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Modeling Room - Next Steps


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  • Carlosan changed the title to Modeling Room - Next Steps
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Here is my previous mail on the matter. I've given up on the modelling room since then since I don't think anything was fixed. In fact I'm sadly only using 3DCoat now for painting.

One bug UI problem I have with 3DCoat is that just moving,rotating and scaling individual objects is an absolute chore in general in 3d coat. These three transform tools should be no more than one click away, but in 3dCoat just to move an object is about 8 clicks through multiple unrelated menus or buttons you need to find each time. Its a UI nightmare!! Here is the current procees to move an object:

1-Dropdown click for tweak room, 2-click tweak room, 3-click select/Transform in tweak room, 4-click work mode select objects, 5-click on object, 6-click move button in tool options, 8-Finally click an drag gizmo!! :unknw: 

My point being - If the most basic transform tools aren't easy to work with , no wonder the modelling tool workflows have issues...

You should really check out other modelling packages for UI workflow. For instance MOI3D has about 20 buttons in total and I can model practically anything in it ...it has automatic guide snaps to objects grid, straight lines etc , super fast selection etc etc.. Cinema4d or Rocket3d are great reference points too.

Here are my modelling room specific issues:

I still can't understand the extrude tools in the low poly room. They are just not intuitive at all. For that matter, the whole low poly experience is extremely crude and infuriating.

Maybe I'm using it all wrong but the reason I upgraded was because I thought this would be a rapid way to create hard surface models. Currently its practically impossible and I just wonder if anyone else is using this room with any success? Is it just me that finds it impossible to use?

Some issues...

-I can only select an extrude tool if I choose one from the sub menu, not if I select the parent menu button.

-The extrude tools dont highlight when selected. Why not? Is this a tool that can only be used in conjunction with another tool. This should be made much clear as its just confusing as it is now.

-If I select Smart extrude, select a face a left click drag the face just gets moved. There seem to be no way to actual extrude a face with this tool.

-If I select Normal extrude, select a face a left click drag the face just gets moved. There seem to be no way to actual extrude a face with this tool.

-With either of those tools if i click off 3d coat into my second monitor and then click back into 3d coat the face is immediately moved to a far off arbitrary point in space.

-I cant seem to select multuiple faces easily. Do I really have to select the select tool to do this? There are so many steps to perform actions that should be done with the mouse buttons. If I need the select to to be able to actually use these tools, why isnt it just selected automatically or already have that functionality?

_ I really have to hit 'enter' EVERY time I want to commit an extrude? Why isn't it automatic and why enter? That involves me moving my hand waaay across the keyboard every time I want to extrude a single face. This should be automatic but If I DONT want to commit an extrusion I should just hold shift or something. 

-If not the above, commit extrusion should always be done automatically if a select new faces or deselect the faces.

-After manipulating a face there is no quick way to deselect the face and select another face. Shouldn't I just be able to click outside of the model to deselect it? I cant click any other face to either add to the selection OR replace the selected face.

-The only way to deselect faces (and therefore be able to select other faces) seems to be to go the popup menu and hit deselect all. This is VERY un-intuitive.

-Has this even been tested? Is there a video of someone using the low poly room efficiently? Maybe that would help.

 Have you tried the low poly modelling in other programs like Rocket 3D, Cinema 4d for example? Just copy them :)

..and I have no idea how to get my low poly mesh into the sculpt room at a decent resolution to start sculpting on. So many buttons, so little help.

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..and I'm just revisiting the room now (v2021.70) and here are some immediate issues I run into..

-I cant select/ modify anything on an existing imported polygon paint mesh.

..so that's the end of that then.

If its something Im doing wrong it should give me an obvious popup..'Cant paint on this type of mesh for whatever reason' But I get nothing ...so I have no idea why I cant select points or faces on this model.

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I'd like to preface by saying I really like the behavior and feel of the modeling room, it is /has been very welcome addition and I think you've done a good job with it so far :good:. It is with an asterix that one is also comfortable with retopo and sculpting rooms to some extent, that the modeling room compliments those. 

For a modeling room in 3DCoat, in my opinion it's purpose is better suited to helping user do the type of modeling jobs from scratch that are challenging to achieve via sculpt + retopo — it doesn't make sense to be a full on Modo, Silo or Blender or 3DS Max modeling experience.

For example, modeling something in model room, sending it to sculpt room, using the "conform to retopo" setting and using the Pose Tool to deform sculpt and retopo facilitates creating quite complex geometry otherwise hard to model from start. (Previously I used tweak room, but Pose Tool is so good now)

My number one suggestion for modeling room is a Bend Volume / Bend Along Curve type tool. 

(In this video it was one object bent so there are many copies, but one can also just bend one object along it's length, and control contour with the curve normal tangents)

It could work similar to the one present in sculpt room, except work with Poly Groups or with Model Panel models. If user just first worries about modeling a complex object on the XY plane first with clean topology, one could then deform it along a curve like so, then that has the potential to solve most any modeling job in isolation which is otherwise quite challenging!

That is without getting into CAD type subD tools or NURBS, which feel a bit out of scope for typical dcc asset pipeline, I don't have experience with those kinds of tools but I'm well aware of the usecases.

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modelling room should feel completely different to sculpting room...

all hotkeys in one room shouldnt affect the hotkeys in another room...

the circle around the cursor is very off putting when modelling

for me its all about the speed in which i can model,be it simple or complex

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Hi 

It would be nice if the modeling room can be differentiated from the others workspaces by using a more efficient layout of the tools.

An administration of the scene scales independent (global, local, normal).

An outliner that unifies the information and hierarchy of each mesh or curve (different from current using separate panels for each category)

Mesh metadata exposed and editable.

To have tools for polygonal and nurbs modeling, and being able to export the model for printing.

Idea: Would it be convenient to offer 3DC modeler as a standalone module, just as there is 3DC Textura ?

Thanks

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Carlosan
This post was recognized by Carlosan!

Евгений was awarded the badge 'Helpful' and 1 points.

On 14.11.2021 at 13:02, Grimmy said:

..и я просто сейчас возвращаюсь в комнату (v2021.70), и вот некоторые неотложные проблемы, с которыми я сталкиваюсь..

-Я не могу выбрать/ изменить что-либо в существующей импортированной сетке многоугольника.

..значит, на этом все и закончится.

Если я что-то делаю не так, это должно дать мне очевидное всплывающее окно ... "Не могу рисовать на этом типе сетки по какой-либо причине", Но я ничего не получаю ...поэтому я понятия не имею, почему я не могу выбрать точки или грани на этой модели.

1027950703_.thumb.jpg.6a737a81f5bc6f6acb2889cd6ef71b2f.jpg

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Я считаю комната моделинга отличная и все инструменты логичны и быстро доступны  в  1, 2 клика если настроить горячие клавиши , просто некоторые пользователи не хотят в них хорошенько разобраться .! . Единственное горячие клавиши в данной комнате надо сделать не зависимыми от других комнат и решить болезнь их постоянных слетаний .! Я считаю  дробить программу на отдельные модули плохая идея , она просто потеряет свою универсальность и уже ни чем не будет отличатся от других . Хотя 3D-Coat уже разделили  , это сугубо мое мнение .  

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also importing from the modelling room to sculpt should be as difficult as it seems...

for example if the mesh from modelling goes over just create a seperate layer to the root

just feel like alot of the ui is mashed together and could easily be simplified

the whole reason i went from zbrush to 3dcoat was based on the fact it would be easier and faster to use but honestly its slowing down my workflow so much....

im finding more and more bugs that ruin the mesh everyday and even though they are reported i feel like every update something else breaks, i know thats just development but there is way too much going on,

for example the node system i honestly dont know a single soul whos used it or any tutorials on it,
bad_bevel_tool.thumb.jpg.b599c6c845f2b3e7934af343bba63315.jpg

 

bevel tool has some basic issues

voxelizing the mesh and autopo fixed the issue

 

UI.thumb.jpg.a8f1ef7c2899e1ef7c548587d574502d.jpg

 

the menus are confusing as hell... red box can be removed and circled layers shouldnt have so many options...

curves and mesh should be gathered into one layer, simple layout that can be named specific things

the tools below that can be added to the side panel while you are modelling, being able to just switch from one room to another needs to be more simple

retopos are places in new layers not a seperate room

many a space bar menu for search tools that doesnt involve space,a,1 or some sort of configuration because who can actually remember those sequences???

, things like edit pose falloff just has no explaination

simple but more imformative ui,

this is really why alot of people dont use 3dcoat or ever see videos comparing 3dcoat to others because its simply not very user friendly

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50 minutes ago, Gorbatovsky said:

Second fillet must be less than the first

ahh ok, im hoping you dont think im being horrible with my post, just really think the ui needs alot of work ,

its difficult to navigate and use features , there is no way of learning about the tools.

its all about a speedy workflow for me and the modelling especially

back to basics would be nice ,bevelling using the scroll wheel and drag to determine distance etc... its a nice workflow and more precise

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2 hours ago, Elemeno said:

ahh ok, im hoping you dont think im being horrible with my post

1. Andrew will finalize the problem with Hotkeys.
2. We need to prioritize. The common tree of objects in our plan.
3. We still need to polish on UI.

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On 22.11.2021 at 21:23, Gorbatovsky said:

1. Эндрю завершит решение проблемы с горячими клавишами.
2. Нам нужно расставить приоритеты. Общее дерево объектов в нашем плане.
3. Нам все еще нужно отшлифовать пользовательский интерфейс.

Здравствуйте . Может рассмотрите вариант Pie Menu , у многих используется , быстрый доступ к инструментам и действиям в нужный момент под курсором   , особенно если есть возможность пользовательского добавления инструментов . И не плохо разгружает интерфейс и поиск .  

 

Безымянный.jpg

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On 11/22/2021 at 3:23 PM, Gorbatovsky said:

2. We need to prioritize. The common tree of objects in our plan.

Are you going to join everything in one Panel or are going to implement access to datablocks using Dependency Graph nodes to modify attributes ?

 

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1 hour ago, Carlosan said:

Are you going to join everything in one Panel

I told about a Common Tree.
See picture from Render Room.  Sculpt Object, and Paint Object.

image.png

We can Transform and Copy Sculpt Object, and can't Paint Object.
Next Step - Edition of an Objects in Node Editor.

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On 11/14/2021 at 3:54 AM, Grimmy said:

Here is my previous mail on the matter. I've given up on the modelling room since then since I don't think anything was fixed. In fact I'm sadly only using 3DCoat now for painting.

One bug UI problem I have with 3DCoat is that just moving,rotating and scaling individual objects is an absolute chore in general in 3d coat. These three transform tools should be no more than one click away, but in 3dCoat just to move an object is about 8 clicks through multiple unrelated menus or buttons you need to find each time. Its a UI nightmare!! Here is the current procees to move an object:

1-Dropdown click for tweak room, 2-click tweak room, 3-click select/Transform in tweak room, 4-click work mode select objects, 5-click on object, 6-click move button in tool options, 8-Finally click an drag gizmo!! :unknw: 

My point being - If the most basic transform tools aren't easy to work with , no wonder the modelling tool workflows have issues...

You should really check out other modelling packages for UI workflow. For instance MOI3D has about 20 buttons in total and I can model practically anything in it ...it has automatic guide snaps to objects grid, straight lines etc , super fast selection etc etc.. Cinema4d or Rocket3d are great reference points too.

Here are my modelling room specific issues:

I still can't understand the extrude tools in the low poly room. They are just not intuitive at all. For that matter, the whole low poly experience is extremely crude and infuriating.

Maybe I'm using it all wrong but the reason I upgraded was because I thought this would be a rapid way to create hard surface models. Currently its practically impossible and I just wonder if anyone else is using this room with any success? Is it just me that finds it impossible to use?

Some issues...

-I can only select an extrude tool if I choose one from the sub menu, not if I select the parent menu button.

-The extrude tools dont highlight when selected. Why not? Is this a tool that can only be used in conjunction with another tool. This should be made much clear as its just confusing as it is now.

-If I select Smart extrude, select a face a left click drag the face just gets moved. There seem to be no way to actual extrude a face with this tool.

-If I select Normal extrude, select a face a left click drag the face just gets moved. There seem to be no way to actual extrude a face with this tool.

-With either of those tools if i click off 3d coat into my second monitor and then click back into 3d coat the face is immediately moved to a far off arbitrary point in space.

-I cant seem to select multuiple faces easily. Do I really have to select the select tool to do this? There are so many steps to perform actions that should be done with the mouse buttons. If I need the select to to be able to actually use these tools, why isnt it just selected automatically or already have that functionality?

_ I really have to hit 'enter' EVERY time I want to commit an extrude? Why isn't it automatic and why enter? That involves me moving my hand waaay across the keyboard every time I want to extrude a single face. This should be automatic but If I DONT want to commit an extrusion I should just hold shift or something. 

-If not the above, commit extrusion should always be done automatically if a select new faces or deselect the faces.

-After manipulating a face there is no quick way to deselect the face and select another face. Shouldn't I just be able to click outside of the model to deselect it? I cant click any other face to either add to the selection OR replace the selected face.

-The only way to deselect faces (and therefore be able to select other faces) seems to be to go the popup menu and hit deselect all. This is VERY un-intuitive.

-Has this even been tested? Is there a video of someone using the low poly room efficiently? Maybe that would help.

 Have you tried the low poly modelling in other programs like Rocket 3D, Cinema 4d for example? Just copy them :)

..and I have no idea how to get my low poly mesh into the sculpt room at a decent resolution to start sculpting on. So many buttons, so little help.

Let’s be honest here rocket3d is daunting and it has its bugs I should know I helped beta test in back when it was voidworld!  I had it completely crash to the desktop on me today granted it’s only dx9 and requires slimdx...  that being said once I get past the new user throw everything on the screen at once part of it I’m sure it will be fine.  But for example I spent hours today just trying to get the mirroring option to work correctly in rocket3d.  Now 3dcoat does suffer from the same thing.  Now u know why I want the option to emulate another app as it used to do.  Such as soft image or maya, 3D studio Max ..

 

the reason being is your right the modeling room is super hard to use currently.  You also can’t install other hot keys file because 3dcoat expects the file extension to be hotkeys in the load hotkeys under preferences.  This will not work as everyone knows the file extensions in 2021 are *.xml 

Anyways I do think it can b fixed though, it just needs someone to figure out how to make a totally new theme file complete with tool shortcuts.  Yes you can change colors currently..  this will not work, it needs to be light fast and smooth.  Like the original voidworld before they added radial menus and a ton of clutter and options that no one uses let alone understands all the tools on the screen or a accidental click all the sudden u have selected some option u don’t even know about.

you are right about the out of control vertex or disappearing objects I have had the same experience using my Wacom tablet monitor.

 

andrew I could help u redesign the menus and stuff tools etc themes in the modeling room.  I see we’re just using an xml file so it can’t be hard to make our own options and press and hotkeys and theme files.  We just need an example to follow

 

im going to start looking at the xml files and make some copies of them to see what I can change using a text editor like visual studio code.  I might have to rename the extension for import to hotkeys as that is what it is currently searching for in hotkeys load screen.  If anyone else can help we need as many apps emulated as we can get an ez one very much like 3dcoat is blender, maybe if we’re lucky they have their format in xml also them all we got to change is what tools the hotkeys activate.   Then rename it blender.hotkeys and try loading it up.

 

andrew can’t do everything his self guys he is a coding guru, probably better than me and that is saying something.

 

if anyone knows where the old themes we had back then for even voidworld to emulate other packages maybe we can make some of those work.  I just happen to have the old versions installed not by accident, I’m needing to model some mechs badly but right now the modeling packages are winning.  The interface should ez to use, if u look at a tool button u should instantly know what to do.  Also, we need options for working with objects, faces is not enough.  Also, vertex welding should b too ez.  Also creating of faces around those verts, the ability to tweak and work kinda like silo3d used to be.  ALSO AND THIS ONE IS SOO IMPORTANT IM WRITING IT UN ALL CAPS — symmetry / mirroring should b so ez to setup, and understand I don’t know which one I’m supposed to be using doesn’t matter it’s so buggy I stopped using it.  Like if I mirror and object across the x or y axis, it should just work, like if I them grab one of the two objects to move it away from origin the other object should also move away from the origin, currently the mirror image just sits there.  Now if I do Juliet both and move them toward the right instead of the other object moving left it moves right with my original object.

 

another major fixing point has to be the reference images, I still haven’t figured out how to delete them instead of just hiding them, because hiding them causes probs down the road, like when you create a new reference image like magic the hidden ref images pop back up, try it, create and load a ref image in a dif axis, then hide it, goto the front view and add a new ref image then rotate the view around and u will see those other ref images.  I want to b able to make a cube deform it easily into a mech foot or whatever I decide to model.  I also want to b able to make a new set of verts floating in air then connect the verts to make faces, then try to weld those verts to the box and b able to tweak it this is how most of us model.  Either all verts and faces

again ref images are key!!!!!!!

if we don’t do low poly making verts and faces we use a method called box deformation, we should b able to easily do this! All the time connecting the new verts by welding them because merge doesn’t work right I don’t care what u set the tolerance too.  I’ve tried the default, then a half a meter and it still would not snap them together and weld them.

 

this is the kind of feedback Andrew needs.  If we don’t tell him he won’t know what needs to be fixed.

 

I hope this helps Andrew,

Ken Cornett - author of 3dobuilder

aka storm36969 on Twitch 

and storm3_6969 on YT

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On 11/14/2021 at 4:02 AM, Grimmy said:

..and I'm just revisiting the room now (v2021.70) and here are some immediate issues I run into..

-I cant select/ modify anything on an existing imported polygon paint mesh.

..so that's the end of that then.

If its something Im doing wrong it should give me an obvious popup..'Cant paint on this type of mesh for whatever reason' But I get nothing ...so I have no idea why I cant select points or faces on this model.

I know your problem is about u have to select at the beginning load model for painting!

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Hi @Gorbatovsky

You asked to write in this thread, although I created a thread for this problem a long time ago =)

But it was still not solved.

I found a solution with changing the resolution to smaller, for example 512*512px - then I do a blur and go back to 4K. But here is another problem - when I change to 512*512px, small details that were drawn in 4K are lost. I wish they were saved, like in Substance Painter for example.

That is, there are two solutions to the problem:

1. Just add more power to Shift so that we can blur the edges - like in Maya or Mudbox( like in 512*512px)
2. Solve the problem with saving details from 4K when switching to 512*512 and back.

Video with demonstration -
At 4:08 - I show the problem with the loss of detail.

Thank you and have a great day
Best regards,
Andrew.

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Hi @Gorbatovsky

And about plane in Teya Conceptor =) I think we need something simillar in 3D-Coat.

It is very handy for KitBash and Sculpt.

Video:

 

 

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Hi @Gorbatovsky

It would be cool if we could add such a Workflow to 3D-Coat. It is often very necessary.

For example, you make a model for the client, draw different masks... And then the client changes the model wireframe and UV... And makes a model with UDIM, not one channel...

Just this method in MARI helps to solve the problem of transferring all the masks and textures to the new model - https://texturing.xyz/pages/transferring-single-uv-to-udim

Please add this to 3D-Coat =)

Thank you and have a great day
Best regards,
Andrew.

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This feature is currently available.

Suppose you paint a mesh with 1 uvset

1 uvLayout.jpg

 

And have modified mesh with other uvlayout with uDims

4 udim.jpg

 

On the original project -with one UV layout- switch to Retopo workspace and import udim's mesh using Mesh > Import. (dont snap vertex)

Then Bake, import Option Panel popups

Bake.jpg

 

- Jump to paint Room, all previous texture paint was baked to new mesh w/udims

Udims_2.jpg

 

- File > Export objects and textures. Export UVsets must be set to ON.

Export UVsets.jpg

Hope it help

cubeudim.3b.jpg

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