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Bunnywabbit

Black lines when painting color with Custom alpha brushes

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Okay, I'm going Insane here. I just got the 3dCoat free trial to learn stylized texture painting, but every single custom brush I make, creates black lines around the edges. I've have looked at similar forum posts with same problem Like this but nothing has fixed it for me yet. I know the problem is with Height information, which it for some god damn reason wants to put into the brush, but I just want ONLY the alpha information since i'm only painting color and nothing else.

My Alpha creation workflow is: Open new Photoshop file (1024x1024 or 512x512) and create the alpha using white color against black layer, when I'm happy with it, I delete the black layer and export it to some folder. Next In 3Dcoat I just simply create a new brush with the "open texture file" option and pick the Alpha I created. It should be this simple right? But no, it decides to create some height information which i do not need and are unable to delete.

I might be balding because of this issue and would love some help. Thanks in advance.

(Using Version. 4.9.65)

customAlpha.png

3Dcoat - CustomAlphaBug.png

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Windows Beta Version 4.9.65

I have been doing some test to see if I can figure out the root of the dark lines in some alphas. Still testing and gathering information for a report.

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Try deleting HeighMap layer before export it.

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20 hours ago, Carlosan said:

Try deleting HeighMap layer before export it.

Tried it already, It just creates a new heightMap layer automatically after saving the file :d

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Try to save just white image with transparency to PNG and import it as brush.

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10 hours ago, Carlosan said:

Try to save just white image with transparency to PNG and import it as brush.

no luck, it just proceeds to do the same thing with the height information around the edges.

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I remember when I make new brush, I needed to make each map to work correctly.

I suppose actually your workflow may not offer zero height map. you may need to make height map with layer name too.

in your photo shop pic, there is height map layer. which color as *255 255 255 , white brush with gray back ground

. so you only need to fill with gray color  for the height layer,  then save as PSD,  import it as brush may work.

There have been you tube tutoriall how to make brush with photo shop, I am GImp user, but basically same procedure worked for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSwR4ghSLmE&ab_channel=JavisJones

I hope if 3d coat training video channell will offer new tutoriall,, how to make brush easy ,,

Edited by tokikake

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From 3d coat manuall, it discribe details

Load from PSD/TIF replaces the alpha that has been right clicked on with another image of your choice, as long as it is PSD or TIF. An Alpha must have 4 layers each corresponding with the four main channels of a brush in 3DC (as noted above, they are Color, Height/Depth, Glossiness & Erase Mask). These channels of the Alpha in detail are:

  • Color: This contains the Brush color as well as its corresponding Transparency mask. This mask affects the Glossiness Layer, as well.
  • Height/Depth effects displacement for sculpting and the height/depth with image based painting. The “zero” height of this Layer corresponds to “middle gray” or (127, 127, 127). Darker values will create valleys and lighter values will create peaks.
  • Glossiness: White represents maximum Glossiness. Black represents absolutely no Glossiness, with shades of gray representing intermediate values. The Color layer of the Alpha’s alpha transparency also determines where Glossiness painting occurs.
  • Erase Mask: This layer is used to create alphas that ignore certain values, in other layers, while painting.

If all the .TIF channels are used, they will all be imported and used according to the table below. If you only use some of the available channels, those you do import will also be used according to the table below.


1 CH: A&H
2 CH: 1 – A 2 –H
3 CH: 1, 2, 3 – RGB, 2 – A, H
4 CH: 1, 2, 3 – RGB, 4 – A, H
5 CH: 1, 2, 3 – RGB, 4 – A, 5 – H
6 CH: 1, 2, 3 – RGB, 4 – A, 5 – H, 6 – Spec
7 CH: 1, 2, 3 – RGB, 4 – A, 5 – H, 6 – Spec, 7 – Erase mask

Edit in external editor: Creates a “live” connection between 3DCoat and the external editor you have specified in the “Preferences” section. The default editor is Photoshop. Selecting this option opens the specified editor and any changes that you make and save from the editor are automatically loaded back into 3DCoat.

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1 hour ago, tokikake said:

so you only need to fill with gray color  for the height layer,  then save as PSD,  import it as brush may work.

Okay so I created a new psd file, and manually created the 4 layers needed.  I tried To make the HeightMap layer only grey (127,127,127), which supposedly should be at 0 height, but still it doesn't work and the black lines remain. I also tried leaving it completely empty (100% transparent) but that didn't do anything either. 

But thanks anyway ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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13 hours ago, Bunnywabbit said:

Okay so I created a new psd file, and manually created the 4 layers needed.  I tried To make the HeightMap layer only grey (127,127,127), which supposedly should be at 0 height, but still it doesn't work and the black lines remain. I also tried leaving it completely empty (100% transparent) but that didn't do anything either. 

But thanks anyway ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

What I recommend is, do not try to make new layer from scratch, but use "Edit in Ext editor" which you need to change.

So you can keep layer name which actually 3d coat generate. 

It may open photo-shop (which you set path in preference as 2D external editor). then you can edit each layer which you need.

I tried with GImp but I can remove height map = (color as perfect gray) without problem,. then could confirm in 3d coat, height map removed. (so do not generate any depth)

ingimp.thumb.JPG.0979a180f05685391928fbcb21ab8b18.JPG

edit and export as psd again.  you can export as different name and import it.

(or you can save as same file name, then 3d coat auto-update the pen.psd (which saved  in temp directory then it will be overwritten)

testgimp.thumb.JPG.74f220286b0c98117fa4db1fc3014140.JPG

 

Though I do not know if same procedure not work for recent photo-shop, (as I said I use only gimp for this purpose)

 

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8 hours ago, tokikake said:

What I recommend is, do not try to make new layer from scratch, but use "Edit in Ext editor" which you need to change.

That is what I've been doing also, I've tried pretty much everything now, and I'm coming to the conclusion that 3Dcoat is just broken, and its not a problem in my workflow. 

 

I even downloaded GIMP, to do exactly what you did. But nevertheless the black lines still appear, even though the Height information is at 0. So the problem isn't in photoshop or Gimp, it has to be with 3Dcoat.

2020.10.15-09.13.png

2020.10.15-09.15.png

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Though I do not hope you take more time to test,

1. I recently only use 3d coat beta version. then I do same thing and can not see problem

2.  But when I tried to make brush  from scratch, (make new height layer, etc),  I had experienced  many problem for height as same as you,  then I tried to use color picker to get newtral gray with other brush which do not show the issue for me.

Do your all bursh in 3d coat have same issue?  if it not work for your hand made brush only, I suppose there should be reason. 

when I check color in Gimp with brush (which not cause the issue) , newtral gray is not 50 

 so I use  49.8  (the color I pick from brush which do not show problem about border height)

Then if I use perfect 50 at least with GImp, I often see problem border (additional height )

I keep my current setting as Gimp file (which already make each lalyer)  then it cause no issue for me.

So I may recommend try to use color picker to get newtral gray from brush alpha which not show issue. for 3d coat. and make HeightMap.  

colorgimp2.thumb.JPG.a26adbaa8cb98f416b60993ea4769b35.JPG

then it not show unnecessary height for me.

height2.thumb.JPG.18d66259fb09a463a16667f9fc587cfe.JPG

colorgimp.JPG

Edited by tokikake
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Yes I could confirm if I use 50 for HSV (V) then fill for hegith map, it cause issue.

but if I use 49.8 as newtral it not cause issue.

I test with same psd only change height map HSV Vvalue . actually 50 not worked for me. but 49.8 is OK.

clean50.thumb.JPG.e529fd918eb4c742d8890516e3c4aa6b.JPG

So try with 49.8 (or I think you can do same thing with photo shop, ( use color picker to get height map value with brush alpha which not show the issue)  for me, ( with Gimp, 49.8 V is good for 3d coat newtral gray height)

compare.thumb.JPG.34b5bb590b0ad9135b8b72c1efc40d0a.JPG

Edited by tokikake
  • Thanks 1

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3 hours ago, tokikake said:

Yes I could confirm if I use 50 for HSV (V) then fill for hegith map, it cause issue.

but if I use 49.8 as newtral it not cause issue.

Did not work for me (surprise!),  Probably something wrong with the version I'm using. I tried everything between 49.0 - 51 V, but nothing was actually at 0 height when importing to 3DC.

The black lines did go away if I use 100% falloff, but that just makes everything smooth, so it's not perfect. 

thanks for taking time to test things, I probably just need to try another version.

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8 hours ago, Bunnywabbit said:

Did not work for me (surprise!),  Probably something wrong with the version I'm using. I tried everything between 49.0 - 51 V, but nothing was actually at 0 height when importing to 3DC.

The black lines did go away if I use 100% falloff, but that just makes everything smooth, so it's not perfect. 

thanks for taking time to test things, I probably just need to try another version.

I understand it is annoying much ,,,

yes fall of 100 percent is not good way,, (though actually I experienced same issue before,, then used it to adjust the border height, untill I could manage  newtral gray with my setting)

current my version is 4.9.65  .  if you still show same issue, I recommend up-load the alpha.. I may try to make it as PSD file in gimp, (with adjust heightt-map)

and send you. then test please.  Hope you will solove the issue.

 

 

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After read this topic again, I feel if it not matter height map but texture resolution and brush texture resolution problem?

(eg if you see it with set depth as 0, it seems not only about height map, but texture resolution of blush alpha  mesh and format I feel)

I sometimes get bad quarilty blush, and I do not hink psd 8bit is good enough to remove border perfectly, (may need blur filter)

I remember someone recommend to blur alpha to get clean smooth border. And other user told me, when I ask to make brush with png,

tiff offer more quaritly result. 

 

circle.psd

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I have been busy plus some camping outdoors... Love that part, the camping..

Blurring  your brush alpha always helps. I been doing that for a long time. Looking for a solution though now because at times you want a very sharp alpha.

From my testing.

First I create alphas using the same system that 3DC uses. The 4 layer Photoshop setup. I use Affinity though as it supports layered PSD files 

Looking at a alpha closely there are occasional black pixels on the edges when using it in 3DC. 

The issue could be how the anti-aliasing is working for the alpha. I believe anti-aliasing is used but have not asked specifically. You can clearly see the random black pixels when having a very small brush radius or in other works less pixels. The effect is lest when having a large brush radius, more pixels but still there.  Turning off texture filtering gives a good view of the black pixels too.

If the development team can work on 3DC not producing these random black pixels, then that I believe it could be a solution to the alpha black line problem or inspire a solution.

 

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1 hour ago, sprayer said:

Why can't you save only one PNG and insert in 3dcoat? It will generate all layers what it needs

https://i.imgur.com/GUXw7IL.jpg

 

You can. I only create the PSD file for testing and it is just the way I like to create my alphas most of the time. At times of course I use a a 16 bit tiff or a png and let 3DC do the internal work.

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Yes I usually use PNG , but there is limit . because only psd offer way to edit each map of blush.

I tried to edit tiff in Gimp, (because I know it offer more quarity, 16 bit color and depth) but it is really difficult to edit channell and correctly import export.

What I hope is, if there is way, only edit each map (color, height-map, etc) as png, then 3d coat auto merge as one tiff brush alpha.

(Yes I know I may need to get photo shop etc,, but I really do not like it, I can not change my mind about photo-shop ^^;)

Or do somone know workflow, to make tiff alpha with Gimp (with edit each channell correctly,,)?

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Maybe i may wrong. But you do not need many layers what 3d coat automatically creates. You can make brush with some vector shape just white on transparent background or make tiff 16bit black and white with height map, but make sure what black background is pure black. So you need only one layer for import brush

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13 hours ago, sprayer said:

Maybe i may wrong. But you do not need many layers what 3d coat automatically creates. You can make brush with some vector shape just white on transparent background or make tiff 16bit black and white with height map, but make sure what black background is pure black. So you need only one layer for import brush

I understand what you means, and it is not wrong. (actually you discribe how 3d coat manage and generate each map from one png with black background.

Then what I means, 3d coat auto generate each map when we import png. but it means we can not apply different effect for each map.

eg I often  make tear drop or sweat  alpha. though we can use one alpha png (then 3d coat auto generate hegiht map , specular, mask with alpha)

But most of case, height map need to  use different alpha.. (usually bubble or tear drop alpha only color as white for outer edge and specular part, so 3d coat simply use same alpha for height map, then if I use it,, inner part of bubble not show as upwards only edge and specular part may show upwards. 

If we edit psd or tiff, we can make height map to get  more reasonable shape which not auto-generate by alpha (color) .  Though most of case, I simply use 3d coat auto-generate alpha with improt png etc,, but edit psd (not high quarity), or tiff in editor, then make each map separately offer more flexiblity for custom use.

 

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I was talk about two methods, one with transparent background it will generate alpha, and another when you use height map, for example zdepth or displace map it will generate proper height map for brush, but needs to make sure what is have pure black background for 3dcoat to generate proper alpha or it will draw with similar artifact like black lines or extrude rectangle in sculpting. I notice in zbrush this is not problem but for 3d coat it need pure black background.

I also notice it not big difference in 8bit and 16bit images, yes i know 8bit have 256colors gray scaled, it noticeable in render engine with displacement  but in 3d coat it is always have some artifacts at edges of brush and do not have so much details as render engine or zbrush

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When I test and asked here about png tiff PSD to making blush , there have been many infomation. 

Then my conculusion of that time was, Tif 16bit only offer best quarity blush for 3d coat.  PSD can not offer same quarity as Tiff.

The main problem for me is, I hope to make blush like smart material. that means, use different maps for each texture as I need.

If your paint app can not manage Tif channells, there is no way to apply each texture for Color, height, alpha, specular, mask.

As default usage, (simply sculpt with height map  and paint, as one color of current setting) I can use Tif format. With Gimp I can only use 2 channell.

(or I do not know how export as 3d coat blush, with keep channell)  

Though it is somehow greedy request, I really hope to see Blush editor, which can use each texure map, as same as material editor. (import each map as user need, then compose as one blush) ,  as same as PSD layer way.

 

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