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Andrew Shpagin

3DCoat 4.9 BETA testing thread

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- I still can't drag multiple layers to the sub-layer or pull layers from the sub-layer. They are pulled out one at a time.
- It still does not work the first time just take and drag the layer, it is randomly either dragged into the sub-layer or remains in the same place.
- Still no support for 4k monitors
- There is still a glitch with switching using hot keys, from the Pose tool to any other - if you work in Pose, then when I select any other tool using a hotkey (smoothing, for example), the program switches to the desired tool and instantly returns to the instrument pose.
- Still incorrect operation of the "flatten" tool (in voxel mode)  - instead of taking a plane of three or more points from the center of the brush, the tool sometimes cuts off the wrong parts of the mesh that are needed.

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Please please please, if there's one addition to 2021, please add proper multi-monitor support (not just side by side monitor support but any 2 monitors - including up and down mounted ones) with dockable, collapsible tabs like Affinity Photo has.  It lets you access panels and collapse them away super easily

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Has anyone ever run across a problem where painting with a strip causes permanent damage to a layer? When I mean permanent I mean it literally has created destruction on my layer which cannot be erased or painted over. I was simply painting with a strip brush alongside a mesh and then did undo when I didn't like the result and this occurred:

image.thumb.png.42e6aeaaac0a1e6e2f61bcf36a2b5ec5.png

In 2d mode with normals toggled you can clearly see the damage:

image.png.57287dd9daf0500fc289c242d31ac8e7.png

 

Now I now what you are thinking "just use erase tool and make sure normals is toggled and set to 100%. Tried it, won't erase. Its clearly destroyed this layer becasue if I turn the layer off everything is fine but this layer seems permanently damaged. I can't even paint new normal map detail over this 'black hole' section. Even worse restarting 3D Coat(v4.9.65) its still retained so its not just some temporary memory issue that cleans itself up on program restart. Even exporting the normal map texture the corruption is still visible. I've even tried duplicating the layer to see if a duplicated one loses the corruption but it still persists. I don't think there is a way I can transfer over all the paint data I did and just exclude that area so the layer will have that small corruption on it forever.

I've seen weird artifacts when painting normal data occur but it was always able to be erased, I've never encountered something that looked like this ever before ...

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Hi

Is Sculpt layers (preferences > Beta Tools) turned off ?

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Thanks for fast reply, yes I have never touched any setting in the beta section it is left like this for me:
image.png.0374eb47bf2f0f091d9e0817c5e1b7b2.png

I should point out the issue occurred for me in paint room when I was working on the model as well.

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38 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Thanks for fast reply, yes I have never touched any setting in the beta section it is left like this for me:
 

I should point out the issue occurred for me in paint room when I was working on the model as well.

Would it be possible for you to create a file stripped of everything else that you could share, with the corrupted layer in it ?

For example you could delete most of the geometry in the retopo room and update the paint mesh.
then delete everything you have in the sculpt room, in the retopo room, and other paint layers you have.

I don't think it would be a problem sharing such a file ?

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17 hours ago, Silas Merlin said:

Would it be possible for you to create a file stripped of everything else that you could share, with the corrupted layer in it ?

For example you could delete most of the geometry in the retopo room and update the paint mesh.
then delete everything you have in the sculpt room, in the retopo room, and other paint layers you have.

I don't think it would be a problem sharing such a file ?

I attached the file (I'll keep the file in the post available until you/Carlosan get it). I labeled the corrupted layer too. Along with a another layer just circling the trouble area with arrows that you can toggle off later, just so its easy to find the trouble spot quickly. The corrupted layer had lots of other normal map detail on it but I erased all of it, except for the corruption which does not appear erasable, if its the same results I have you won't be able to to get rid of the corruption from that layer. Thanks for looking into it.

Edited by Mystical

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I found the hole is on Layer0

image_2021-02-09_145124.png

 

I cleaned it up painting grey over it.

clean.jpg

 

And suddenly all paint strokes keep corrupted.

image_2021-02-09_145715.png

 

Unwraping it again solved the issue

unwarp.jpg

 

 

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37 minutes ago, Mystical said:

I attached the file (I'll keep the file in the post available until you/Carlosan get it). I labeled the corrupted layer too. Along with a another layer just circling the trouble area with arrows that you can toggle off later, just so its easy to find the trouble spot quickly. The corrupted layer had lots of other normal map detail on it but I erased all of it, except for the corruption which does not appear erasable, if its the same results I have you won't be able to to get rid of the corruption from that layer. Thanks for looking into it.
 

corrupted_layer.zip

could you fill Layer 0 (green ball only) with this color and see if the problem persists ? image.png.ccfa6851a727dc899622aedc8993d79d.png

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So filling back the paint hole on layer 0 still does not fix anything on my end, I still was unable to erase the corruption damage on the other layer so it still looked like this:image.png.18e8ad64ac43674dc7f3f7b92004e2f2.png

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My test

Unwraping it again solved the issue

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24 minutes ago, Mystical said:

So filling back the paint hole on layer 0 still does not fix anything on my end, I still was unable to erase the corruption damage on the other layer so it still looked like this:

The issue on my end is that I am not seeing any corruption...
I forgot to ask what build are you on ?
4.9.68 here.
When I open the file everything is just fine except for layer 0 being partly erased (it probably happened when you were trying to fix your issue)

I really wanted to see the corrupted layer, but anyway, here is my suggestion to fix it on your end while keeping the painting :
-hide all other layers including layer 0
-export color+alpha, normal map, roughness, metal
-delete corrupted layer
-import the maps you exported and merge them into a single layer.

 

Edited by Silas Merlin

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That is odd the file I sent doesn't have the corrupted layer.

For testing purposes I did reapply unwrap and it seems to remove all my normal map data from every layer (color and gloss retains though). The corruption unfortunately still retains as well on that corrupted layer for my real scene. The test file I sent however the issue does 'fix' itself after I saved and reopened the file when repainting the layer 0 to be fully filled again with the grey color. However trying to replicate the same thing in my real scene the corruption retains itself.

Also for exporting layers from my real scene, the normal map corruption is applied to the file itself as well, I upgraded to 4.9.68.

I think I'm just going to cut my losses and accept that small section will have a weird spot on it, its very small and thankfully for what I'm using the model for it would be hard to see, just annoying to have a layer seem to be permanently damaged. I've never seen an error like this occur before and hopefully never see it again.

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16 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Also for exporting layers from my real scene, the normal map corruption is applied to the file itself

 

Yes and no.
That is :
-your layer is corrupted
-you export maps with Fire > export objects and textues
- > the corruption appears on the maps, yes, but they are not "corrupt", only the layer is. This means that when you import the maps and merge them to a single layer, the new layer won't be corrupt. do you follow ? Yes, it will show the corruption, but now you will be able to erase it and paint over flawlessly, because the new layer is pristine.

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2 minutes ago, Silas Merlin said:

Yes and no.
That is :
-your layer is corrupted
-you export maps with Fire > export objects and textues
- > the corruption appears on the maps, yes, but they are not "corrupt", only the layer is. This means that when you import the maps and merge them to a single layer, the new layer won't be corrupt. do you follow ? Yes, it will show the corruption, but now you will be able to erase it and paint over flawlessly, because the new layer is pristine.

Thanks that is indeed a workaround solution. Since its not the same corrupted layer I can finally erase that junk and repair that small section.

In the future if layer 0 being partially erased was the culprit I'll just make sure the layer is locked from now on. I usually save often and in-between big changes but didn't think being able to not erase normal map data would ever be possible but now I know 3d coat can break that way so to look out for it and not save the file if I see that occur again. Carlosan also being able to get a strip to be corrupted until unwrapping the model is worrying too. You could be 90% done through a perfectly fine model and if the only solution is to start over/re-unwrap that doesn't sound good.

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22 minutes ago, Mystical said:

 You could be 90% done through a perfectly fine model and if the only solution is to start over/re-unwrap that doesn't sound good.

Always save incrementally (CTRL+SHIFT+S) throughout the project.
(Do this every time you are going to perform an action that you think might cause an issue or a crash, based on your past experience with 3dc)
Do not delete the incremental saves until the end or until you have taken the time to check if everything is in order.
Do not delete the next-to-last incremental save until you have checked that you can reopen the last one.

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20 hours ago, Mystical said:

Has anyone ever run across a problem where painting with a strip causes permanent damage to a layer? When I mean permanent I mean it literally has created destruction on my layer which cannot be erased or painted over. I was simply painting with a strip brush alongside a mesh and then did undo when I didn't like the result and this occurred:

image.thumb.png.42e6aeaaac0a1e6e2f61bcf36a2b5ec5.png

In 2d mode with normals toggled you can clearly see the damage:

image.png.57287dd9daf0500fc289c242d31ac8e7.png

 

Now I now what you are thinking "just use erase tool and make sure normals is toggled and set to 100%. Tried it, won't erase. Its clearly destroyed this layer becasue if I turn the layer off everything is fine but this layer seems permanently damaged. I can't even paint new normal map detail over this 'black hole' section. Even worse restarting 3D Coat(v4.9.65) its still retained so its not just some temporary memory issue that cleans itself up on program restart. Even exporting the normal map texture the corruption is still visible. I've even tried duplicating the layer to see if a duplicated one loses the corruption but it still persists. I don't think there is a way I can transfer over all the paint data I did and just exclude that area so the layer will have that small corruption on it forever.

I've seen weird artifacts when painting normal data occur but it was always able to be erased, I've never encountered something that looked like this ever before ...

Yes, it effects displacement too. There are several of us now that have brought it up to Andrew in various ways but for weeks now he doesn't address the issue and I think it's safe to say that this problem will exist in the 2021 version unless he does something about it now but at this time it looks like all support for 4.9 has ceased unless he's just in a rush trying to get 2021 version available. Many projects DEAD because of sudden paint glitches. From my experience , 3DCoat brush isn't error free on topology with a zigzag.  Until this mess gets fixed I wont be upgrading and may instead go to Marmoset or Substance painter.

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5 hours ago, Mystical said:

Thanks that is indeed a workaround solution. Since its not the same corrupted layer I can finally erase that junk and repair that small section.

In the future if layer 0 being partially erased was the culprit I'll just make sure the layer is locked from now on. I usually save often and in-between big changes but didn't think being able to not erase normal map data would ever be possible but now I know 3d coat can break that way so to look out for it and not save the file if I see that occur again. Carlosan also being able to get a strip to be corrupted until unwrapping the model is worrying too. You could be 90% done through a perfectly fine model and if the only solution is to start over/re-unwrap that doesn't sound good.

I agree and request 3d coat team keep lock the 0 layer as default, (only offer to show newtral color, normal, and alpha 1.0)  then user may add new base layer, and hide layer 0 when we need to check alpha etc) . a few years ago, I heard the layer 0 will be locked in another layer 0 related topic . but the plan seems forgotten:mellow:

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Never do any work on Layer "0". It is reserved for 3DC use only for operations with textures. 

It would be good not to depend on Layer0 to handle transparencies and that it remains directly hidden.

A layer and mask system that works the same as Photoshop has long been in the todolist. 

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Using 4.9.68 on Mac there is a bug with the "Add Cone" in the sculpt room, when adding a cone to a surface voxlayer, if the cone has a filet defined, then after a while of resizing the cone and adjusting the fillet, the fillet will no longer be honored.

I was using the cone/w fillet to make teeth and after making about 5 or 6 teeth it looses the fillet setting, but can be reset with "Reset scale". 

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On 2/9/2021 at 11:57 AM, Mystical said:

Thanks that is indeed a workaround solution. Since its not the same corrupted layer I can finally erase that junk and repair that small section.

In the future if layer 0 being partially erased was the culprit I'll just make sure the layer is locked from now on. I usually save often and in-between big changes but didn't think being able to not erase normal map data would ever be possible but now I know 3d coat can break that way so to look out for it and not save the file if I see that occur again. Carlosan also being able to get a strip to be corrupted until unwrapping the model is worrying too. You could be 90% done through a perfectly fine model and if the only solution is to start over/re-unwrap that doesn't sound good.

Sorry for intruding on this thread - but can someone please explain how these tiny little holes appear in the first place?  Is it accidental erasure on layer 0 with the eraser tool?  I've seen these before, but in general I've been able to paint over them on other higher layers.  While you're at it, I thought Layer 0 (in Paint Room) was just a convenience/grey layer to be able to see the object - does Layer 0 have any importance?  I mean assuming I fully fill another layer (or even if I don't if I want transparency) then it doesn't matter if Layer 0 is messed up or even deleted, assuming the object looks fine with all the other layers?   I mean there's no like significant vertex map data that has to be there on Layer 0 is there?    And are these holes you experience related to this issue?

Thanks for explaining -  you could clear up a potential fundamental 3DC tidbit for me if I've got it all wrong.

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On 2/10/2021 at 6:15 AM, Carlosan said:

Never do any work on Layer "0". It is reserved for 3DC use only for operations with textures. 

It would be good not to depend on Layer0 to handle transparencies and that it remains directly hidden.

A layer and mask system that works the same as Photoshop has long been in the todolist. 

So should I always lock Layer 0?  Can it be hidden? 

I also don't touch Curvature or AO layers that get created by using some Smart Materials - I don't fully get where those layers need to be in the layer stack either - it puts them at the top and then where should new layers i add after that go? Above or below those special layers?

it would be great if these system/special layers are visually different/colored and potentially locked with tooltips explaining what they are and how to use them or how not to use them.... They are a source of confusion for me.

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6 hours ago, popwfx said:

Sorry for intruding on this thread - but can someone please explain how these tiny little holes appear in the first place?  Is it accidental erasure on layer 0 with the eraser tool?  I've seen these before, but in general I've been able to paint over them on other higher layers.  While you're at it, I thought Layer 0 (in Paint Room) was just a convenience/grey layer to be able to see the object - does Layer 0 have any importance?  I mean assuming I fully fill another layer (or even if I don't if I want transparency) then it doesn't matter if Layer 0 is messed up or even deleted, assuming the object looks fine with all the other layers?   I mean there's no like significant vertex map data that has to be there on Layer 0 is there?    And are these holes you experience related to this issue?

Thanks for explaining -  you could clear up a potential fundamental 3DC tidbit for me if I've got it all wrong.

For me the normal map corruption occurred when I was painting with a strip on the side of my mesh on a different layer. I think the eraser bit I had done to layer 0 was after the corruption occurred.

Thanks to the advice of Silas Merlin I repaired my layer by exporting all the texture maps for that layer then re-importing and being able to finally erase the weird normal map issues afterwards. It still is quite a lot of work to fix the corruption I feel shouldn't ever get that bad though. Hopefully the new 3D Coat 2021 version doesn't have this issue or if it does it gets fixed as a priority concern.

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