How set your scene scale (and voxel count per unit) correctly?

[tokikake]

So I often test scene scale, or voxel per units, with measurement tool , and 3d grid,

I really do not know, how each value actually linked.To be frankly said, it somehow broken each other, with the word meaning,,

Could someone teach me, what I do wrong,, with foolow my steps, if you can,,, (I really hope to know why it not work)

I hope to set unit as 1 meter, in all 3d coat scene. so to sculpt 1meter mesh,, I may need voxel per "I meter", at least 1000 volexl.

Then 3d coat offer menu, to set Voxels per units. and Units

I set Units = Meters

Voxesl Per Unit = 1000

UnitScale = 1.0

like thiese pic..

 

 

2, next I set 3d grid as custom .  I only add one grid, with 1 subd, so it generate 4 grid plane.  Without 3d coat auto change unit, I suppose

it should generate 1 meter Grid. (because I set Unit as 1 meter).  

3. Finally I hope to confirm 3d grid and scene scale work correctly,, then use measurement tool.  measurement tool offer units for measurement

then I set it as  meter (but it is not matter I suppose,,) anyway I suppose (almost believe)  3d grid should be 1 meter.

But 3d coat tell me,, current grid size = 1000 meter  in 3d coat scene world. ^^;

So I suppose,, the voxel count per units, seems auto change measurement or grid units?

But it should not change it... per units means,, I may see voxels in each units,, right? why it change grid units, or it cahnge measurement tools?

Though I can avoid this issue, to set voxels per units as 1.. but it is not usable ,, I can only get 1 voxels per 1 meter,, untill add resolution..it is joke I feel.

To see how current scene set, we need to use grid and measurement tool..

so if it not work correctly,, I can not confirm,  how current scene unit work for each mesh in scene. Please correct this old problem as true meaning,,

Or if the voxel per units have different meaning,, tell me please.

 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2020 by tokikake

[tokikake]

And I think, measure units of measurement tool  should not change real size of object. 

Now I have 30cm cube..

so if I change measure units, cm to meter, it may show as 0.3 meter

then if I change measure unit, cm to mm, it may show as 300 mm.

As you know, real size never change in any world. without you change each units size.

So if user did not add any addtional scale, (scene scale),, each object should not change real size.

I believe, the measure units meaning,, how it replesent as letter (units).  but 3d coat actually change real size of mesh at leas when we measure the object.

So 3d coat change  30 cm cube to 30 m cube, or 30 mm cube, when change "measure units"

all wrold seems change when I only change measure units, but measure units is not gravity ^^;  please understand this problem.

it should not change by each apricaiton .   

 

[tokikake]

I think, those property which user defined should represent,,

 

Aprication unit = It replesent, how 1 units represent in the aprication. 

So if Apricaiton unit = 1M,  it means the aprication use 1meter for all scene Units. 

Then I know sometime it is not useful,, eg for brush size etc,, so basically we change default brush size or add special scale, for each tool.  So I hope if 3d coat can change brush size,with 1 cm step, or 1 mm step, with mouse,, not hope it may change with 1 meter units.

Voxel count per unit  = how many voxels will appear in each units (1 direction)

So If user set 100 it means,, 3d coat generate 100 voxel in 1 units.  (1 direction) . it should not relate any other tool.. I do not know why it effect other tool setting. just generate the input value voxels for each 1 units. it is all what I hope.

Measurement units =  it is simply which units (like cm, or meter,, or mm, or feet  , "Sun"  etc),,  we use to measure size (length)

 if I set it as I meter, the tool represent length as "Meter",  if I use "Cm"  it represent length as "Cm" , it should not effect real length in 3d world.  if user hope to change real size in 3d world, The user should use "unit scale" (it change one unit length)  or "scene scale"  (it  change world scale as true meaning) 

 Changing real size, with measurement units,  is totally nonsense, and offer more confusion. There seems almost no merit.   If measurement tool change 1 unit size as it like,, it is wrong tool.  Can not use for measure size. We learn how to represent length with each Unit (cm, meter, km), 

so 100M = 10000cm,,  or 0.1Meter = 100mm,   

When we get measurement tool,, they never change real length. only change length of each units.  If 3d coat not keep rule,, it seems break our common sense I feel. Then it may make more difficult to new user choose 3d coat .

[digman]

First set the scene scale under "Edit Scene Scale to 100. This will give you real world scale. I save a blank 3DC file with these settings to load up whenever I want real world scale.  I make one 3DC file for each measurement unit. Load the one I want to use. This way I start out with a clean scene.

Example a one meter cube will export as a one meter cube say to blender if you have set up your measurement units to meters.

Before starting your work, set scene scale and set the your measurement units.  

Now here is the problem which you are facing.

When you change measurement units when using the measure tool from the left tool panel, It auto changes the measurements of the entire scene. 

Example which you gave already. A one meter cube is now a 1.0 cm cube.

I agreed it would be better for the measure tool not to auto change the measurement units of the entire scene.

It could be that underneath the hood, how 3DC is programmed that the scene measurement has to change. I do not know.

Setting scene scale to 100 which will not be changed at least keeps you in real world scale. 

You have to decide which measurement units you want to work in and not change it when using the measuring tool. 

Example:

Scene Scale to 100

Measurement units to CM.  Do not change this in the measuring tool, keep it at cm.

Voxels units and voxel unit scale, I have not figured this one out yet but I have not asked the development team to better explain it to me. I keep it at default for all scenes.

You at anytime can make a feature request for the measuring tool.

[tokikake]

3 minutes ago, digman said:

First set the scene scale under "Edit Scene Scale to 100. This will give you real world scale.

So if 3d coat work so  I think, it means Scene scale 100 = 100% ^^;?   If so I seriously think  3d coat  may better  discribed as "%"  in the long desirciption of tool.

(of course  I really apreciate, you have helped me a lot , even though you do not remember,,then it is not complain about your advice,,)

Then  I set the measurement units as 1 meter,

But I need more voxel count for per 1 meter, then how you set voxel count ? Or if it related the Scene scale too ? (so set scene scale, It auto generate 100 multiple voxel in 1 meter?)

At same time,, I can understand you discribed way is correct  to work with "meter" in 3d coat... So I follow your advice. ^^;  

(But I can not stop to request  3d coat change current way ^^;  The more I think about 3d coat units, measurement tool  etc, the more I feel nervous ^^;

Because everytime I try to import some mesh from another apricaiton,,(which use each apricaiton unit ), without scene snap,, I need to move around camera to serch the item..

Then when I use measurement tool, with show 3d grid, it show un-expected size, as visible.  It make me nervous.

[digman]

I can not help you on the voxels part. Sorry. You could send Andrew an e-mail asking him to explain more in depth. I had a Freeform user try to figure it out in 3DC but he said it does not work as expected like it does in Freeform. 

Please make your feature request. That is how 3DC has been improved down through the years.  Is 3DC a perfect program, no but like any 3D application it has strong areas and some weak areas.  

A tip:

I generally set up and save separate clean 3DC files for different measurement units but all scenes are set to scene scale at 100. 

I will load the measurement unit 3DC file that I need first.

Example:

I am working in Blender at CM units. 

I load the CM 3DC file. Next export from blender the model.  Then import it into 3DC. It will not come in tiny unless you have made it really, really small in real world CM.

Also if you need to increase the voxel  resolution of the model when importing for voxel mode without increasing/ scaling up in the viewport, then increase the voxel resolution before applying the import. See the picture. The icon is for increasing the voxel resolution of the layer. Surface mode you can do the same or import as is. You can use flat subdivision clicking a few times if you want to increase the polygon count in surface mode before importing. I also use a flat shader to avoid the rounded shading that 3DC has if I am not using flat subdivision before importing.  This is no different than in blender where you choose flat shading except in 3DC you use a shader instead.

FYI .I am just like you a regular user of 3DC, helping out when I can, a volunteer. A decision I made to help out when my knowledge of 3DC will help another user.  My advice does not mean that 3DC can not be improved but we have to work with what  the program is at the current time. Again make a feature request, I agreed with your request. Measurement tool not be tied to changing the scene measurement units. 

Example:

A 1 meter cube would measure as 200 cm when changing the measurement units to CM in the measuring tool.

Two pictures. 

One showing the size of a 40 cm cube in the viewport when I have set the measurement units to cm and scene scale at 100.

Next showing the increase voxel resolution icon.

 

 

Edited September 17, 2020 by digman
more information.

[tokikake]

@digman

Thanks you guide usage. Then why I discribe it again, I felt it is good time, to gather other user feed back about this issue. 

(Though I write as if there is noway to solve it,, but actually we can manage it by our original way.. I suppose your way is one to avoid this issue then concentrate your work.

And of course even though I can not offer good art , as hobby user, I really like this apricaiton and the way to development and servides. so do not intend to say bad about apricaiton .

 Then as you said,  I plan to send futrture request again. (it is not new problem, so I had offered almost same request, 2times in mantis, and i remember we have talked about this issue in forum before.  Then I understand your work-flow too.  

A few years ago (maybe), I aleady ask Andrew, about this issue, then he quickly improved but at that time I do not gather all infomation but mainly ask please keep setting once user set about scene scale etc.. So I think it is improved.  But about measurement tool gitch and how  set voxel dencity (of course it is default value,, but I hope to use reasonable density as default,

I know I can increase density when import, with scale or use the icon , or menu ^^;)

Then  , I really hope to know other user how think about this issue. Or I can not confirm,, if my thinking (I disciribed above,, how each property should be (I think it is reasonable for me)is not good for others.. I think if we gather view as user, and send clear report 3d coat team and Andrew easy solve this long span issue.  Untill final release 3d coat 5.

And I hope to see , all user easy understand, how scale setting work (with Grid, voxel default dencity, measurement tool,  correspond with our import mesh units, scene units,

I think, it is not problem related with one tool or one property,, those property (scene scale, measurement scale, voxel dencity, and grid number setting related complex way)

So I hope to get well tuned user view, how it should be improved... (then I may send final request about this issue in mantis, or send direct mail to Andrew,,)

If it may break forum rule,, I apologize,, (I may not add new thing about this topic,, but hope to know, how other user think about this issue (and what they expect) , so I think dev team can imporve 3d coat with clear user support.. (or even though I content with ,, it may not work for others, I afraid)

[tokikake]

I finally find better way (not best, becaue I do not think 3d coat words usage about each property is reasonable,,)  to set unit and voxel counts as I need.

eg 

Now I hope to set 1 unit = 1 meter. for 3d coat.    then it is not reasoanble for me, but 

3d coat measurement unit  means, actually  aprication 1 unit length.   

so if I change 3d coat aprication unit as 1 cm, or 1 mm,, it means 3d coat change measurement unit. (of measure tool too)

And  it is strange for me but,, if I hope to set voxel 1000 for 1 units ,with keep the length of the 1 unit, (my setting = meter)

I need to set same value for  Unit scale.  About this case, I need to set 1000 for Unit scale.

 

 Then grid size show Unit length correctly. with use measure tool. and when I import model which exported from 1 meter units world, it show correctly. 

like this

if you hope to use 100 as voxel per units, you need to set 100 for Unit scale. (it is strange but actually 3d coat need it to keep 1 grid length) 

But as I said,   3d coat can not change mesaure unit as real meaning, eg when   I measure small mesh,, like  1.35 cm etc,, 

  I hope to see the length as  cm not Meter (my current unit length)  .   

 other aprication can change  measure "unit", without change length,  like  "0.0135  meter "   to 1.35 cm.. or if I set mesaure units as mm,, it may shown as 13.5 mm 

But 3d coat do not offer way to change mesaurement units, but change real 1 unit length, so I can not change Meter to cm to measure length. (or it show wrong length because,, it change 1 unit length too.

(About this case I keep scene scale as 1.00 ( I suppose digman way is actually multipe 100 for scene scale,  to adjust for cm)

Edited September 25, 2020 by tokikake

[digman]

I added a feature request that the measurement tool does not auto change the Scene Define Measurement Units when changing to different measuring standards for indeed that is what is does.

A 2 meter cube would measure 200 cm if you changed to cm measurements. 

[tokikake]

7 minutes ago, digman said:

I added a feature request that the measurement tool does not auto change the Scene Define Measurement Units when changing to different measuring standards for indeed that is what is does.

A 2 meter cube would measure 200 cm if you changed to cm measurements. 

Yes Thanks. I still do not know why 3d coat link  voxel counts for per unit with Measurement unit ( 3d coat means aprication unit) .

Though I understand, 3d coat actually discribe menu as  "Define mesurement units" to set those property, (so unit = measurement units) 

  but I do not suppose it is related with  measaure tool unit ^^; 

I suppose,, I can use Scene scale, as you did to reproduce same procedure. I think change unit scale is somehow strange,, but if it is correct manner for 3d coat, I follow the rule.

[Carlosan]

Hope it help