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Nossgrr

ZBrush 2019 Launch, March 5th

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I was tempted to post about this several days ago but in the past I've had the moral committee scream at me for being so rude as to post about Zbrush on Andrew's forum.

 

Of course this is nonsense but nevertheless...

http://www.cgchannel.com/2019/02/pixologic-teases-zbrush-2019/

http://docs.pixologic.com/user-guide/3d-modeling/topology/zremesher/

I looked over the 2019 release and the most interesting thing to me was the extensive amount of work they've done to upgrade Remesher, since after all it was Andrew who offered the first remeshing for scupting in 3D in history. The problems they struggle to solve are apparently the same ones  Andrew has struggled with.

spirals.thumb.JPG.c60a915a0ffc5a23a0dda7aca28215d0.JPG

 

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13 minutes ago, L'Ancien Regime said:

I was tempted to post about this several days ago but in the past I've had the moral committee scream at me for being so rude as to post about Zbrush on Andrew's forum.

 

Of course this is nonsense but nevertheless...

http://www.cgchannel.com/2019/02/pixologic-teases-zbrush-2019/

http://docs.pixologic.com/user-guide/3d-modeling/topology/zremesher/

I looked over the 2019 release and the most interesting thing to me was the extensive amount of work they've done to upgrade Remesher, since after all it was Andrew who offered the first remeshing for scupting in 3D in history. The problems they struggle to solve are apparently the same ones  Andrew has struggled with.

spirals.thumb.JPG.c60a915a0ffc5a23a0dda7aca28215d0.JPG

 

Well, I admit, I was the main one against posting a bunch of ZBrush-promoting threads. It really is about moderation. A little occasional chat is fine. However, Pixologic would likewise frown upon a bunch of threads extolling 3DCoat, on their forum, so it's only fair to ask that Andrew be given the same courtesy. That's where I'm coming from.

I think 3dconnexion device support would be a big deal for me, as the lack of it and the UI are the two main reasons I don't use it much. People who don't use one day to day, don't know what they are missing. ZBrush would be so much nicer to use if it had that support.

 

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Just now, AbnRanger said:

Well, I admit, I was the main one against posting a bunch of ZBrush-promoting threads. It really is about moderation. A little occasional chat is fine. However, Pixologic would likewise frown upon a bunch of threads extolling 3DCoat, on their forum, so it's only fair to ask that Andrew be given the same courtesy. That's where I'm coming from.

I think 3dconnexion device support would be a big deal for me, as the lack of it and the UI are the two main reasons I don't use it much. People who don't use one day to day, don't know what they are missing. ZBrush would be so much nicer to use if it had that support.

 

Actually I distinctly remember it wasn't you.

 

And it will be interesting to see if the make any changes to the UI. I just don't like Zbrush UI.

Edited by L'Ancien Regime

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They already showcased pretty much all of what the new update is about, folders, real camera stuff and new UV editor window.

Why would anyone expect more massive changes like a change in UI? Only because some people today still don't get used to it, it's crazy to expect Pixologic changing anything since hundreds of artist already use it with that UI and make great things and barely complain. Changes in the UI means more trouble than good like training people again or delay the upgrade of a new version because you would have to relearn yourself the UI, just to get used to something new only because some people "dont like the UI", it's just not worth it and to be honest, Zbrush UI is just as easy as 3DCoat can get when you use the program long enough. A change on the UI today is like expecting Zbrush to stop being a 2.5D software and go full 3D just because life.

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2 minutes ago, Emi said:

expecting Zbrush to stop being a 2.5D software

Exactly.  That's the sticking point for me right there. I can't stand all the nonsense that goes with that.

516016-Djw11UKPBuU65Kno.thumb.png.4743480d6e9009d8d2b7c33776e58b45.png

 

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Hi 

As a reminder, avoiding posting on Zbrush in the Andrew forum was my suggestion. But I asked Andrew and it's good for him to do it.

Therefore feel free to write whatever you want about it.

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I'm excited either way.. whether it's a 3DCoat or ZBrush release, it's new shiny to play with :) 

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Ok I'm about 12 mins in the presentation where the guys is setting up a toon shader look in the viewport and already I'm going wth is up with all the clicking everywhere.. I mean everything is buried all over the place in different menus.. Complete incoherence. <- maybe it's just me but that would snap me right out of creative mode, I'd be constantly digging in menus.

I didnt think 2019 was going to be a new interface but you always hope they have some sort of vision on how to gradually simplify the interface.. Nope, 

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6 minutes ago, Nossgrr said:

Ok I'm about 12 mins in the presentation where the guys is setting up a toon shader look in the viewport and already I'm going wth is up with all the clicking everywhere.. I mean everything is buried all over the place in different menus.. Complete incoherence. <- maybe it's just me but that would snap me right out of creative mode, I'd be constantly digging in menus.

I didnt think 2019 was going to be a new interface but you always hope they have some sort of vision on how to gradually simplify the interface.. Nope, 

And that is why I love 3D Coat. Mudbox has a simple interface, but it doesn't even lay a glove on 3D Coat for functionality. 

Zbrush has only one thing I want; Zremesher. That's awesome. Other than that, forget about it.

 

"would snap me out of creative mode". You're very polite. How about "would throw me into a murderous purple faced  rage for hours"?

Edited by L'Ancien Regime

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Those toon renders and shaders are kind of cool, not sure if they have a wide use application.  That boolean stuff with their version of the sketch tool seems to copy things we have in 3DCoat already, but makes some really clean looking objects I have to say.  I didn't see much more than that by the time I showed up.

The things that caused me to reject ZBrush are all still heavily present.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

As an aside:
I just discovered the Constructor tool in 3D Coat, whilst browsing the tools for similarities, how have I never played with this before!?  It's so cool!

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3 hours ago, Nossgrr said:

Ok I'm about 12 mins in the presentation where the guys is setting up a toon shader look in the viewport and already I'm going wth is up with all the clicking everywhere.. I mean everything is buried all over the place in different menus.. Complete incoherence. <- maybe it's just me but that would snap me right out of creative mode, I'd be constantly digging in menus.

I didnt think 2019 was going to be a new interface but you always hope they have some sort of vision on how to gradually simplify the interface.. Nope, 

It's hard to use zbrush and think at the same time.  It's fine If I am sculpting on a given concept and not worrying being creative.  

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Not worth a separate thread but while we're on the topic of new releases,  Houdini 17.5 gets released on Thursday evening in Montreal.

 

houdini.thumb.JPG.b8e007c8c56ec2b25b2efd74ba2190ca.JPG

 

I'm hearing talk about USD improvements and perhaps GPU rendering for Mantra...if not 17.5 then 18.0

https://graphics.pixar.com/usd/docs/Introduction-to-USD.html

And I keep hearing about something called Project Solaris;

 

" Project Solaris is focused on Lighting/Rendering/Assembly + GPU support was top-wish last years), there is nearly zero chance it will support AMD chips. Same thing as every GPU renderer out there. I'm MacBook houdinist myself, so I feel your pain, but don't have hopes, buddy."

Edited by L'Ancien Regime
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For those who don't want to spend hours and hours watching tedious demos, here it is in under 3 minutes

 

A longer harsher assessment;

haha 2:40 min mark; Folders. "A lot of people coming from 3D Coat already have something like that.."

 

Edited by L'Ancien Regime

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Was there such a big demand for a non realistic shading pipeline in ZB? Doubt it.

As for the new subscription, now you can pay forever and own nothing as opposed to a perpetual license.. Does this mean Pixo will start charging for every other update now? They have to or the Subs dont make sense.. At least make them Sub to own for one version at the end of the sub once you've paid the equivalent of the retail price.

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I only use zbrush for sculpting because its so light I can use it on a laptop.  Texturing, retopo,uvmap for 3dcoat.

However I think that if Pixo would improve texturing, retopo, uvmap it would be really bad for 3dcoat. 
So 3dcoat has to improve its current toolset performance wise.  The stuff 3dcoat could improve on that would make it competitive in the future.

Faster texture painting - can it be as fast as photoshop like when hiding layers, etc 
Retopo - complete modelling toolset to compete with zbrush polytoolset
Uvmap - revamped way of dealing with UDIM and less confusing and better baking workflow

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I like the zBrush ZRemesher very much. I've made a few tests and don't know a comparable software in this topic.

3D Coat does a nice autopo job, but I hope Andrew will find some time to improve the routines in the future. ZRemesher results are still the best for me.

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17 hours ago, Taros said:

I like the zBrush ZRemesher very much. I've made a few tests and don't know a comparable software in this topic.

3D Coat does a nice autopo job, but I hope Andrew will find some time to improve the routines in the future. ZRemesher results are still the best for me.

Personally I will never bother Andrew on this account; Zbrush has very deep pockets and I was at their Siggraph booth listening in on private conversations there with a  top Zbrush  manager in the year when Zremesher was first unveiled and the word was that they had hired 21 mathematicians with masters or PhD degrees to create it. I'm sure Zremesher v3 has had some very powerful thinkers toiling on all the topology problems inherent in this tool's development to this new level. It's unfair to expect Andrew to somehow equal this feat given his very lean operation.tenor.gif.174400e0018e4d244f741dc0937b10a6.gif

 

To me it's still a marvel that he could take a white paper and 5 weeks later create the first functional auto retopology tool in 3d graphics all by himself  when so many other bigger operations didn't have the scope of imagination to do it themselves.

 

What a guy.

Edited by L'Ancien Regime
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I think Andrew should OS the autotopo algorithm in 3D Coat.  That way the community could contribute as well.  That's the only way I see for competing with the deep pockets of Zbrush.  I remember a while back, he was toying with the idea of OS some aspects of the software which I thought was a really innovative idea.

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Well, with a much smaller staff, you have to pick your battles carefully, and it's already quite an accomplishment for a Texture Painting app to draw that close to ZBrush in terms of sculpting capability, and even offer some advantages over it, in certain areas. Auto-Retopo, for me, works quite well, especially when you factor in the integration of Instant Meshes, as another option. I hope Andrew instead, focuses more on bringing Sculpt Layer functionality up to par with ZB and MB, by adding Masking and Modulation Brushes. Then add a library of Noise Types to the Noise tool (Surface mode) and the Fill brush (Paint Room).

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Hey everyone,

Let me give you a very sincere opinion regarding 3D-Coat and ZBrush.

Nobody here can deny that ZBrush is the program that owns everything or almost everything an artist needs to do anything realistic.
They got where they are today because they invested a lot and listened to the artists in what they would expect from a sculpture program and what they were needing in the workflow.
In this conversation with professionals (artists), Pixologic began to make a list of features and tools that should have absolute priorities so that any artist in the world wished and wanted to have ZBrush and the result would be the sales success of Zbrush in the world.
Pixologic became master of high performance with millions of polygons allowing the artist to sculpt and detail incredible details without having any problems, evolved the system of brushes with complete control of the surface of the mesh (imbed and etc), system of alphas that have several functions that the user can configure in real time (midvalue, Curves or Levels tool and etc) and apply with extreme quality on the mesh surface, powerful system of Sculpt Layers, reprojection of details, boolean operations (including non-destructive), possible rigging with ZSpheres, displacement map application on mesh surface with preview, noise maker system, fast and powerful mask system, wonderful Polygroups system, ZRemesh and a world of things.

Some people may call me crazy, but 3D-Coat is not far behind.
3D-Coat is extremely powerful and unique in several things as well.
The biggest problem of 3D-Coat is not to strengthen and evolve the tools and features that the program already has, as well as making each of them free of bugs.

I have been using 3D-Coat a lot to sculpt my realistic characters and to be honest with all of you, I have been suffering a lot with mesh problems (sometimes there are blasts in the mesh, holes that appear, mesh surface unstable and with serious problems with the use of Remesh brushes, Reconstruction and other functions) in the surface mode.
The performance of 3D-Coat is not very good in relation to Brushes and 3D-Coat's features become slow. Most of the features take a long time to complete and often the program stops working after a long time calculating some operation and I have to force the exit of the program and restart the 3D-Coat.

Despite all this, I love and use 3D-Coat. I can get great results on 3D-Coat and I'm always trying to suggest to Andrew things that can improve not only my life, but like that of all the artists who use the program so that we can get similar or even better qualities than the ZBrush.

Most artists use 3D-Coat to make retopology, Uvs, and paintings. But do not use 3D-Coat to sculpt, they end up preferring ZBrush to sculpt and detail. I am not criticizing anyone and everyone has the right to choose the direction of use of the program and what programs they want to use to carry out their work.
But I think 3D-Coat has incredible potential in the Sculpt Room area and in my opinion it's a waste to not see this area being so evolved and strong. I get frustrated.

I agree with AbnRanger that it is necessary to study and choose carefully the battles that will be invested in the program since the 3D-Coat team is smaller than the ZBrush team and can not make the wrong decisions.
I believe 3D-Coat has everything just to stand out in the Sculpt Room area.

We have Voxels, a powerful system in Surface mode, impressive tools like Copy Brush (surface mode) that is abandoned and this tool does not even exist in ZBrush. Now, have you ever wondered if Pixologic launches a tool similar to Copy Tool? ZBrush users would be crazy! We 3D-Coat users already have this tool and the tool is forgotten and with problems.

For example, in surface mode, where the magic of sculpture happens, we do not have an appropriate Boolean system. Whenever you want to do a Boolean operation most of the time that error window does not allow operation, this is frustrating!
Many people would say, "Why not convert to voxels and do Boolean operation on Voxels?" The answer is simple, sometimes it is not possible, imagine if you have an extremely detailed character where the sculpture and details are done locally and optimized by LiveClay and Remove Stretching, if you convert to voxels the sculpture will not be the same ( even putting billions of polygons) and then the process to optimize this sculpture will become time consuming and very difficult with Reduce or Decimate that will generate problems on the surface of the mesh like expolsões and holes in the mesh.

Unfortunately, features to fix possible surface mode issues can lead to more problems than repair. And the performance in calculations becomes slow and with great possibility of freezing the program.

When I try to suggest tools and features it is not like a child who wants a gift just to satisfy himself at that moment and then pull the toy over. I try to make an effort and explain to Andrew and his team of developers what artists they really need to do a job of equal or better quality than ZBrush.


Sometimes I feel like I'm bothering the developers sending emails with suggestions, but.... I would like to thank Andrew because sometimes he listened to me and I'm glad to see that in some released versions of 3D-Coat there are some suggestions and bug fixes that I submit related to the Sculpt Room.

If we had special and strong development attention in the Sculpt Room, would you imagine how many artists would buy the 3D-Coat to sculpt? If we were too strong in the Sculpt Room, most artists would prefer to sculpt 3D-Coat.
With that, Andrew could increase his team and further develop 3D-Coat.

Please, do not get me wrong, but I see 3D-Coat as a gigantic and rare diamond, but it is raw and not completely polished.

Despite this, 3D-Coat is my main program with no doubts.

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Rygaard,

I understand you and I agree.  3D Coat is already really good and I feel that it is almost right there with Zbrush and even way better in some ways.  The main difference as you stated is attention to detail and overall polish, which is to be expected with such a small development team and a program that has been around about half as long as Zbrush.  The sculpting has so much potential and there are so many unique workflows that are available.  I think the program just needs a bigger team with people focused on each room and someone focused on the overall production pipelines that are available.  

To be honest, I would like to be a programmer for the software even though I'm just learning how to code I do believe I can do it eventually and the program and it's potential is tantalizing enough for me to want to try.  3D coat is the program that taught me how to do 3d, why not learn how to code with it too.  Maybe it's a bit unrealistic, but as a passionate user, I would love to contribute tools and workflows.  Perhaps a richer API for creating tools would be the best way to go and allow users to make robust plugins that would provide the functionality that we're looking for.  I would be happy to learn how to code for the program to add tools if possible.  I would even do it voluntarily when I have time.  As I say this, maybe some of this is already possible with Angel Script.  I'll have to look into it because a lot of what we want might already be possible if we're willing to roll up our sleeves and do the work.  That way the community could focus on adding the features we want while the Pilgway team focus on stability, performance and major features.

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gbball,

3D-Coat has several programs in one. I understand how complicated and complex it must be to maintain a program as powerful as 3D-Coat is. And it's great to see what Andrew's team is capable of doing. So, I congratulate Andrew and his team!

@gbball If you like to program, dedicate yourself that you will get there! You will succeed! I do not see anything wrong or unrealistic if you have the desire to contribute tools and workflows to 3D-Coat.
I do not understand programming a lot, but maybe it would be something to be thought of adding to the Python language in conjunction with the main language of 3D-Coat. I see incredible things happening in Blender through Python. If this Python language implementation were possible, there would be excellent programmers who could do fantastic things for 3D-coat through anabolising addons. I do not know if Andrew has ever thought about Python, but it might not work with 3D-Coat or he has some other reason. But there might be some way that would make it easier for programmers to program code outside of Andrew's team, I do not know anything about Angel Script whether it's easy or not.

Look at the users' passion and Blender community. For me, the version of Blender 2.4 was a real terror. I wanted to move away from Blender, for me it was completely confusing and difficult to understand. When they released version 2.5, I became interested, I thought it was another program, but to my surprise it was Blender and I started learning the program. Now at the present look at Blender version 2.80! It's fantastic! See the evolution of the program, the passion of the users and programmers where they took Blender. I know it's an Opensource program, but even so the passion for this program has led them to complete success in my opinion.

I do not know how Andrew's team works in the development of 3D-Coat. But I agree with you about dedicated people in each room separately.

Today I saw that a programmer from Andrew's team opened a topic asking for suggestions to develop the Retopo Room, in which he spoke to give a lot of love in that area. That's great, but to be very honest with you and everyone in the community, my dream would be if it happened the same in Sculpt Room.
Have you ever imagined Andrew or another developer creating a topic and asking for help developing the Sculpt Room with love?

 I would definitely try to help in the best way possible because my greatest strength is sculpture. Maybe someday we'll see something similar happen in the Sculpt Room.

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