strokes on surface. It should not be that easy 
to break your mesh. I have tested all other sculpting apps and have to admit that they handle these situations much better. But I do love 3d-coat and I'm quite sure that Andrew will make his best to improve
this amazing app. 

 

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just to chime in.
I heard about a dentist version quite a while ago and would be very interested in testing it. Before buying 3D-Coat many years ago I worked a lot with Sensables Freeform Modeling Plus. That was also the reason I decided to purchase 3dc. At that time back then a friend of mine discovered the great advantages of Freeform for dental purposes and eventually Sensable created a fork designed especially for the dental market.
With the voxel possibilities I see great possibilities for 3dc to also be used in that market.
So if developing forks for other markets also bring new features to 3dc and bring some money for the developers to then create more stuff for us I am cool with it.
Not to say that there are still a lot of wishes open for 3dc to be improved and more helpful stuff to be implemented.

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1 hour ago, Mystical said:

I've been dying for some new UI improvements. Simple things like being able to label layers via a color would be really nice. Other small things like not having true multi monitor support and being able to undock panels outside of the main window.

A few months ago, I made some suggestion videos in specific areas. Please feel free to watch the videos:

- Implementation sculpt layers in 3d coat: I suggest several features, including Label Color in Layers.
(Starts at 4:08 minutes mark):  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVv9rBdt85E

- Improvement of the sculpt layers hierarchy system in 3d coat (Sculpt and Paint Layers):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNrKeikUet8

----------------------

As there are competing 3D programs on the market, then I as an artist need to explain what I would like to see in 3D-Coat based on what already exists. Because as I know the ability of Andrew and his developers, I end up suggesting things.
I would like my work to become even better than it already is and at the same time to facilitate the performance of the production and my creativity!
I think that's the goal of all the artists and users of 3D-Coat.
I feel a little stuck and I'm hoping that 3D-Coat will develop into the things I've already said and suggested.

So, it is inevitable or impossible for me to exemplify or suggest some implementation and feature properties without talking about what already exists in the market like Blender, ZBrush, Mudbox, 3ds Max, Maya, Meshmixer, and so on.
I do not see problems with this, on the contrary this is normal. Making comparisons and analyzing what already exists is an important factor in getting the development of the program! That means developing things better than they already exist for the program.

A simple example of this is a sculptor who to evolve in his work, besides studying a lot, observes the work of other sculptors and thus he learns and perfects his skills and techniques. And many times, they develop new techniques through this.

3D-Coat is fantastic and unique, but I will speak for myself!
In my vision there are a lot of things related to the basic structure of the program and the features that already exist in 3D-Coat, for example, in Surface Mode the Copy Clay Tool which is a unique and fantastic tool is forgotten. This tool has incredible power and no other program has it.
What I mean by that is that the tool could be much better, stable and with more features unique in it the same way it could happen in the whole program.

32 minutes ago, haikalle said:

We all have diffrent improments we would like to see. For me 3d-coat already has all the features I want from my scultping program. But I have learned that under the hood 3d-coat still needs some work.
Here is one example. In 3d-coat is very easy to create odd vertices/polygons when sculpting. Here is a simple video where I use only one tool and make simple strokes on surface. It should not be that easy 
to break your mesh. I have tested all other sculpting apps and have to admit that they handle these situations much better. But I do love 3d-coat and I'm quite sure that Andrew will make his best to improve
this amazing app. 

I completely agree with you! I would very much like to be able to sculpt much better without this mess in the mesh and in relation to the feel of the brushes on the surface of the mesh and performance.

----------------------

I think this feeling that I have many of you also have related Interface, Sculpture, Painting, Alphas, Textures and etc.

Edited by Rygaard
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On 11/28/2018 at 12:40 PM, Carlosan said:

3D4Shoes is a branch from 3D-Coat build specially for a client needs.

But the link was removed... where do you found it ?

Hm =) I've downloaded the stable 4.28A and then clicked on the 4.28SL link under the main link =)) And then I've started to install the 3DCoat and saw 3D4Shoes =))) Then clicked again on the SL link and horrayy =) I've downloaded SL version =) ahahah =)

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