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Retopo Room - Next Steps


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Я не силен в английском, а разработчик похоже, говорит и понимает русский язык, поэтому будет проще написать на нем, чтобы избежать искажения информации.
Вкратце - комната ретопологии - привет из 90х. Я когда увидел возможности скульпта в 3д коата, очень удивился, и обрадовался. Это одна из причин (наверное единственная) по которой я купил эту программу.  Но комната ретопологии это ужас. Почему? Да потому что интерфейс деревянный и неудобный. Он уродливый. 
 
Чтобы понять, что такое НЕ уродливый интерфейс, установите blender 2.79 (не 2.8 - на мой взгляд, это копипаст из Maya половины меню, что ни как не пошло на пользу. копипаст хорош, когда он несет выгоду по сравнению с тем, что было, но сейчас ситуация похожа на втыкание палки в колесо велосипеда) и посмотрите на работу с полигонами (вершинами, ребрами, гранями). Она чудесна. Она проста, она понятна, к ней быстро привыкаешь, и она БЫСТРАЯ.  Там есть меню действий с полигонами в левой части экрана (меню можно скрыть... в отличие от меню коата, снова), однако оно почти НИКОГДА НЕ НУЖНО! Все почему? Потому что контекстное меню вызывается прямо на текущее место курсора в экране и ты там можешь выбрать то, что тебе нужно. Либо пользоваться горячими клавишами - что намного быстрее, чем каждый раз тыкать как слепой котенок, в меню (даже с гротескными значками коата это дико неудобно и дооолго). 
 
Одна из вещей, которую я ожидал в 3д коате в плане ретопологии - что то на уровне з-ремешера, когда, извините за выражение, из говна получается конфетка. Из мешанины полигонов получается крутая сетка. Это не относится к 3д коату. Не относится и к Блендеру. Но я в Блендере могу, потратив время, нанести сетку из полигонов ручками поверх моего меша. И это займет больше времени. Но при этом я не буду плеваться от того, что я не могу выбрать вершину или ребро, как это постоянно происходит в 3д коате, и происходило год назад (и еще куча моментов, когда нет горячих клавиш, но есть переизбыток пиктограмм переизбытка тех или иных ПРОСТЕЙШИХ действий, над которыми я никогда не задумывался, они просто в процессе сами собой происходят - в Блендере). 
 
Просто добавьте в 3д коат тот же функционал (и нормальный интерфейс), что есть в Блендере сейчас вместе с аддоном retopflow 2.0 - там сетка поверх меша создается очень быстро (хотя, не буду врать - я бы и сидел на этом ретопфлоу, если бы не БАГИ. У меня аддон нередко первое время что-то ужасное делает с ретопо-сеткой). 
 
Я не претендую на "истину последней инстанции", но поверьте - если вы проникнитесь работой в блендере, и перенесете стиль работы в Блендере  в 3д коат - это будет бомбезный продукт. Но сейчас, кто бы что ни говорил, даже среди русскоязычных пользователей, которые могут и положительно отозваться - комната ретопологии на данный момент - это... я уже впрочем, всё написал выше. 
 
p.s. я говорю о Блендере так часто, потому что это одна из лучших программ на данный момент. конечно, объективно, до состояния конфетки его доводит некоторое множество дополнений, суммарной стоимостью около ста баксов, но они того стоят. Возможно даже, что в майя, например, или збраше ретопология намного круче, чем в Блендере. поэтому присмотритесь в сторону этих продуктов. но ретопология в том виде, в каком она сейчас в 3д коате - это 100% тупиковая ветвь эволюции.
Edited by Dmitry Bedrik
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Спасибо.

У меня стоит  blender 2.79. И я сделал в нем несколько изделий.

Честно скажу, меня дико бесит его интерфейс. Если в 3DCoat пропадают назначенные горячие клавиши, то это серьезная проблема.

Андрей мне поручил поработать с блендером и с Wings 3D, чтобы посмотреть-перенять у них лучшее.

 

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Ну, на мой взгляд, это "бесит" из той же серии, как для некоторых (меня в том числе) на первых порах, интерфейс збраша кажется сделанным для инопланетян.
 
К сведению - я сам долго вникал, что где и как в Блендере. Зато потом всякие 3д максы кажутся набором... я не знаю чего, анахронизмов?.. 
 
Я могу написать вам в личные сообщения, что как и почему в Блендере. Там всё крайне логично и каждый набор функцию собран в своем уголке. Там, где он не будет пересекаться с десятком другим функций. Но это тема не для обсуждения здесь - не хочу "засорять" форум (то, что видят все, да еще и на русском языке, покуда здесь 90% - англоязычные (или делающие вид)), не относящейся к нему, темой.  
 
Просто для примера - всё ниже показанное (ссылка на артстанцию https://www.artstation.com/s0rda )  я сделал в Блендере (кроме текстурирования - на мой взгляд, substance painter в плане текстурирования что-то невероятное (до тех пор, пока не продались адобе за очередную подписку (женщины легкого поведения видны на горизонте))).  Сделаны модели, развертки, рендер. Постобработка имеет место быть, в некоторых других продуктах (не в фотошопе). 
 
Ну и вдогонку. Я задам простой вопрос. Что есть 3д коат? Программа для скульптинга (который багованный до ужаса, он хорош, но из за багов он неюзабелен процентов на 40)? Программа для текстурирования (возможно... но... опять уродливый интерфейс)? Программа для ретопологии? (где монитор вылетит на улицу, в попытках сделать что-то похожее на набор ключей для велосипеда)? Для рендера (нет.)?
 
Я просто смотрю на работы, сделанные в з-браше и я понимаю, что эта программа - профессиональная - и для тех, кто хочет быть профессионалом. Я смотрю на Блендер, и вижу просто колоссальное количество работ, выполненных в нем. 
 
Я смотрю на 3д коат и вижу.... баги. Баги баги баги.... интерфейс из 90..... это всё очень странно. Ну и работ тоже мало. 
 
 
Если какая-то работа выглядит фантастически в плане детализации - это будет или збраш, или майя (или любой другой продукт автостола), может быть и Блендер. Где я видел 3д коат? Я о нем вообще случайно узнал. Вот так-то. 
 
 

 

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Sorda said:

Я могу написать вам в личные сообщения

Send me mail, please

alex.gorbatovsky@gmail.com

Я хочу получить от вас небольшую помощь по блендеру. И возможно поговорим по скайпу или телефону.

Мы можем и хотим сделать лучше Retopo c Вашей помощью также.

Только пожалуйста, не отзывайтесь негативно о программе.

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Also look at Digital Fossils program NVil  please it offers an excellent workflow.  The learning curve is a bit steep, but once you get going it's faster than anything else for basemesh modeling, even faster than Blender (and I love Blender).

https://digitalfossils.com/

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3 minutes ago, Gorbatovsky said:

Send me mail, please

alex.gorbatovsky@gmail.com

Я хочу получить от вас небольшую помощь по блендеру. И возможно поговорим по скайпу или телефону.

Мы можем и хотим сделать лучше Retopo c Вашей помощью также.

Только пожалуйста, не отзывайтесь негативно о программе.

"Только пожалуйста, не отзывайтесь негативно о программе." - между нами говоря ( и на весь форум тоже) я благодарен Андрею Шпагину за его терпение. Хотя, однако, все это "негативное " я пишу не от того, что я испытываю ненависть к программе или разработчикам. Я трачу на это свое время в надежде на то, что когда описываешь баги и вносишь предложения, программа станет лучше. Я мог бы сказать, что 3д коат это такой збраш от стран снг, но я пока этого не могу сказать (но хочу.. когда все будет хорошо). 

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6 minutes ago, gbball said:

Here is one example of retopo in NVil.  I'm sure it was inspired by 3D Coat.

 

It looks cool. On the screen, nothing more. One small menu that you can move where you want. And while it is effective. 

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Yes,
The whole program is like that and offers very deep customization of tools and the ability for the user to modify each tool by using either LMB, RMB, Scroll Wheel etc.  It's hard to explain and a bit hard to learn because the documentation isn't great, but it's really powerful.

This is the same program but rebranded and with more of a focus on UI and ease of use for beginners.  A user of NVil partnered with the creator of NVil to help create this offshoot of the main application with a different UI that is button based.

The page does a good job of communicating some of the functionality that makes NVil unique and powerful.  So this is really NVil, just packaged differently.

https://rocket3f.com

 

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18 hours ago, Gorbatovsky said:

Thank, you.

I make litle demo wtih new tool Bridge.

 

The BRIDGE tool is probably the most needed tool, as I have been asking Andrew for this for years. The RFill tool is a really good Quad-Capping tool, but it doesn't bridge two selected edges. Thank you for creating this. Is it in any of the new builds, or just your own development build?

Secondly, I wanted to ask, do you think you and Andrew could consolidate Paint Meshes and Retopo Meshes, so that any mesh in the Paint Room can be directly edited or baked in the Retopo room? If so, you could remove the UV tools in the Retopo Workspace, so the UV room is the dedicated workspace for UV's only. Having all of these different mesh types makes it hard for new users to grasp, as it is such an uncommon workflow. It also makes it VERY, VERY, VERY, VERY difficult for me to have to explain why you have to do this with this mesh and that with another, and then another. I have had to do so many retakes and ratakes and retakes, over and over again, because it's hard to explain, having 3 different mesh types and some don't show in this room, but they do in this and this one. I can only imagine how frustrating it is for new users, if I get frustrated demonstrating and explaining it! :)

I tried my best to break it down in the following videos, but even with that, it probably turns some prospective users off. I have asked Andrew about this repeatedly and he agreed it needed to be done. But it was something he didn't have time to work on. Consolidating the Retopo & Paint Meshes (into one Low Poly Mesh) would clean up the UI and allow Andrew to scrap the Tweak Room.

This to me, is far more important and useful than adding more Retopo tools.

 

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If you cannot consolidate the Paint and Retopo Meshes, then the one thing the Retopo desperated needs in order to be effectively used as a Poly Modeling toolset, and Retopo work in some cases (such as trying to conform a generic retopo head mesh to different head/face sculpts), is SOFT/GRADIENT SELECTION. THAT IS A MUST HAVE FOR POLYMODELING. Period. Everything else you could add is of secondary importance.

 

The Tweak Room already has this functionality. It just needs to be added to the Retopo tools. I've asked Andrew for this many times over the past several years. 

The next thing that would be sorely needed is to have a drop list menu for SELECTION SETS. I asked Andrew a long time ago for Selection Sets and he just added the ability to Store to a file and Load later. This is not how SELECTION SETS are handled in any other 3D application.

 

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The Retopo workspace needs to have BOOLEAN functionality built in, like the Sculpt room has, but mainly with all quads where possible. Especially when using the PRIMITIVES tool. You have boolean modes in the same tool in the Sculpt Room, but none in the Retopo Room. If you wanted to Poly-model in the Retopo workspace, you have to go through work-arounds like this, and still end up with triangles rather than Quads.

 

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Hi Gorbatovsky Can I request 2  things about Retopo room Baking?

1. option, which apply initiall sub-Division when Bake.  Though I asked same thing in this topic,  initial sub-D for retopo mesh

I already have sent mail Andrew, but I know he is busy enough, as same as you. so not expect He can keep memorize all  user request.:)  ,

And I  hope to use initial sub-Divide setting, when we improt mesh from paint room to retopo room. (Use visible Paint object as Retopo ) , I clear see, when use this option, retopo mesh return base resolution (not initial sub-Divide applied)

Ideally I hope 3d coat will offer Sub-D modifier, (we can edit base resolution cage- with see sub-D mesh follow, and can change level as we need) but, If it is difficult,  hope to see option, add  initial sub-D with smooth ,when baking maps. (It mostly useful for character texture baking), then we can get best map for the resolution, in another app we pose character (base low poli) then render (sub-D modifier added), without re-import with different  level sub divided mesh.

2 .  Edit baking cage shell (inner and outer)  with gizmo tools. (usually only need to transform  shell  verts with gizmo, more precisely) 

The idea to use brush edit bake cage is awsom, I feel. but about detail area, (eg acute corner faces, or concave inner volumes mesh)  it seems imposibble, to adjust both cage, only with brash ,,,  it often cause problem  when bake normal,, about character eye around, mouth,, or, detail work. (but they are clean connectdd as one mesh)

Edit  baking cages with toransform tool

 

 

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Greetings Gorbatovsky aka Alex

As Carlosan  already wrote. "A polygon modeler really needs to be implemented. A better Connection to the Sculpt room.

As a Old School CAD Modeler ( no Autodesk stuff )  I found that the tools that give the best user Experience are the tools that are shown with a Visual State. 

I'm sure you heard of Hexagon ( now Free ) They have a amazing Set of tools. Another one is Design Spark ( Free too ). Not many people know about this unless they do there research or have somehow used it for school as I have. This Tool is Golden when it comes to Bools, Splines etc..  I really understood what was going on out of the box unlike other tools.

So my Point really is. If you want to show 3DCoat Retopo some love. My Personal advice would be to check them out :)

 

Most of the Polygon Tools are great and do the job well, but the problem is. Most of the time they were made by Professionals who already have 10+ years of Experience in there workflow. So the tools are made for experienced people. Thus forgetting people who are just starting of or who do not even yet grasp how do " Cut edges  " for faster Workflows. Pros love shortcuts because they know what they want. So UI / UX gets lost and becomes not so necessary because they can hook everything up the way they want it to be... and they know what the tool will do for them.( they have a workflow already) 

A good example is: If you want your software to be really User Friendly it has to work with people who only have one Hand. Because if they can Click it all without shortcuts and still obtain a proper speed and understand how the tool is doing it's Part and they do not have to worry about do's and don't s.. Then exploring becomes something unique and not something Bound to one Perspective leaving everyone else behind.  Most artists do not really want to learn how to read a Machine, but we love how it works and how it can be used as a Tool with the other bag of tools we already have. Some Dev's forget this and build crazy functions  ( Like ZB ..3 ways of Saving stored in 3 different places instead of just making 1 place to save, with a check marks to add or remove a functions while it is saving)

( This may be a bit philosophical, but should be pointed out. )

 

Thank you and best of Luck :)

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On 3/16/2019 at 2:29 AM, AbnRanger said:

The Retopo workspace needs to have BOOLEAN functionality built in, like the Sculpt room has...

Yes, applying booleans in a non-destructive way is essential and became a basic tool in all software.

Let me add this reference. I hope will be useful to understand current used workflows.

This is a process for creating hardsurface game assets, automating the highpoly and lowpoly stages as much as possible. Using this technique the artist can spend more time focusing on form design, less time on tedious operations relating to subdivision or optimization.

by Amsterdam Hilton Hotel

source

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On 3/15/2019 at 8:40 AM, tokikake said:

I do not know, how I call the primitive,, but easy make shape from spline curve

Hi 

This new tool was added on latest version 4.8.35.

Please take a look

- Curves got really rich update. Now it is possibly to construct many different shapes using curves in non-destructive way. Click RMB over the curve and look at the list of modifiers. There are videos that describe how it works:
  Swept Surface 1 - https://youtu.be/8BCawmVqGK4
  Creating a surface of revolution - https://youtu.be/XdYuoaNIwsA
  Polyhedron - https://youtu.be/c7Xld8udEXM
  Swept Surface 2 - https://youtu.be/pLkBVx8vKPI
  Swept Surface 3 - https://youtu.be/p8g6pn_810s
  Sword - https://youtu.be/Qyy-aqPG1iY
  Goose - https://youtu.be/f9mY5wlvvwA

 

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Thanks AbnRanger, your video  remember  me  to use primitive tools of Retopo room.  (I almost forget, there were already primitive tools in retopo room too:blush:

Usually I just import from stamp, and forgot,  I could use rattice for those stamp mesh. (with primitive tool asctive)

Are you those 3d coat video author?  I really thanks you work for these videos.  I really  enjoy and learn most of videos.  Without your videos I could not understand how each tool or room work^^;

 

Thanks Carlosan to report many good news ^_^ there seems many new future for curves.

Then some of them will be added for retopo room too?  I had not expected so many up-date,   but I hoped if beta will offer this tool (in pic) .

retopomeshspintool.thumb.JPG.0f2114be1c1b51dea3f3fd6f03b1ea6c.JPG

or I hope to see kind of blender 2.8 new spin tool.

spin28.thumb.JPG.a606cf6d6d5d61521c665c1b148f19bc.JPG

Though these are not same function,. hope to see them in 3d coat retopo room as future requeset ^^

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On 3/13/2019 at 3:57 PM, Gorbatovsky said:

Andrew spoke me about Wings3D.

Today we spoke with Stas that the room Retopo should be divided.

I was thinking about tokikake and other user request... may be i was wrong, and we dont need to ask for Surface Modeler BUT CAD Room.

I refer to the possibility of creating and manipulating nurbs surfaces and transforming them into voxels or surfaces. Let's take Rhino, MOI, Fusion360, Freecad as examples.

Non-destructive modeling of surfaces using nurbs and booleans, ready to be used in industrial design and print manufacturing or in the entertainment industry... infinite possibilities would open.

On 3/19/2009 at 4:05 AM, Andrew Shpagin said:

If you mean possibility to create and manipulate nurbs surfaces and transform them to voxels, it is not so hard to do, just time question (as always). 

There is very good SDK - http://www.opennurbs.org/ and I plan to use it or 3DC.

 

 

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On 3/15/2019 at 8:06 PM, gbball said:

Also look at Digital Fossils program NVil  please it offers an excellent workflow.

I'm a little bit torn about what I'm about to say now because I like 3D Coat a lot and have been using it for many years (and will still continue to use it), but in my opinion none of the retopo solutions currently available on the market (including Houdini's TopoBuild, which, even as a long time Houdini user, I don't understand why everyone is so excited about as it doesn't offer anything new) can compare to NVil's Draw Mesh SteamLine tool feature wise. For me this tool offers the most efficient semi-automatic retopo right now, and NVil has been my "go to" app for this kind of jobs ever since this tool was developed (to a point where I spent two years trying to run it under WINE, as it's totally windows app unfortunately - but it works on 3.20).

When Farsthary first announced that he is working on new retopo tools (and it was way before the Draw Mesh work even begun, I think), I imagined that those tools would look exactly like Draw Mesh. You draw main edge loops and let the algorithm generate the fill geometry for you. This is extremely productive because you don't have to waste your time to draw geometry that needs to follow some kind of rules anyway, and as thus shouldn't need your attention at all (or should require your minimal attention at most).

But Draw Mesh isn't the tool on its own in the retopo process. When retopologizing an asset in NVil, you still have access to the full modelling suite offered by the program. And its modeling toolset is pretty damn powerful. In my eyes way more powerful than what Blender 2.8 have to offer at its current state (minus modifiers, because NVil doesn't have them).

Pilgway could make some sort of a deal with DigitalFossils in order to combine forces against some of the more powerful competition. Because why the hell not? Maybe it's worth a try to get to some form of agreement? We could get the best semi-automatic retopo algorithms available on the market, powerful modeling solution and excellent sculpting/texturing software combined together in one superpackage. Let's kick the new ZRemesher ass by giving the user more control on his retopo mesh. ;)

You can watch Draw Mesh in action (on a 3DC-made sculpture) on my playlist, but do note that this is an old demo of very early Draw Mesh version, and since those videos were recorded, many improvements have been introduced to that tool: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44ndpC8lMO0&list=PLNPeRk-wjBGiod2fk0YSaYCK0Oh6JpMQj

 

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1 hour ago, ajz3d said:

I'm a little bit torn about what I'm about to say now because I like 3D Coat a lot and have been using it for many years (and will still continue to use it), but in my opinion none of the retopo solutions currently available on the market (including Houdini's TopoBuild, which, even as a long time Houdini user, I don't understand why everyone is so excited about as it doesn't offer anything new) can compare to NVil's Draw Mesh SteamLine tool feature wise. For me this tool offers the most efficient semi-automatic retopo right now, and NVil has been my "go to" app for this kind of jobs ever since this tool was developed (to a point where I spent two years trying to run it under WINE, as it's totally windows app unfortunately - but it works on 3.20).

When Farsthary first announced that he is working on new retopo tools (and it was way before the Draw Mesh work even begun, I think), I imagined that those tools would look exactly like Draw Mesh. You draw main edge loops and let the algorithm generate the fill geometry for you. This is extremely productive because you don't have to waste your time to draw geometry that needs to follow some kind of rules anyway, and as thus shouldn't need your attention at all (or should require your minimal attention at most).

But Draw Mesh isn't the tool on its own in the retopo process. When retopologizing an asset in NVil, you still have access to the full modelling suite offered by the program. And its modeling toolset is pretty damn powerful. In my eyes way more powerful than what Blender 2.8 have to offer at its current state (minus modifiers, because NVil doesn't have them).

Pilgway could make some sort of a deal with DigitalFossils in order to combine forces against some of the more powerful competition. Because why the hell not? Maybe it's worth a try to get to some form of agreement? We could get the best semi-automatic retopo algorithms available on the market, powerful modeling solution and excellent sculpting/texturing software combined together in one superpackage. Let's kick the new ZRemesher ass by giving the user more control on his retopo mesh. ;)

You can watch Draw Mesh in action (on a 3DC-made sculpture) on my playlist, but do note that this is an old demo of very early Draw Mesh version, and since those videos were recorded, many improvements have been introduced to that tool: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44ndpC8lMO0&list=PLNPeRk-wjBGiod2fk0YSaYCK0Oh6JpMQj

 

I like your thinking. Send Andrew an e-mail. A really robust modeling toolset would set 3DCoat apart, especially if it had non-destructive booleans.

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12 hours ago, tokikake said:

Thanks AbnRanger, your video  remember  me  to use primitive tools of Retopo room.  (I almost forget, there were already primitive tools in retopo room too:blush:

Usually I just import from stamp, and forgot,  I could use rattice for those stamp mesh. (with primitive tool asctive)

Are you those 3d coat video author?  I really thanks you work for these videos.  I really  enjoy and learn most of videos.  Without your videos I could not understand how each tool or room work^^;

 

Thanks Carlosan to report many good news ^_^ there seems many new future for curves.

Then some of them will be added for retopo room too?  I had not expected so many up-date,   but I hoped if beta will offer this tool (in pic) .

retopomeshspintool.thumb.JPG.0f2114be1c1b51dea3f3fd6f03b1ea6c.JPG

or I hope to see kind of blender 2.8 new spin tool.

spin28.thumb.JPG.a606cf6d6d5d61521c665c1b148f19bc.JPG

Though these are not same function,. hope to see them in 3d coat retopo room as future requeset ^^

Thanks for the kind words. Yes, most of the videos on the Youtube Channel. I agree, it would be helpful to have the Lathe tool added to the Primitives, to build nice, quad-based shapes.

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Sorry but ... why waste time and dev effort in adding an appendix to the program if blender is free, rocket3f is free and nvil costs 60us ?

If we have to stick strictly to the development of retopo room, my proposal is to pay close attention to unfold3d-rizomlab. If you do not know it, buy it or download a trial, try the workflow and features to have a clear idea of how it works. That software is pure magic and I hope to have the same performance and tools that this software offers within 3Dcoat.

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I agree. I think that 3d-coat dosen't gain much a new users if they add modelling tools. There is already so many options out there, ether paid or free. The winner of "Jack of all trades" is going to be blender, and I hope
that 3d-coat dosen't start to compete with that race with blender because it's going to lose that one for sure. Best thing for 3d-coat is to keep focus on texturing-retopo-sculpting and beeing innovate in those areas. 

That's said it's good that retopo room gets some love but if that love is only adding new tools then I think it's maybe not the best way to go...
 

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