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Here is a small update for David Walters who gave me some ideas.

Great, thanks ... one thing I think is that "Brush Setting" can actually go - that's what the 'tool options' for "Brush" and "Spray" would be, right?

I also think that Materials and Masks would be better docked in the 'pen' group. I am operating under the assumption that panels can be torn off and docked in arbitrary groupings, this is the sort of feature that ultimately what makes your UI suit everyone.

Another thing - and this is more subjective than logical - I prefer square check boxes, the point ones you've got don't look as good to me as the ones currently in 3D Coat already. (Also, the one by 'Lock' should be green.)

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Cool its kinda like the way 3D present its information when you mouse over a tool. Can you take a screenshoot of a brush tool or something that has alot of key combos(CTRL+ LMB, ALT+LMB,etc)?

About the slider box, most slider in mainstream 3D application are pretty much neutral even in Mudbox they are pretty much a single color and i being blind as a bat manage to hit them everytime.

Also we have too many tabs, things like Blending, Pen Option can be throw away for something more global, something more generic that can display anything from camera options, mesh property, shader property,layer property,etc. We need a "Property" tab , this is common in most 3D app, even in Mudbox. We also need a way to view the entire scene(meshes,UVs,camera,lights,shader,etc). We need a Scene graph of some sort, probably a tree view, again every 3D app has something like this. Having those 2(Property and Scene List) will make life easier for the users.

LOL Sonk, you funny sometimes. and again...every 3D app has something like this.... and again every 3D app has something like that... and again... every 3D............ hehehe

Well of course you don't want to spread every function into an individual tab, otherwise you will end up having tabs everywhere, not ideal of course.

I still honestly insist on adding a color OR at least darken the drager slider. The difference between Mudbox and 3DC is that in Mud your interface is bright color and the words are all black. HOWEVER, in 3DC your background is gray dark and the words are gray and other items. That makes the selection harder and one of the major complaints of MAX 2010 new UI.

Now forget the graphite ribbon, but look at the Max interface, and where it fails:

http://blog.duber.cz/wp-content/uploads/max2010_ui.png

Can you take a screenshoot of a brush tool or something that has alot of key combos(CTRL+ LMB, ALT+LMB,etc)?

Also, notice the slider color, it's not striking, but enough to stand out from the background. you know what I mean? Trust me in this.

http://www.web3dnews.org/reviews/zbrush1/img3/zbrush-UI.jpg

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Great, thanks ... one thing I think is that "Brush Setting" can actually go - that's what the 'tool options' for "Brush" and "Spray" would be, right?

I also think that Materials and Masks would be better docked in the 'pen' group. I am operating under the assumption that panels can be torn off and docked in arbitrary groupings, this is the sort of feature that ultimately what makes your UI suit everyone.

Another thing - and this is more subjective than logical - I prefer square check boxes, the point ones you've got don't look as good to me as the ones currently in 3D Coat already. (Also, the one by 'Lock' should be green.)

Way ahead of you check the attachment. Im trying to mock-up an idea setup and moving the Materials,Mask and Strip to the pen made it more logical and it gave me room for a Scene List, and Property tab. Docking is definitely in according to Andrew.

Ah, okie i know what you mean about the brush settting with the spray/brush..it must be lack of sleep! Anyway i think you mean i can remove the Brush setting icon and put that in the Tool Option for both brush/spray, correct?

And i agree about the square check out, i'll add them back in the next revision. I was just experimenting to see what people thought about it ;) Actually its quite logical to have square check boxes, its so common in most 3D app.

LOL Sonk, you funny sometimes. and again...every 3D app has something like this.... and again every 3D app has something like that... and again... every 3D............ hehehe

Well of course you don't want to spread every function into an individual tab, otherwise you will end up having tabs everywhere.

Right now as it is theres' alot of extra tabs in his GUI implementation so that comment was more meant for Andrew i just quoted you since he hasn't been replying.

PS> no color slider for 3DC :P it works in the case of Zbrush because the width of the colored drag box is so thin. But if you have a square drag box like 3DC adding color really makes it pop out too much..making things very distracting when you work. However if the color was fairly faint it *might* work but for sure bright colors won't. I totally agree about taking the best things from different apps..and i do see alot of things that are wrong with Max 2010 GUI...BTW you know that 3DC main colors can be changed right? there are lighter color schemes but i usually use the dark one.

post-564-1240393488_thumb.jpg

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Brush setting is just the e-panel i just added some more sliders. I'm not sure how many tools well be affect by the setting besides the brush and spray, but the Tool Option = Tool Property page, whatever tools get select its options/subtools(this will be nice when dealing with UV or Retopolgy tools) get display in that area.

Quick reply: AFAIK only Brush and Spray use the brush settings properties, and if not then other tools can have those settings incorporated into their properties as well. Fundamentally "Brush Settings" is not a tool so it is out of place. see EDIT3 of this messy post!

Also, what you've done moving colour, depth and spec into one group is more compact, but I think should be highlighted as an example of the flexibility of tab panels - not assumed to a permanent default. Not saying people will necessarily make that assumption though! :drinks:

EDIT: An we have an 'object list' already - that would probably best be a tab docked in with the layers. I hope that panel can dynamically switch between voxel subtools and regular meshes.

EDIT2: Shouldn't "DP Paint" be called "3D Paint" -- it fits better with the 2D Paint tab (which could be bumped across to be immeditately the right of 3d paint), and I'm actualy not sure what DP stands for - or whether it would translate well to other languages.

EDIT3: I've just had a better idea: that if this new "e-panel + radius, etc." / "Brush Settings" panel was unique and omnipresent - like the color, spec, etc. panels are - perhaps that would make more sense, and allow these settings to be done once by Andrew and not replicated in a number of slightly different ways for each tool. It's certainly going to be needed for Voxel mode anyway as you use some of those for cutting holes in your sculpt, etc. You've also got think of the future where we need things like the color panel, etc. for direct voxel painting.

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Now forget the graphite ribbon, but look at the Max interface, and where it fails:

http://blog.duber.cz/wp-content/uploads/max2010_ui.png

That's the first time I've seen the Max 2010 UI. They just keep making it worse and worse don't they?

EDIT2: Shouldn't "DP Paint" be called "3D Paint" -- it fits better with the 2D Paint tab (which could be bumped across to be immeditately the right of 3d paint), and I'm actualy not sure what DP stands for - or whether it would translate well to other languages.

3D Paint is not clear enough. DP is Direct Pixel AKA Per Pixel. So if you named the whole tab "3D Paint" you could not distinguish between DP and micro vertex (the old style). Unless you could use the same room for both methods which is actually they way I assumed it would work.

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3D Paint is not clear enough. DP is Direct Pixel AKA Per Pixel. So if you named the whole tab "3D Paint" you could not distinguish between DP and micro vertex (the old style). Unless you could use the same room for both methods which is actually they way I assumed it would work.

Yeah, I assumed the split would be to the level of Polygon / Voxel -- with the poly mode having both Import per-pixel and Import micro-vertex like we have now -- meaning the tab has to reflect the union of the two.

Heh, I guess to be future proof the tab should be 'Polygon Paint' allowing for Voxel painting -- but it's probably prudent to stick with the features we currently have given that renaming tabs is trivial, and at the end of the day I can locally tweak my strings file to change it if I don't like what it says :lol:

(Just wanted to say, regardless of what 3D Coat 3 ultimately looks like, as a exercise in UI design this is really fun!)

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Also, what you've done moving colour, depth and spec into one group is more compact, but I think should be highlighted as an example of the flexibility of tab panels - not assumed to a permanent default. Not saying people will necessarily make that assumption though! :drinks:

EDIT: An we have an 'object list' already - that would probably best be a tab docked in with the layers. I hope that panel can dynamically switch between voxel subtools and regular meshes.

EDIT2: Shouldn't "DP Paint" be called "3D Paint" -- it fits better with the 2D Paint tab (which could be bumped across to be immeditately the right of 3d paint), and I'm actualy not sure what DP stands for - or whether it would translate well to other languages.

EDIT3: I've just had a better idea: that if this new "e-panel + radius, etc." / "Brush Settings" panel was unique and omnipresent - like the color, spec, etc. panels are - perhaps that would make more sense, and allow these settings to be done once by Andrew and not replicated in a number of slightly different ways for each tool. It's certainly going to be needed for Voxel mode anyway as you use some of those for cutting holes in your sculpt, etc. You've also got think of the future where we need things like the color panel, etc. for direct voxel painting.

David,

thanks for the reply and constructive C&C they are extremely welcome and helpful!

Moving color, specular, and depth into one panel is just my default layout, of course people can undock then and move then around that's the beauty of docking :) Plus i dont usually access all three at a single moment, i typically work on one channel at a time.

I agree about the DP, most outside probably wont know what DP stands fore, going with a generic "3D Paint" kinda fits will into the current scheme plus its more universal. I'll make that change tomorrow.

Man i totally forgot about the object list for the voxel sculpting mode. The scene list i had in mind was just a scene graph(tree view) but i can create a custom "layer" panel for the voxel sculpt mode..because i dont want to group it with the main scene graph since it wasn't design for layer operation. Thanks for bringing that up.

I'm actually against making the e-panel option its own panel because as you pointed out it does have its place with the brush/spray tool. In voxel mode if a tool has cutting ability the options will pop up and you can use it to cut holes and what not. I dunno i guess i against having lots of panels, trying to reduce things that i can do without even if it means replicating the code. In anycase, Andrew already mention he is going to make a separate panel for the e-panel options. :)

Yeah, I assumed the split would be to the level of Polygon / Voxel -- with the poly mode having both Import per-pixel and Import micro-vertex like we have now -- meaning the tab has to reflect the union of the two.

Heh, I guess to be future proof the tab should be 'Polygon Paint' allowing for Voxel painting -- but it's probably prudent to stick with the features we currently have given that renaming tabs is trivial, and at the end of the day I can locally tweak my strings file to change it if I don't like what it says :lol:

(Just wanted to say, regardless of what 3D Coat 3 ultimately looks like, as a exercise in UI design this is really fun!)

You guys bring up a good point, but i think 3D paint will still work for any method(DP,Voxel direct painting,micro vert painting) i can always change the DP Tool to Paint Tools and add a sub-menu for specific tools if its needed(like specific tools for voxel direct painting, assuming the DP tool dont work on voxel).

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I've been watching this thread for a while and seeing some good and some not so good ideas.

I think some interfaces to look at are Photoshop (discussed), Mudbox (discussed) and Cinema 4D. They are pretty simple and self explanatory.

I have not looked at the latest betas for v3 in a very long time, but Voxels are a whole new thing and I don't think abbreviations for new things are a good idea and I see that in some of the designs.

Also, I think specific workflows need to be addressed. After you create a voxel sculpt, what's the next step? For displacement painting, you bring in a model, paint (maybe not just displacement) and then what? I think there could be different work spaces for different workflows. Right now, I think it's still a bit confusing where I'm supposed to find things in the interface.

I hope someone is working on a manual at the same time. There's LOTS of things that I think need to be explained as to what they are and what their purpose is.

And the radial menu thing. What other apps have that? C4D has something similar to Maya's hotbox, so I doubt that's trademarked or anything and people are probably used to that. Although rarely use it.

That's my two cents for now...

Robert

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Also, I think specific workflows need to be addressed. After you create a voxel sculpt, what's the next step? For displacement painting, you bring in a model, paint (maybe not just displacement) and then what?

Then what? Then you're done, that's all 3DC does. Sculpt, paint, then move on to your game or other 3D app, or whatever else you plan to do with the model.

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I know that. I was referring to possibly making different workflow set ups.

If I want to use the Voxel sculpting workflow, my interface reflects that. If I want to use the import model, paint, export method the interface reflects THAT.

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One thing I like about Lightwave CORE's new UI is that it's cleaner and the entire look is contiguos/unified. Having a mess of icons and bright and boxy looking sliders will mess that up. You know how you go to the grocery store and you guess how much it's going to cost...then when it gets rung up, it turns out to be more than you thought? That's because all the little things add up. Same goes with UI design. A lot of minor elements "sticking out" adds up to an ugly, unprofessional design. Every division between tabs, buttons and modules/rollouts needs to be subtle so that the UI as a whole looks very clean and uniform=easy on the eyes.

That's one thing I absolutely LOVE about Combustion (compositing application), it's context sensitive instead of trying to jam a million controls into a single UI (like After Effects), and instead of a mess of protruding sliders, you simply drag your mouse in the corresponding control box, left to right, and see some visual representation of the level changes. See the attached example of it and Houdini's UI (sliders using essentially the same concept). While Houdini does have too many icons for my own personal taste, the rest of the UI is clean and elegant. Whoever is working on the final UI designs really ought to take some notes (don't have to make it a carbon copy, but if something is done right, no reason you can't follow its example to some degree. Subtle divisions and elements=clean and comfortable-looking UI.

Here's a link to see Houdini's UI:

http://download.sidefx.com/images/stories/...yrofx_intro.mov

Look at Matt's LWvX designs...notice the subtlety throughout:

http://www.creactive-design.co.uk/lightwave_vx/

http://www.creactive-design.co.uk/lightwav...ject/after.html

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Speaking of LW CORE GUI. I know for a fact that writing GUI takes alot of time and effort Andrew should give Qt a chance(Mudbox/LW Core uses it).

http://www.qtsoftware.com/

I know that. I was referring to possibly making different workflow set ups.

If I want to use the Voxel sculpting workflow, my interface reflects that. If I want to use the import model, paint, export method the interface reflects THAT.

Okie say you want to work in Voxel Sculpting, how will the interface reflect that? beside having only the tools relevant to VS and what not..is there anything else that can be done?

@parel, i would love to see a more square logo, i think most 3D app icon are square-ish.

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I suggested Qt when I first heard Core was using it. Andrew said he was happy with the system he's using.

Yeah but he probably wrote his own GUI code...now imagine if he had to create something like Shadow's or my mock-up, he would have to write alot of new code. Why re-invent the wheel Qt is cross platform(Mac,PC,Linux, coffee machine) and highly customizable even for non programmer. I think there is a free version of Qt also. He had a technical question about Qt, but i cant find the exact question(tried searching for it). i would like to send his question to the Qt guys.

Phil, now that i have your ear what exact do you want to see ina global render setting, what kind of options? I'm going to get started on the mock-up right now!

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As for render options I'm happy with what we have. All I ask is for a way to keep the window open and a way to save a still without taking a screenshot or messing with the animated render. While you've got my ear don't do anything to it, I'd like it back in one piece.

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Okie say you want to work in Voxel Sculpting, how will the interface reflect that? beside having only the tools relevant to VS and what not..is there anything else that can be done?

Well to tell you the truth, I'm not sure! There's been a lot of development on the software since I've been in it last and I guess if there were a detailed manual to go along with it, the interface wouldn't look so "foreign".

I think Andrew should start making more comments before everyone starts going too far with interfaces and logo changes.

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Well to tell you the truth, I'm not sure! There's been a lot of development on the software since I've been in it last and I guess if there were a detailed manual to go along with it, the interface wouldn't look so "foreign".

I think Andrew should start making more comments before everyone starts going too far with interfaces and logo changes.

Yes, I agree with you. Since he is the person to have the last word on everything related to 3DC.

Logo / UI changes......

However, never the less, I think that if Andrew does want a new logo, then it should be launched with V.3 as a overall revamp system and compete seriously in the market. The reason I insist so much in changing the logo, despite the reasons I have already mentioned previously, once 3DC v.3 is launched, it will never look back again and it would be a smart idea to start market its logo as well. (that if Andrew wants a new one).

There are plenty of people here willing to do it and best of all, for free, such as with the UI.

Last but not least....... people........... DON'T UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF A LOGO !!! You don't need a phd to come to this conclusion.

The sooner the better, trust me in this.

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Should i take a slightly different route with my GUI mock up and use Qt Creator instead of Photoshop?:

time to brush up on my C++... -_-

@bobzilla, its not that bad. there are things in voxel mode that seems out of place , and could be better integrated with its workflow.

@phil, no worries. i totally forgot about the rendering stuff, because its so obscurely place in the UI.

@CGI, make some sculpting tool icons Andrew does need them, take inspiration from ZBrush/Mudbox.

edit: just looked at the Qt demo and examples and was blown away its really powerful framework!

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One more concept and I am done

I have to be honest, this is a unprofessional logo.

That font is too old, it was largely used in the end of the 90's, and that splat will not be easily reproducible when small.

Please Andrew, in the case you will consider to change the logo, ask to a certificate graphic studio.

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I was going to save this because it's not really a big deal, but since the mac bar image was posted... The icon for 3DC doesn't display transparency correctly, at least not in the Vista Quick Launch bar. On the Task Bar it seems fine.

Quicklaunch.jpg

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