Add a VR and fix UV selections

[Antidamage]

This would be incredibly good from a quality-of-life perspective. I know there's a ton of UX challenges to solve, but my god it would be amazing.

Straight up painting a model in VR hasn't been done by anyone yet I believe, and I think this would be a killer feature.

Sculpting HAS been done but I can see a crossover where sculpting and painting combined in new ways could leave to a really interesting new workflow. Right now virtually all 3d sculpting tools only work with geometry and don't consider surface colour or texture. Why can't we slap different colours of clay together? Why can't we join together many otherwise completed and painted parts? Someone has to do this.

But definitely start with painting because that would be an amazing experience.

UV selections could use some work too. I've spent the last two days trying to select all of the polygons inside this box lid at once, but I'm unable to because the UX is so bad:

It's just.. bizarre. I have no idea what any of the extra lines mean. Selection is difficult. Hovering the mouse over a polygon shows the polygon instead of the UV set in the UV window, which is kind of useless. I can't tell if I've managed to select more than one face, and if I did, how did that happen? Things keep changing colours and I don't know what it means. This could benefit from some testing by a new user. I'd be happy to help with that. I'd point to Cinema 4D's circular brush selection tool as a really good example of a nice way to manage selections though. C4D also makes it really clear what polygons you have selected.

I finally managed to get all of the polygons selected except for one of the large faces and an adjacent corner bevel set. Even though the polygons are big they're impossible to select. This is more of a blocking issue than a feature request, so please fix it.

Edited August 18, 2018 by Antidamage

[AbnRanger]

To me, I don't really see the benefit of VR when you already have 3dconnexion support, which is more than ZBrush or Substance Painter offers. It's literally like holding the object in your offhand and working on it with your primary hand. It's really nice and no headset is needed.

[Antidamage]

I have a 3D space navigator and it's not a thousandth as good as the vive motion controllers for precise work. There is a big difference between the two.

[Antidamage]

Found another bug: during image transform there's no way to confirm the placement, so you can't complete the operation:

It should be the enter key, but that doesn't do anything. Having a backup UI button to confirm/cancel would be smart.

Edit: The enter key is not working to confirm most tools, making them unusable. Standard QWERTY USB keyboard, enter key works in everything else. Hasn't been rebound as far as I know (if that's even possible).

Edited August 18, 2018 by Antidamage

[AbnRanger]

31 minutes ago, Antidamage said:

I have a 3D space navigator and it's not a thousandth as good as the vive motion controllers for precise work. There is a big difference between the two.

I've used a SpacePilot for over a decade, with 3DCoat and 3ds Max, and now a SpaceMouse Enterprise. I beg to differ. It's very smooth and precise, and I have no problem rotating about the model while painting, sculpting or doing retopo work. Best part is, I don't have to wear a huge bucket on my head and stand with some controllers in my hand(s). VR seems like another fad, like 3D TV's, IMHO.

[AbnRanger]

...everyone has different preferences, but VR still isn't a widely adopted technology and I'd rather see 3DCoat developed in other areas. Areas people have been waiting on since VR became a fad. I personally don't want to see a fad jump to the front of the (feature request) line, and would prefer to see core improvements that EVERY 3DCoat user can benefit from...not just 1% of the userbase.

Things like a full-fledged Noise Generator (with a large procedural library of noises) in the Sculpt and Paint workspaces. Conditions Painting in the Sculpt Workspace, so it's more accessible when using the Freeze brush. Updating the DX version to DX12, to take advantage of the newer technologies. Update the CUDA code in the Sculpt room, to the newest version and use it on tools like POSE, MOVE and TRANSFORM, not just voxel brushes. Put CUDA or the GPU to work on the Sliders in the Paint workspace. They are practically useless right now, and I've asked Andrew repeatedly, for years to do something about it.

With all of that said, I suspect Andrew will probably do something with VR after V5 is released, because Jama Jurabaev is a big VR proponent and has probably pushed Andrew to add it. 

[Antidamage]

VR isn't a fad, believe me. Space navigators aren't really catching on though, so I suspect the label fad fits better there. 3DConnexions has had what, 400k unit sales ever? There's 20 million VR kits out there after three years. But everyone has their preference.

Anyway, have you used a vive? You get sub-millimeter accuracy. You'll be able to make your object as big as you like and walk around it and paint tiny detail, then scale it right down and paint big details. To me that's the ultimate flexibility and a tool for a specific set of tasks such as actual painting. I wouldn't bother trying to do everything in VR, only what it's good at.

Edited August 18, 2018 by Antidamage

[AbnRanger]

2 hours ago, Antidamage said:

VR isn't a fad, believe me. Space navigators aren't really catching on though, so I suspect the label fad fits better there. 3DConnexions has had what, 400k unit sales ever? There's 20 million VR kits out there after three years. But everyone has their preference.

Anyway, have you used a vive? You get sub-millimeter accuracy. You'll be able to make your object as big as you like and walk around it and paint tiny detail, then scale it right down and paint big details. To me that's the ultimate flexibility and a tool for a specific set of tasks such as actual painting. I wouldn't bother trying to do everything in VR, only what it's good at.

I've just seen demos of people using it and trying to promote it, even in apps like Modo. Problem is, each time I see these guys standing with these large headsets on and controllers in their hands. I cannot see that catching on in most workplaces. Those millions of VR kits are largely for gamers and smart phone owners, not CG production work. And there are a LOT more 3dconnexion devices in VFX , engineering and architecture studios than VR headsets, that's for sure. They've been around a lot longer. In 3DCoat, going without one is like working in Photoshop without a Wacom tablet. There are things you just cannot do, otherwise.

VR most certainly is still in the Fad stage, as it relates to CONTENT CREATION. That's why relatively few apps support it.

[Antidamage]

Great, I'll just leave you to your forum then. Sorry for asking for a feature or some support.

Does anyone know if the Substance Painter guys are like this?

[AbnRanger]

Just now, Antidamage said:

Great, I'll just leave you to your forum then. Sorry for asking for a feature or some support.

Does anyone know if the Substance Painter guys are like this?

I said that is my personal view. We all have competing interests from time to time (that goes for any CG app and their related forums), and as I mentioned, many of us are STILL waiting on things we asked years ago, before VR was even a thing. Andrew is keeping his eye on it, according to a recent interview he gave to some CG magazine. But, like any feature request, it needs to take a number and get in line. I'm not against it entirely. Just not right now, and the reasons are sound. It might be exciting for you, but it's probably not going to affect 95% of the userbase, here.

 

[AbnRanger]

...but Substance Painter doesn't even have 3dconnexion support, despite many of their users asking for it over the years. So, the line waiting for VR support is probably going to be even longer.

[Antidamage]

This sounds like a cult of personality. You'd scare off professionals talking to them like this. Just chill and let us talk about features that don't directly benefit you.

[AbnRanger]

1 minute ago, Antidamage said:

This sounds like a cult of personality. You'd scare off professionals talking to them like this. Just chill and let us talk about features that don't directly benefit you.

...and roughly 98-99% of the userbase, here. Go over to the Modo forum, where they have VR support. Take note just how much conversation there is, regarding VR. VERY LITTLE. This is a FORUM, where PEOPLE....USERS talk amongst themselves. As a user, I'm giving my opinion about the matter. You don't have to like it. The adoption rate for VR (as a content creation tool) among "PROFESSIONALS" is still very, very tiny. It is what it is, and not everything that glitters is gold.

[Antidamage]

You're right, all of us should go to another product where the product creator's best bud isn't telling everyone to shut up and get lost.

[AbnRanger]

11 minutes ago, Antidamage said:

You're right, all of us should go to another product where the product creator's best bud isn't telling everyone to shut up and get lost.

Those are your words. Not mine. I just said it's still viewed as a fad in the industry. Even on the Modo forums, where they are trying to get ahead of the curve, and offer it, there isn't much talk or emphasis about it. What's cool for games or flying drones isn't necessarily cool for the average artist to use in their daily work, creating content. My guess is that, for content creation, the headsets and controllers will get much smaller/slimmer and perhaps then it will see wider adoption.

I don't make decisions for Andrew. If I make a request, I have to wait in line like everybody else. I asked for Sculpt layers, as did many, many users here....for years, and we are just now getting it. Other people are waiting on revamped Layer masks, that work with Photoshop masks. Ask them whether they would be a bit upset to see their long-standing request suddenly get passed over for VR support.

 

[Antidamage]

I get it, I won't see any support here. Thanks for the help, I'll head off now.

[AbnRanger]

4 minutes ago, Antidamage said:

I get it, I won't see any support here. Thanks for the help, I'll head off now.

None at ZBrush Central, either.

http://www.zbrushcentral.com/showthread.php?202787-zbrush-and-VR

[Ballistic_Tension]

lol  yup that's AbnRanger being AbnRanger   .   Antidamage  welcome to 3DCoat  just put on some horse blinders and  wade  past this or just head off to another software .  Not sure on the UV Selection problem that did not get answered  .

[AbnRanger]

4 hours ago, Ballistic_Tension said:

lol  yup that's AbnRanger being AbnRanger   .   Antidamage  welcome to 3DCoat  just put on some horse blinders and  wade  past this or just head off to another software .  Not sure on the UV Selection problem that did not get answered  .

Nothing I said is inaccurate. It would only benefit a very tiny portion of the userbase and a lot of people have been patiently waiting for a long time for certain requests and they would be upset if something like VR jumped ahead of the line. My point is that it's on the feature request radar, but Andrew has to weigh what would best serve the largest number of users and what features has he promised a large number of them, that has yet to be fulfilled.

We don't all have to want the same thing. Some want Andrew to stop adding stuff and just focus on stability. There's no reason to get sore because I don't share the same enthusiasm for VR. I look at Modo as a great example of a company that has it's priorities out of order. They were on track to become a full-fledged 3D app, but stopped that effort a few versions ago. Rather than completing their Character Animation and VFX toolsets, they decided to just focus on Modeling and marketed Modo as a modeling application.

Then, out of the blue, they spent a lot of development time and $$$ on VR. It's cool for those who like VR, but the Modo community as a whole would have been better served seeing the CA and VFX toolsets addressed. Then VR would make more sense. That's sort of where I am, in my own personal views about VR in 3DCoat. I personally think there are bigger fish to fry, and that's just my 2cents worth, as a user. I'd rather see 3DCoat get to where it needs to be as a sculpting platform and texture painting platform. The major competitors to 3DCoat do not offer VR, either, and if you ask them, they would probably give a similar list of reasons.

[AbnRanger]

As for the UV's, in order to select all the polys within a UV island you can hover over the center of a polygon (in the viewport, over the model). When the face is highlighted yellow, you can click on it to select all contiguous faces. Hold the SHIFT and repeat within the boundary (seams) of any other UV island. If all you see previewed when hovering over a face, is just a face, in the Preview Window, it's because that face has seams all around it, and is considered a UV island/Shell. 

CTRL + D, like Photoshop, will deselect.

[Antidamage]

> As for the UV's, in order to select all the polys within a UV island you can hover over the center of a polygon (in the viewport, over the model). When the face is highlighted yellow, you can click on it to select all contiguous faces. Hold the SHIFT and repeat within the boundary (seams) of any other UV island.

Yeah I bet that works in theory. In practice that middle-of-the-polygon hotspot is nigh impossible to find, even for close to equilateral tris. That's why I suggested what I did. Why do you think repeating back to me the thing I said I was doing would help?

Edited August 19, 2018 by Antidamage

[AbnRanger]

17 minutes ago, Antidamage said:

> As for the UV's, in order to select all the polys within a UV island you can hover over the center of a polygon (in the viewport, over the model). When the face is highlighted yellow, you can click on it to select all contiguous faces. Hold the SHIFT and repeat within the boundary (seams) of any other UV island.

Yeah I bet that works in theory. In practice that middle-of-the-polygon hotspot is nigh impossible to find, even for close to equilateral tris. That's why I suggested what I did. Why do you think repeating back to me the thing I said I was doing would help?

Works fine for me. I was just cleaning up some UV's the other day and selecting all contiguous faces worked exactly as I described, and not in theory. 

[AbnRanger]

...and the UX will seem bad if you just auto-map or have it select all hard edges, to where every other polygon is a UV shell. It's not the application's fault when you make your job harder. To give another example of a user making their job harder than it needs to be, if they retopo a sculpt and start subdividing the model before they do their UV's, it will make it harder to work with and more difficult to get a clean result.

Creating clean UV seams makes the whole UV process a breeze. Using Auto map to make the seams for you will make it more of a fuss. That goes for any UV toolset, not just 3DCoat.

[AbnRanger]

....Those seams in that image is an absolute mess, so no wonder it was frustrating to work with. That's kind of the price we pay when we try to take the short cut, sometimes. Auto-Retopo is a good example of that. In the right situation, it can do a fantastic job. But, in other circumstances, it's the wrong tool for the job and the end result will take longer than just using manual retopo tools. My rule of thumb when using Auto-Retopo is the K.I.S.S. method. If it's really complex, try to KISS it by working on parts at a time or try to reduce the amount of surface details it has to calculate.

UV's are similar in that I try to create my own seams, so that I don't waste time later messing around with a messy bunch of UV shells, that got that way cause I wanted to take the shortcut.

[Antidamage]

You don't know what you're talking about. Stop posting.

Edited August 19, 2018 by Antidamage

[Carlosan]

VR is a development that is contemplated in future versions.