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So nice,your advice is so useful,thank you!

Hi, please reply to me why it's useful to you and what you've done with this info. Unfortunately, your post and profile reek of spammer. Prove otherwise. :)

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Would kill for pie menus like in modo. So fast. Custom pie menus please.

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@Andrew Shpagin thanks for that info about the seams splitting in PPP with displacement is only a visual preview (I hope can improve)

but I was wondering if you can add hybridizing the paint room with a few "basic" sculpt tools like add, subtract and smooth to influence the original topology. Reason: Sometimes when painting the heightmap style displacement you can't get proper even texture displacement because the topology is unexpectedly too dense in one area and causes the displacement to bunch up.. or is expanded not being dense enough so by expanding the topology we would be able to see the texture expand to more of the texture's correct aspect ratio.  Not only that it can help create ideal dimensions overall. 

Perhaps the tweak room and paint room combined.  The tweak tools by default could be locked and if unlocked a different color and text overlay "changing original mesh" could float with the brush or be a message at the top of the room.  I'd like to be able to quickly make changes and see improvements for the displacement painting. 

Edited by Ascensi
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5 hours ago, Ascensi said:

@Andrew Shpagin thanks for that info about the seams splitting in PPP with displacement is only a visual preview (I hope can improve)

but I was wondering if you can add hybridizing the paint room with a few "basic" sculpt tools like add, subtract and smooth to influence the original topology. Reason: Sometimes when painting the heightmap style displacement you can't get proper even texture displacement because the topology is unexpectedly too dense in one area and causes the displacement to bunch up.. or is expanded not being dense enough so by expanding the topology we would be able to see the texture expand to more of the texture's correct aspect ratio.  Not only that it can help create ideal dimensions overall. 

Perhaps the tweak room and paint room combined.  The tweak tools by default could be locked and if unlocked a different color and text overlay "changing original mesh" could float with the brush or be a message at the top of the room.  I'd like to be able to quickly make changes and see improvements for the displacement painting. 

I think the best solution is to now move the Paint tools to the Sculpt Room, with a Toggle for the Paint tools directly to the right of the Button Display Toggle at the very top of the Tool Panel. Merge the Retopo and Paint Meshes,  so they are one and the same.

This might take a lot of coding work, but it will prove to be incredibly beneficial, as it consolidates the "Rooms." No more Paint or Tweak room. Just Sculpt/Paint, Topo and UV  

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@Oleg_Shapo  Tweak's room will be hidden soon. All functions will be transferred to the Sculpt room.

source...

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1 hour ago, AbnRanger said:

I think the best solution is to now move the Paint tools to the Sculpt Room, with a Toggle for the Paint tools directly to the right of the Button Display Toggle at the very top of the Tool Panel. Merge the Retopo and Paint Meshes,  so they are one and the same.

This might take a lot of coding work, but it will prove to be incredibly beneficial, as it consolidates the "Rooms." No more Paint or Tweak room. Just Sculpt/Paint, Topo and UV  

I hope sculpt-retopo-paint meshes remain separate !

 

Edited by Silas Merlin

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44 minutes ago, AbnRanger said:

I think the best solution is to now move the Paint tools to the Sculpt Room, with a Toggle for the Paint tools directly to the right of the Button Display Toggle at the very top of the Tool Panel. Merge the Retopo and Paint Meshes,  so they are one and the same.

This might take a lot of coding work, but it will prove to be incredibly beneficial, as it consolidates the "Rooms." No more Paint or Tweak room. Just Sculpt/Paint, Topo and UV  

I'd partially agree although not all sculpt brushes/tools will be beneficial/safe... it might be  intuitive to ether keep rooms apart with sculpting tools that are  compatible or merge the rooms together with color coded panels/tools that are compatible/safe with specific workflows like PPP but can be unlocked if the individual knows what they're doing.  So for example all the tools in the paint room are a particular color and then some of the tools normally found in the sculpt room that are compatible have the same color.

 

@Silas Merlin If Combined it should have  sculpt layers and paint layers separate also color coded. Working in Zbrush I do all the same kind of work within one room and is not difficult to manage & make copies.. color coding and duplication (offline/non visible) would be good almost like saving an entire project. 

Edited by Ascensi

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53 minutes ago, Ascensi said:

 If Combined it should have  sculpt layers and paint layers separate also color coded. Working in Zbrush I do all the same kind of work within one room and is not difficult to manage & make copies.. color coding and duplication (offline/non visible) would be good almost like saving an entire project. 

Can't please everyone I guess...
What is logical to you would be extremely confusing to me.
The only thing that is currently hidden like this in 3dCoat I think is when you bake with subdivisions and get both a mid-poly and low-poly which are both paint mesh and only one visible at a time. That confuses me very much.
if it were the same throughout all the rooms my head would explode and I would go back to Sculptris where I came from I think.

I mean, it is good that there are different software with totally different way of doing things.
That way, everyone has a chance to find a software that suits them.

Change the fundamental principles behind a software... and you get a different software.... for different kind of people

Edited by Silas Merlin

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4 hours ago, AbnRanger said:

I think the best solution is to now move the Paint tools to the Sculpt Room, with a Toggle for the Paint tools directly to the right of the Button Display Toggle at the very top of the Tool Panel. Merge the Retopo and Paint Meshes,  so they are one and the same.

This might take a lot of coding work, but it will prove to be incredibly beneficial, as it consolidates the "Rooms." No more Paint or Tweak room. Just Sculpt/Paint, Topo and UV

I completely agree with you and I would very much like that to happen. Even though I'm not a programmer, I think this could be very positive in terms of improving the performance of the program as a whole.

The most important thing is that with a possible merger of the Rooms, simplifying the program (this does not mean that the program would no longer be powerful), the artists could easily understand what exactly is happening with Geometry (mesh) and perhaps make it even easier to the Developers future implementations of tools, commands, features and other things precisely for the reason of this fusion of Rooms.

For new users there would be no more doubts in the program's workflow (it would be much more intuitive) and thus there would be no more questions of "why does the mesh appear in a certain Room and in the other Room there is nothing?".

I respect the opinions of all the artists and users of the program, but I need to say that, of course, for users who already have knowledge about 3D-Coat and perhaps have mastered it, this does not seem to be a problem of how 3D-Coat works today.
In my own experience, when I tried to learn 3D-Coat many, many years ago, I sincerely almost gave up on 3D-Coat.
Thank God I didn't give up, but I went through a lot of difficulties to understand the program.
And if I went through it, I wonder how many artists who went through the same problems as me and who unfortunately ended up choosing to give up 3D-Coat and chose to use other competing programs because of all these difficulties.

The unification of Rooms, in my opinion, would be very important, as it would make the program much more intuitive, simplified, objective and would allow artists to use different techniques and workflows using most of the time the same geometry.
This would be essential for more artists to migrate to 3D-Coat and use it with great success.

For example, if users love that 3D-Coat is separated into "Rooms", the solution would be simple for that. The developers would allow users to create customized interfaces according to the task (use) and thus create their own customized Rooms (Custom Rooms). However, the main Rooms would still be separated, for example:
- Possibility 1:
Sculpt / Paint/ Tweak Room + Retopo Room + UVs Room + Render Room.
or
- Possibility 2:
Sculpt / Paint / Tweak / Retopo (Modeling) Room + UVs Room + Render Room.

I know it wouldn't be an easy process to do (program codes), but it would be possible and very important.

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Everyone seems to agree that Zbrush has a peculiar, outlandish way of doing things. yet... the software has become some sort of standard.
 

Knowing this, why do you feel that 3d-Coat has to be stripped of its own peculiarities ?

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Honestly, I didn't understand what ZBrush has to do with possible mergers of Rooms within 3D-Coat.

Don't get me wrong, but I think you are using your private opinion regarding ZBrush.
I'm not here to defend Pixologic, but not everyone would agree with what you said.
If Zbrush became the "standard", it was no accident that this happened. Pixologic has its own merits for this.
If there is anything that bothers people at ZBrush I don't know.
Perhaps this is the least of the problems for these people, as these people have not stopped using Zbrush and still continue to use ZBrush.... And what matters in the end, and most importantly, is that the program delivers the results that these people want.

I believe I was able to explain the reasons for my opinion in my previous message.
I have been using 3D-Coat for many years, which is my main program, but it is not for that reason that I will not comment on the points that are not so positive about the program.

If changes happen, 3D-Coat will not stop being 3D-Coat, especially if such changes serve to improve and make 3D-Coat become even more unique.

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On 7/31/2020 at 1:17 PM, AbnRanger said:

I think the best solution is to now move the Paint tools to the Sculpt Room, with a Toggle for the Paint tools directly to the right of the Button Display Toggle at the very top of the Tool Panel. Merge the Retopo and Paint Meshes,  so they are one and the same.

This might take a lot of coding work, but it will prove to be incredibly beneficial, as it consolidates the "Rooms." No more Paint or Tweak room. Just Sculpt/Paint, Topo and UV  

Please be careful with changing the fundamental rooms - especially the Paint Room -  a lot of us don't sculpt at all, and just paint, UV, & Retopo. (and by a lot of us I mean me).

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20 hours ago, Carlosan said:

-_- Don't think about the interface, think about the workflow.

The interface is the path that leads us to use the tools for different tasks in the fastest and easiest way possible.

I agree with this.  Too many people offering interface suggestions for the rooms are only thinking of their own sculpting preference.  Workflow for game content that doesn't START in 3DC or doesn't START from a sculpt suffers in these situations.

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I haven't' read all the suggestions here.  But I have a suggestion for the Panel docking and HIDING.    Sometimes when I'm on my laptop 3DCoat panels are a bit of a pain to fit everything on a 2560x1440 13" screen. 

Tear Away panels from 3DC are nice - but only help if you have a lot of monitor space or a second monitor. 

The tabbed interface for the panels is fine but they are hard to manage. Affinity Photo has similar panels to photoshop and 3DC - but it handles the ton of panels and docking of them slightly better. 

You can DOUBLE CLICK on the tab name to hide it and click it once to show it.  It makes it very awesome for quickly focusing on what tools you need.  For example in 3DC I sometimes want to just see my huge layer list but because of 3DC font size and default layout with brushes and Smart Materials etc taking over the height, I can only see a few rows of my layers.  THIS IS QUICK WIN to add this.  See this video of  Affinity Photo panels being hidden and shown via double click and click:

 

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On 8/1/2020 at 1:03 PM, Carlosan said:

-_- Don't think about the interface, think about the workflow.

The interface is the path that leads us to use the tools for different tasks in the fastest and easiest way possible.

This is the ideal user scenario, but the wrong method while discussing the tool. Think about a hammer. When you want to put some nails into something you don't want to think about the hammer. But if you are creating or working on a hammer, you should carefully consider its balance and weight, the curves in the handle, the hardness of the steel, the curvature of the edge of the striking face, and so on. And that is what this discussion is. 3dcoat is a great program, but Pilgway are not great interface or tool designers.

As a small example, when doing Retopo, it would be useful to hide parts of the sculpt for better access. But the voxhide tool is only available in the sculpt room. So there's an annoying few extra clicks just to change the visibility of what I'm working on. This hammer has a weird shaped handle and I feel like there's a lot of community pressure into not talking about it.

Edited by Innovine

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Exactly, i agree with you.

 

There are 3 design areas.

- Rooms or workspaces, which contain the tools to perform the tasks.

- The tools themselves, which are created according to the tasks to be carried out and,

- how those workspaces are interconnected to allow the fluidity of work in the different comings and goings of the final product.


Above all, the design must respect future expansions and developments of the software, since as we know, the process of digital creation is always changing when new solutions appear.

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On 7/31/2020 at 10:53 PM, Silas Merlin said:

Everyone seems to agree that Zbrush has a peculiar, outlandish way of doing things. yet... the software has become some sort of standard.
 

Knowing this, why do you feel that 3d-Coat has to be stripped of its own peculiarities ?

I originally started off with the concept of adding sculpt brush to the paint room to fix displacement issues on the spot where areas of topology resolution  is either too dense or not dense enough and will cause the texture/displacement to either shrink or expand drastically.. from there my responses suggested just to move the painting tools into the sculpt room.. and I said if that were to happen that tools should ideally be color coded to be intuitive showing compatibility with other compatible tools to prevent corrupting/damaging the project to keep consistent solid workflow. My original suggestion was just about a small change...lol  -Just a sculpt brush to add volume or subtract it and add smoothing brush in the paint room.  I need the ability to see on the spot the changes rather than sending the model over to the sculpt room and back.. My project is slow enough with subdivisions and painting with 8k, i'd like to avoid crashes.  I'm not suggesting that 3DCoat start looking or behaving like Zbrush.. I think all developers find their own way but often either come to the same conclusions or build ideas/tools of each other's successes.

Edited by Ascensi

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I am still want move tool in 2 axis like in other 3d apps. And maybe remove axis at all, for example leave just planes(two axis), and with holding shift you move in one axis

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On 7/31/2020 at 6:53 PM, Silas Merlin said:

Everyone seems to agree that Zbrush has a peculiar, outlandish way of doing things. yet... the software has become some sort of standard.
 

Knowing this, why do you feel that 3d-Coat has to be stripped of its own peculiarities ?

Zbrush is peculiar indeed and it breaks some interface standards that we come to expect however its also quite efficient in its design. When you mix efficiency with the fact that it really has no equal competition, naturally they can get away it.

Unfortunately 3D Coat is not in the same position. It has direct competition. When you mix that competition with some inefficient design components, it really does not have the luxury to be too comfortable with its "peculiarities".

I think what this comes down to for 3D Coat is improving efficiency by reducing convoluted design components and remove unnecessary fragmentation, all while positioning itself to compete strongly for one more areas (sculpting, painting, retopology and UV editing).

Take a look what Marmoset Toolbag did. At first it carved out its place in the pipeline by offering a good means to preview and present game assets, however as viewports in DCC apps improved, and accessibility to game engines rose, they had to in turn find a way to still remain unique and relevant. Now instead of just being a preview application, it sells itself as being the ultimate tool for baking via an intuitive easy to use interface. Just for that alone users are shelling out close to $200.

As the competition changes, 3D dcc applications get better, with more functionality that overlaps with 3D Coat's niche, 3DC has to find a way to react to those changes. Interface simplification and consolidation would help quite a bit, along with some strong features that really set it apart in an easy to use manner.

 

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In retopo room The strokes "special" (contextual) tools appear far too low on the left tool bar, I never noticed them, for years until someone pointed them out to me.

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I have no problem with the concept of "rooms" - I just wish my imported object would stop disappearing depending upon which room I'm in.

Why I'm in here today though is to make a suggestion. And that is for the list of "brushes" to be scroll-able thank you. Spent the better part of my available time today installing a number of new brushes, etc. Only to find that I then had to uninstall them in order to use the program. They would not scroll so could not see all the options available, let alone the brushes to select.

And yes, I even tried undocking the Brushes panel ... put it up top ... where upon I discovered that if one opened a folder "full" of brushes, that overlapped the [getting rather small] workspace. I could neither select a brush nor work on the object. And no I could not resize either panel on the horizontal ... the overlap invalidated many such options.

Also: For installing new images that are supposed to be good for making brushes, I am curious as to why some .psd files will load/install and work, and other .psd files not only don't load/install into the program - they cause the program to crash. It crashed several times today over .psd files.

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On 8/3/2020 at 1:10 PM, Carlosan said:

... to allow the fluidity of work in the different comings and goings of the final product.


Above all, the design must respect future expansions and developments of the software, since as we know, the process of digital creation is always changing when new solutions appear.

 

Fluidity is not a word I'd use in connection with the UI for the new curves tool.

Please redesign it, cos its horrible.

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Maybe merge the UV room and Retopo room and call it something else ?

People go to the uv room to do uv work and they don't have all the tools they need there....

This merged room should have somewhere big and visible a toggle for working either on retopo mesh or paint mesh.
When you toggle, the irrelevant tools are greyed out. (greyed out, not vanished, because that contributes to confusion imho).

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